thenumberone : What most people forget is that the version of the health care reform bill that passed was the version that the Republicans altered drastically and it isn't what Obama had originally wanted... but he took the hit to get key issues through (like no denial because of pre-existing conditions). A lot of the other things that people do not like are the things that the Republicans added in. But instead of blaming Congress for the bill that THEY made, they are encouraged to go after the President who proposed it in the first place.

And yes, this nation is full of hypocrites. Hypocrites that have purposely lived in misguided ignorance since the 1950s and wouldn't know what socialism, communism, or true selflessness was it if hit them in the head with a baseball bat.

Elara : thats true,wasnt the first version thrown out,and an altered one narowly pased?if people want his ideas he needs more support but theyv pretty much sided with the republicans.i wasnt impressed they imediately tried to revoke the health bill,such greed i find to be infuriating.
Obama is very popular in europe for predominantly 2 reasons.
1,he can actualy string a sentence together
2,unlike bush he dosent go around insulting all the european countrys,something some americans dislike about him.many were up in arms when he apologised for bushes treatment of france when they refused to support the waq in iraq without proof,bush wasted no time in publicly calling them cowards.
I think hes tried really hard but the odds were stacked against him,im impressed he managed to do what he has.
And your closing comment made me laugh. =p

America is based on freedom.

We're a free country, right?

Obama is forcing me to legally purchase something I don't necessarily want. If I have to pay for health care and I have to buy the government's version, that's taking away my freedom.

Do you know how poorly public schools are run? Have you ever been to the post office, the DMV/RMV/County Clerk/Satelite City Hall and tried to get a drivers license? Now imagine that as how it's run when you need surgery.

Free markets keep things less expensive because everyone is competing for business. A free market economy gives us the cheapest available good and services because of competition. The government is now ramming this down our throats and there is no competition. That means prices go up and I have to pay for other people. I'm healthy, I make good decisions, I don't smoke, I don't drink and drive, I live a good, healthy, low-risk life. My insurance premiums are negligible. Now my rates go skyhigh because of the fat, lazy, careless, diabetic, risk-makers who will all need heart surgery when they're 45 years old because they never went outside to go for a walk. How is that fair?

As far as I'm concerned, I have no responsibility to others. I'm responsible for myself and my decisions. This is freedom. The government is there to defend property rights, give some sense of fair redistribution of wealth, and ensure we have a working capitalist economy.

The government isn't my father. I don't demand all these things. I go out and get them for myself. That's what made this country so great. Now we're stuck with everyone demanding money from the gov't. Who said we're owed anything?

I hate the way Obama makes us dependant on the government's nipple when we want anything. If I don't get to choose which health care provider I want and costs go up, that's not fair to me. I get no choice.

And suddenly we live like socialists. It won't work. Sweden works because they pay 80% taxes and they have a small populationm (10 million) and a hemogenous population (80% Swede/5% Finn). The Unitd States has 350 million people and is a hodge-podge of culture. You can't point at Sweden and say, "See, it could here."

It can't. And Obama is going to crush us trying to do it.

warmaker : the tax rate in sweden is 32% not 80, the highest tax rate is in denmark and is 50%...
america is in no way socialist, i dont think you truely understand what socialism is, or you wouldnt say so.
Norway is socialist and rich, germany, france, uk, moderately socialist, very wealthy.
That dosent make much sense, the uk runs healthcare and so we dont get charged extra, america its a buissiness so you are paying the costs plus extra, its not possible for it to be cheaper.

thenumberone : You're right. The taxation was way lower than I said. And I never said America is socialist. We're nowhere near socialist. We have market-driven economies.

And if socialism isn't public ownership and jointly-agreed dispersement of goods and services than I don't know what it is. I'm sure you'll gladly fill me in on the finer points.

Here is how it is possible for our healthcare to be cheaper:

The U.K. government decides, however they do, that it costs X amount of pounds per person to have insurance. I don't know what you pay so you can inform me. Insurance, all kinds, is about the company providing a promised amount of money to cover unexpected disaster. They have to make money if they're privately owned so they charge me slightly more than they anticipate paying out. This is called underwriting.

