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Goth

 

02-02-11 08:31 PM
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I'm not positive on where this should go, but the Society sub forum seems to fit. I had no idea what to put as the title, so I kept it basic.

In the most polite way I can ask, what is the meaning behind being Goth? I know some people say it in a way that is meant to be an insult. I try to be open-minded, but I don't understand it at all. What I have seen is a girl who was completely covered in a mix of black clothes, black makeup, and chains.

I don't understand why people do it or the meaning behind it (assuming there is one). Would anyone care to explain?

You can also share your personal opinions if you want.


EDIT: After reading the_casualty's response, I realized that I have always lumped emo and goth together. I thought they were the same.

Replies can be about either one now.
I'm not positive on where this should go, but the Society sub forum seems to fit. I had no idea what to put as the title, so I kept it basic.

In the most polite way I can ask, what is the meaning behind being Goth? I know some people say it in a way that is meant to be an insult. I try to be open-minded, but I don't understand it at all. What I have seen is a girl who was completely covered in a mix of black clothes, black makeup, and chains.

I don't understand why people do it or the meaning behind it (assuming there is one). Would anyone care to explain?

You can also share your personal opinions if you want.


EDIT: After reading the_casualty's response, I realized that I have always lumped emo and goth together. I thought they were the same.

Replies can be about either one now.
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(edited by BNuge on 02-02-11 08:50 PM)    

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02-02-11 08:40 PM
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This is probably in the right section. Although, I can also see it in the Cafe Corner.

First off, lets make sure you're not confusing "emo" and "goth". In emo styles, the goal is to look like a rock star by shopping at "punk and harcore" stores like Hot Topic. I kinda see a little of that in me, but it really isn't my goal, I am myself, and I dabble in a little bit of everything.

Gothic styles are different. They have been around for hundreds of years. I think it has to do with worshipping the devil or something. Also, you have to wear lots of black and fishnets. And, you must be a vampire, and like bats. Basically its a darkness type style, where as the emo styles can be bright.
This is probably in the right section. Although, I can also see it in the Cafe Corner.

First off, lets make sure you're not confusing "emo" and "goth". In emo styles, the goal is to look like a rock star by shopping at "punk and harcore" stores like Hot Topic. I kinda see a little of that in me, but it really isn't my goal, I am myself, and I dabble in a little bit of everything.

Gothic styles are different. They have been around for hundreds of years. I think it has to do with worshipping the devil or something. Also, you have to wear lots of black and fishnets. And, you must be a vampire, and like bats. Basically its a darkness type style, where as the emo styles can be bright.
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02-03-11 01:30 PM
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I've seen no difference in "goth" or "emo" styles lately. Everyone who claims to be either looks the same to me; all black clothing, pale face, eyeliner, dark-colored or black hair, fishnets, chains, spiked studs, and either a depressed or angry expression at all times, even while sleeping. I was described as "goth" back in high school for wearing a trench coat in the winter and wearing predominantly black clothes. This whole "emo" movement has me confused. It sounds as though someone wasn't happy with just being goth, and tried to find a way to take it a step further.
I've seen no difference in "goth" or "emo" styles lately. Everyone who claims to be either looks the same to me; all black clothing, pale face, eyeliner, dark-colored or black hair, fishnets, chains, spiked studs, and either a depressed or angry expression at all times, even while sleeping. I was described as "goth" back in high school for wearing a trench coat in the winter and wearing predominantly black clothes. This whole "emo" movement has me confused. It sounds as though someone wasn't happy with just being goth, and tried to find a way to take it a step further.
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02-03-11 04:46 PM
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I like to dress goth/punk/deathrocker, but not emo.

Goth as in black corsets, gloves, spikey collars, ripped leggings, fishnet shirts, platform boots, lots of studded belts and bracelets, chokers, chain necklaces, high heels, etc. I'm exclusively in it for the fashion side of it. I'm a happy person and I listen to happy music for the most part.

Emo is basically tight pants, a band T-shirt, and a swept-over haircut. Plus you can also wear rainbow, electric blue, etc. and it's still emo. A lot different than goth IMO. I don't see how it's "further" than goth when it's actually a common thing and there's no obscure clothing invovled.
I like to dress goth/punk/deathrocker, but not emo.

Goth as in black corsets, gloves, spikey collars, ripped leggings, fishnet shirts, platform boots, lots of studded belts and bracelets, chokers, chain necklaces, high heels, etc. I'm exclusively in it for the fashion side of it. I'm a happy person and I listen to happy music for the most part.

Emo is basically tight pants, a band T-shirt, and a swept-over haircut. Plus you can also wear rainbow, electric blue, etc. and it's still emo. A lot different than goth IMO. I don't see how it's "further" than goth when it's actually a common thing and there's no obscure clothing invovled.
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02-03-11 11:02 PM
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To me, goth is someone who dresses up in a dark fashion, with no sense of brightness in it, really. I haven't met many goth people, so I can't confirm this, just using what I've learned from society :/
To me, goth is someone who dresses up in a dark fashion, with no sense of brightness in it, really. I haven't met many goth people, so I can't confirm this, just using what I've learned from society :/
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02-03-11 11:05 PM
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I believe that Gothics worship the devil which explains why they're covered in dark clothing/hair/make up. To plead their allegiance to Satan....don't know how to true it is but thats my opinion.


Emos are more rock star groupies that dress up in order to look different and stand out. That is why most of their wardrobes are colorful, weird looking and different. They try to make themselves that way. They hate fitting in with the norm of society.
I believe that Gothics worship the devil which explains why they're covered in dark clothing/hair/make up. To plead their allegiance to Satan....don't know how to true it is but thats my opinion.


Emos are more rock star groupies that dress up in order to look different and stand out. That is why most of their wardrobes are colorful, weird looking and different. They try to make themselves that way. They hate fitting in with the norm of society.
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And some emos, after mellowing out/calming down, became hipsters, a different evil all their own...
And some emos, after mellowing out/calming down, became hipsters, a different evil all their own...
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YourMajestyKen : No offense, but that's the one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. I dress in goth clothing, and that has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. I don't wear black to pledge alleigance to Satan, and neither do any of my goth friends... It's just a colour. I can't believe some people are so judgemental. Someone must have injected propaganda into your brain at a young age... *Shakes head sadly*
YourMajestyKen : No offense, but that's the one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. I dress in goth clothing, and that has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. I don't wear black to pledge alleigance to Satan, and neither do any of my goth friends... It's just a colour. I can't believe some people are so judgemental. Someone must have injected propaganda into your brain at a young age... *Shakes head sadly*
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Annette : LOL, I didn't mean literally....the goths that I'm aware of worship the devil and that is their reason for wearing dark clothing. They say it's symbolic to the devil...not saying every person in the world that wears gothic clothing is a devil worshipper so If I offended you or anyone else I apologize.
Annette : LOL, I didn't mean literally....the goths that I'm aware of worship the devil and that is their reason for wearing dark clothing. They say it's symbolic to the devil...not saying every person in the world that wears gothic clothing is a devil worshipper so If I offended you or anyone else I apologize.
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02-04-11 05:04 PM
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Wow you people are ignorant.

Goths don't worship Satan. Some might, but that is like saying you can tell all Christians because they were plaid shirts.

Why do goths dress like they do? Because it is a type of social rebellion just like the punk movement. Emo came out of both of those movements, and honestly I have seen them as whiny goths ever since the movement started.

And to simplify... I am just going to copy/paste the ideology section of the wiki page

Defining an explicit ideology for the gothic subculture is difficult for several reasons. First is the overwhelming importance of mood and aesthetic for those involved. This is, in part, inspired by romanticism and neoromanticism. The allure for goths of dark, mysterious, and morbid imagery and mood lies in the same tradition of Romanticism's gothic novel. During the late 18th and 19th century, feelings of horror and supernatural dread were widespread motifs in popular literature; the process continues in the modern horror film. Balancing this emphasis on mood and aesthetics, another central element of the gothic is a deliberate sense of camp theatricality and self-dramatization, present both in gothic literature as well as in the gothic subculture itself.

Goths, in terms of their membership in the subculture, are usually not supportive of violence, but are tolerant of alternative lifestyles that incorporate themes such as BDSM—always involving consent. Many in the media[who?] have incorrectly associated the Goth subculture with violence, hatred of minorities, and other acts of hate. However, violence and hate do not form elements of goth ideology; rather, the ideology is formed in part by recognition, identification, and grief over societal and personal evils that the mainstream culture wishes to ignore or forget. These are the prevalent themes in goth music.

The second impediment to explicitly defining a gothic ideology is goth's generally apolitical nature. While individual defiance of social norms was socially risky in the 19th century, today it is far less socially radical. Thus, the significance of goth's subcultural rebellion is limited, and it draws on imagery at the heart of Western culture. Unlike the hippie or punk movements, the goth subculture has no pronounced political messages or cries for social activism. The subculture is marked by its emphasis on individualism, tolerance for diversity, a strong emphasis on creativity, tendency toward intellectualism, and a mild tendency towards cynicism, but even these ideas are not universal to all goths. Goth ideology is based far more on aesthetics and simplified ethics than politics.