As an individual, I drive only 12,000 miles a year, I wear a seatbelt, I don't skydive, I exercise and maintain a healty lifestyle, I eat healthy, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, I live in a safe place, I have regular employment, and I'm educated. My rates are going to be very low because no one anticipates I'll go to the hospital. If I do, it will most likely be a short stay because I am strong and will be healthy soon.

I pay very little.

Sure, the fat guy who has a history of heart disease, drinks, is obese, never wears his seatbelt, and smokes will pay 20 times what I do because his risk is higher. But my costs are low.

A government would have to balance out these costs. The fat guy's taxes come down because it would be equally spread around, as the government is fair to everyone. My costs would go up because I have to bare the responsibility of taking care of the massive risk of the other guy. The U.S. is unfit, unhealthy, and a lot of people have long stays in hospitals and die early. I, being healthy, never having any doctor visits, will be punished by my countrymen.

That's how my individual costs will go up.

warmaker : each uk taxpayer pays around £1,900 a year for the nhs(the national health service,which is the oldest singular health service in the world)i dont know how the exchange rates doing right now,if its not changed recently that'd make it around $3000 annualy.under this system citizens get free medical,free gp's,free dental and free eyetests(although most lenses you have to pay for).in some uk regions prescription drugs are also free.
You said we live like socialists,which is apparently not the context you meant it in.
Socialism does not necesarily mean public ownership and strict state control,thats more communism which is an extreme and unworkable type of socialism.socialism is simply where the government is heavily involved in improving the quality of life of its citizens,whereas capitalism is when the major drive is behind promoting the growth of national buisiness.that would be both systems at there most basic and the easiest way to think of it.
See in my view i would prefer a reformed system here,those with legitimate illnesses that are not self inflicted would get it free, those who smoke regularly/eat junk all day would get free help but if they needed medical would exect to pay the difference.that would be fair i think.
On top of that the tax could vary after a health exam.it would,therefore,cost you even less for medical.

thenumberone : It is a tax break for employer-provided health insurance I believe. It distorts the composition of compensation away from cash, reduces labor mobility, biases people towards greater demand for that sector while also moving responsibility for that consumption to third parties.

I don't support removing it because that amounts to a tax increase, but I think it should be addressed as much as it can with a tax break for a non-employer-provided insurance. Perhaps at the very least, replace it with such but I don't trust the politicians to keep that deal and the same goes for "broaden the base, lower the rate". I also support addressing the negatives of the mortgage interest deduction with a tax break for renting. Well, ultimately, the elimination of the income tax since the true distortion is the tax.

I'm pretty sure that even in your country taxes are paid, some rationing is done, time is spent educating, and so on. It isn't free. It might have or often have by law a zero price, but free it is not.

He's not great he's not awful. Remember though, it's not the president that makes the nation it's the nation. America is as America does. Not America is what Obama does.

TheMichaelOnline : it is free,do you think if they scraped it they would lower the tax?wishfull thinking.in the uk they have preset tax rates,upon recieval of the years major tax and estimates of due taxes in the following months they set out how much will go to what.would i rather have it spent killing muslims or healing brits?its an easy question for me.
I should add the brunt of the nhs is paid for through the rich,they increased tax on them after ww2 to fund it.

I do not like Obama. I've never been fond of any of our presidents, because of the changes they promise to make, and being one of the few to realize half the crap they promise they cant just up and change. I didnt come to actually hate the man until the whole Osama thing. What kind of idiot would really claim him as a great president due to him catching this criminal? As far as I am aware, Obama didn't storm into a fire-fight with a M-16 and take down a major terrorist. But there he was, waving to crowds who applauded him with his great acheivment. The great men and women who risked their lives to stop this man are the heros. Obama is just another moocher who uses others actions to promote his Presidency.