Unlike punk, there are few clashes between political affiliation and being "goth". Similarly, there is no common religious tie that binds together the goth movement, though spiritual, supernatural, and religious imagery has played a part in gothic fashion, song lyrics and visual art. In particular, aesthetic elements from Catholicism often appear in goth culture. Reasons for donning such imagery range from expression of religious affiliation to satire or simply decorative effect. Regardless, there is a general tolerance for religious beliefs, and everyone including strict Catholics, atheists, and polytheists are accepted.

While involvement with the subculture can be fulfilling, it also can be risky depending on where the goth lives, especially for the young, because of the negative attention it can attract due to public misconceptions of goth subculture. The value that young people find in the movement is evinced by its continuing existence after other subcultures of the eighties (such as the New Romantics) have died out.
Wow you people are ignorant.

Goths don't worship Satan. Some might, but that is like saying you can tell all Christians because they were plaid shirts.

Why do goths dress like they do? Because it is a type of social rebellion just like the punk movement. Emo came out of both of those movements, and honestly I have seen them as whiny goths ever since the movement started.

And to simplify... I am just going to copy/paste the ideology section of the
wiki page

Defining an explicit ideology for the gothic subculture is difficult for several reasons. First is the overwhelming importance of mood and aesthetic for those involved. This is, in part, inspired by romanticism and neoromanticism. The allure for goths of dark, mysterious, and morbid imagery and mood lies in the same tradition of Romanticism's gothic novel. During the late 18th and 19th century, feelings of horror and supernatural dread were widespread motifs in popular literature; the process continues in the modern horror film. Balancing this emphasis on mood and aesthetics, another central element of the gothic is a deliberate sense of camp theatricality and self-dramatization, present both in gothic literature as well as in the gothic subculture itself.

Goths, in terms of their membership in the subculture, are usually not supportive of violence, but are tolerant of alternative lifestyles that incorporate themes such as BDSM—always involving consent. Many in the media[who?] have incorrectly associated the Goth subculture with violence, hatred of minorities, and other acts of hate. However, violence and hate do not form elements of goth ideology; rather, the ideology is formed in part by recognition, identification, and grief over societal and personal evils that the mainstream culture wishes to ignore or forget. These are the prevalent themes in goth music.

The second impediment to explicitly defining a gothic ideology is goth's generally apolitical nature. While individual defiance of social norms was socially risky in the 19th century, today it is far less socially radical. Thus, the significance of goth's subcultural rebellion is limited, and it draws on imagery at the heart of Western culture. Unlike the hippie or punk movements, the goth subculture has no pronounced political messages or cries for social activism. The subculture is marked by its emphasis on individualism, tolerance for diversity, a strong emphasis on creativity, tendency toward intellectualism, and a mild tendency towards cynicism, but even these ideas are not universal to all goths. Goth ideology is based far more on aesthetics and simplified ethics than politics.

Unlike punk, there are few clashes between political affiliation and being "goth". Similarly, there is no common religious tie that binds together the goth movement, though spiritual, supernatural, and religious imagery has played a part in gothic fashion, song lyrics and visual art. In particular, aesthetic elements from Catholicism often appear in goth culture. Reasons for donning such imagery range from expression of religious affiliation to satire or simply decorative effect. Regardless, there is a general tolerance for religious beliefs, and everyone including strict Catholics, atheists, and polytheists are accepted.

While involvement with the subculture can be fulfilling, it also can be risky depending on where the goth lives, especially for the young, because of the negative attention it can attract due to public misconceptions of goth subculture. The value that young people find in the movement is evinced by its continuing existence after other subcultures of the eighties (such as the New Romantics) have died out.
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Elara : Thank you for posting that... Obviously we're on the same page.
Elara : Thank you for posting that... Obviously we're on the same page.
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Annette : You are welcome. I was part of the goth movement back in high school and early college, so I know a lot about it... but copy/pasting wikipedia is just so much easier.
Annette : You are welcome. I was part of the goth movement back in high school and early college, so I know a lot about it... but copy/pasting wikipedia is just so much easier.
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I didn't mean to offend anyone, my opinion was asked and I posted it. Being called ignorant for stating your opinion is ignorant within itself.
I didn't mean to offend anyone, my opinion was asked and I posted it. Being called ignorant for stating your opinion is ignorant within itself.
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Assuming that Goths worship Satan because they wear black is ignorant, I am sorry but it is true, because it shows that you do not have knowledge about the subculture. It is the same as assuming that if you are white you are racist... that if you talk with a southern accent that you are a moron, that if you are a female wearing a short dress that you are a s***. You are taking appearance and linking it to something totally unrelated and unverifiable by looks alone.

And I think that you don't really know what ignorant means. It means you are lacking knowledge. It isn't an insult, it is a statement of fact, and it was directed at more than just you. If I had called you an idiot, then I can see you bristling and getting defensive like you are, but I didn't so I do not appreciate your hostility and I demand an apology because now you HAVE offended me.
Assuming that Goths worship Satan because they wear black is ignorant, I am sorry but it is true, because it shows that you do not have knowledge about the subculture. It is the same as assuming that if you are white you are racist... that if you talk with a southern accent that you are a moron, that if you are a female wearing a short dress that you are a s***. You are taking appearance and linking it to something totally unrelated and unverifiable by looks alone.

And I think that you don't really know what ignorant means. It means you are lacking knowledge. It isn't an insult, it is a statement of fact, and it was directed at more than just you. If I had called you an idiot, then I can see you bristling and getting defensive like you are, but I didn't so I do not appreciate your hostility and I demand an apology because now you HAVE offended me.
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As of late, its become harder to discern emo from goth. Emo has become a style where the person listens to forms of metal about love, loss, and other extreme emotions. Their dress, while similar to goth, has differences such as-wearing striped black and another oolor(usually purple)clothing. Hair is another difference, in which emos usually have semi-long hair with a some sort of color in it. Goth is more about hardcore metal, and relishes on subjects like death and violence, not devil worship(at least not for all). Goths usually wear baggy clothing(emo has tight ones), have hairstyles that almost always involve long hair, have some sort of clothing that has spikes or studs. Although you cant label someone based on appearances like this, most people will actually fit more into one than the other. Although I'd like to say that emo and goth are ideals, there are so many different ways people express them that emo and goth cant be an ideal like they were when they started. now pretty much anyone can grab spiked armbands, a pair of Tripp pants, and a Behemoth cd and call themselves goth, or something similar to be emo.
As of late, its become harder to discern emo from goth. Emo has become a style where the person listens to forms of metal about love, loss, and other extreme emotions. Their dress, while similar to goth, has differences such as-wearing striped black and another oolor(usually purple)clothing. Hair is another difference, in which emos usually have semi-long hair with a some sort of color in it. Goth is more about hardcore metal, and relishes on subjects like death and violence, not devil worship(at least not for all). Goths usually wear baggy clothing(emo has tight ones), have hairstyles that almost always involve long hair, have some sort of clothing that has spikes or studs. Although you cant label someone based on appearances like this, most people will actually fit more into one than the other. Although I'd like to say that emo and goth are ideals, there are so many different ways people express them that emo and goth cant be an ideal like they were when they started. now pretty much anyone can grab spiked armbands, a pair of Tripp pants, and a Behemoth cd and call themselves goth, or something similar to be emo.
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YourMajestyKen : I do not worship the devil, I'd be more offended if I haven't heard this a hundred times already. The only goths that would are the fake ones that are jocks one day and then the next they turn into a "goth" by going to a Hot Topic store. The only good thing to come out of that store are Tripp pants (they're so damn comfortable). Yes that post was ignorant but as Elara says ignorant means that you are lacking the knowledge. I've never gotten why black and generally dark clothing means evil. Almost all crimes and evils that are committed are done by people who are wearing "normal" light clothing. Even if you didn't mean for it to be it still comes across as offensive.

the_casualty : I am not a vampire and I don't care for bats


Elara : I <3 you. That copypasta saves me some time and it does a pretty good job of defining something that can be hard to define.

I would love to get into how there are so many different sub-cultures within the gothic culture its self but I have to go to my place o'fancy learnin.

YourMajestyKen : I do not worship the devil, I'd be more offended if I haven't heard this a hundred times already. The only goths that would are the fake ones that are jocks one day and then the next they turn into a "goth" by going to a Hot Topic store. The only good thing to come out of that store are Tripp pants (they're so damn comfortable). Yes that post was ignorant but as Elara says ignorant means that you are lacking the knowledge. I've never gotten why black and generally dark clothing means evil. Almost all crimes and evils that are committed are done by people who are wearing "normal" light clothing. Even if you didn't mean for it to be it still comes across as offensive.

the_casualty : I am not a vampire and I don't care for bats


Elara : I <3 you. That copypasta saves me some time and it does a pretty good job of defining something that can be hard to define.

I would love to get into how there are so many different sub-cultures within the gothic culture its self but I have to go to my place o'fancy learnin.

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Zamiel : Thanks for the compliment. And yeah, I found it easier to explain that way myself. The whole goth culture is so complex when you really look at it... and then you get into the really weird stuff like Japanese Lolita dress and kei and all that.
Zamiel : Thanks for the compliment. And yeah, I found it easier to explain that way myself. The whole goth culture is so complex when you really look at it... and then you get into the really weird stuff like Japanese Lolita dress and kei and all that.
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02-09-11 07:42 PM
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Zamiel : Lol, I was being a little sarcastic there.

Btw, people like YMK weren't being ignorant. It's just common belief. I personally have nothing against any styles or anything, hell, as long as you belive it's true to you go for it.

Elara : Lol, that was the most ignorant statement about the emo subculture. You shouldn't call other people ignorant and make ignorant statements of your own.
Zamiel : Lol, I was being a little sarcastic there.

Btw, people like YMK weren't being ignorant. It's just common belief. I personally have nothing against any styles or anything, hell, as long as you belive it's true to you go for it.

Elara : Lol, that was the most ignorant statement about the emo subculture. You shouldn't call other people ignorant and make ignorant statements of your own.
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02-09-11 09:42 PM
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The difference is that I actually know what the emo subculture is. I made an observation, but if you want a technical description, fine. They wear tight pants, dark clothes, studden jewelry, heavy eyeliner and favor long hair, often covering parts of their faces, or short and choppy with bright highlights similar to the punk scene but with long bangs... bangs covering their eyes is the big thing. They often cut themselves or talk about killing themselves, and they prefer music that talks about how misunderstood and alone they are in the world, how no one understands them. Some have more punkish styles, wearing ripped jeans, and they sometimes like stripes. Some wear bold colors along with the dark. Wrist bands are really popular.

According to Wikipedia, older emo fashion has sweater vests, tight button-up tops... kinda a stereotypical "nerd look" if you want to make it easier to picture.

I have spent a lot, and I mean A LOT of time around emo teens, seeing as the movement exploded at my high school during my senior year and the majority of my friends were younger than I was and already in the scene. And you know what, they were all whiny with no exception.

On a side note, I assumed you were being sarcastic about the vampires and bats... though a lot of goths I personally know really like bats for some reason. It is rather humorous to be honest.
The difference is that I actually know what the emo subculture is. I made an observation, but if you want a technical description, fine. They wear tight pants, dark clothes, studden jewelry, heavy eyeliner and favor long hair, often covering parts of their faces, or short and choppy with bright highlights similar to the punk scene but with long bangs... bangs covering their eyes is the big thing. They often cut themselves or talk about killing themselves, and they prefer music that talks about how misunderstood and alone they are in the world, how no one understands them. Some have more punkish styles, wearing ripped jeans, and they sometimes like stripes. Some wear bold colors along with the dark. Wrist bands are really popular.

According to Wikipedia, older emo fashion has sweater vests, tight button-up tops... kinda a stereotypical "nerd look" if you want to make it easier to picture.

I have spent a lot, and I mean A LOT of time around emo teens, seeing as the movement exploded at my high school during my senior year and the majority of my friends were younger than I was and already in the scene. And you know what, they were all whiny with no exception.

On a side note, I assumed you were being sarcastic about the vampires and bats... though a lot of goths I personally know really like bats for some reason. It is rather humorous to be honest.
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(edited by Elara on 02-09-11 09:45 PM)    

02-10-11 05:21 PM
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the_casualty : That's the definition of ignorant, believing something that isn't true. So it was ignorant and yes, I figured you weren't serious, I was just making a point and I like summoning you. Emo means emotional so emo's are supposed to be whiny so it wasn't an ignorant statement at all. Now if she said they all cut themselves, THAT would have been ignorant.

I understand why a lot of goths like bats. They're both dark and misunderstood.
the_casualty : That's the definition of ignorant, believing something that isn't true. So it was ignorant and yes, I figured you weren't serious, I was just making a point and I like summoning you. Emo means emotional so emo's are supposed to be whiny so it wasn't an ignorant statement at all. Now if she said they all cut themselves, THAT would have been ignorant.

I understand why a lot of goths like bats. They're both dark and misunderstood.
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