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ALS Ice Bucket Challenge

 

08-10-14 09:11 AM
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So....yesterday I got nominated to do the Ice Bucket Challenge. For those of you who don't know what this is, the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge is a social media craze lately, started by the wife of Pete Frates who wanted to raise awareness of ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease. This is not just a Boston area thing (or an American thing), as there are videos of other celebrities from outside the states that do this as well. The process is the following (You can find video examples simply by searching):

1) Dump a bucket of ice water over your head and donate to an ALS organization of your choice
2) Nominate 3 people that you know to do the challenge and give them 24 hours to do it.
3) If they do the challenge, they are asked to donate 10-20 dollars to ALS organizations. If they don't want to do the challenge, they are asked to donate 50-100 dollars to ALS organizations.
4) Post the video on your social media.

Here's what I don't like about this. The people who do it right are raising awareness and are increasing the donation amounts to research. This is true. But, there are people who are NOT doing it right by doing this video and not even mention anything about where people can find out more about ALS or talk about ALS. Some people who end up doing the challenge may not realize the donation part, or actually do the donation part, but just do this fad that spreads around facebook, and still have no clue what ALS is or the characteristics of the diseases are, or that it has no cure, or that it has a 2-5 year life expectancy. They do the challenge and forget what the challenge is about.

Furthermore, this is a prime example of peer pressure and blackmailing people to give money when it should come from the heart. The specific nomination process is forcing specific people to donate a certain amount and either do it or not do it, but never provide the option of not participating and making the person who end up not doing any of it look like an uncharitable person or a "scrooge" when they may have their own reasons to not do so or not donate. Charity should come from the heart, not from a fad, and you wonder what happens if something is done for something that is not a charity. People would probably still do it.

Right now, by "rule", I have 7 hours to do the challenge and donate, or donate $100 to not do the challenge. I haven't decided how to respond to this yet. For one thing, I do believe that it is important to spread the understanding of ALS and to support the research of finding a cure for it, but I don't want to do this, particularly the nomination process, in peer pressuring or blackmailing people to do the challenge and donate or not do the challenge and donate. I have some idea on how to respond, but maybe some of you can share some ideas.


P.S.: Please take the time to go and look up what ALS is. A example of this disease's effect's would be Stephen Hawking. He is, however, an exception in terms of life expectancy, as it is normally expect that the person would live for only 2 to 5 years after being diagnosed. Read more about it on this link: http://www.alsa.org/about-als/what-is-als.html
So....yesterday I got nominated to do the Ice Bucket Challenge. For those of you who don't know what this is, the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge is a social media craze lately, started by the wife of Pete Frates who wanted to raise awareness of ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease. This is not just a Boston area thing (or an American thing), as there are videos of other celebrities from outside the states that do this as well. The process is the following (You can find video examples simply by searching):

1) Dump a bucket of ice water over your head and donate to an ALS organization of your choice
2) Nominate 3 people that you know to do the challenge and give them 24 hours to do it.
3) If they do the challenge, they are asked to donate 10-20 dollars to ALS organizations. If they don't want to do the challenge, they are asked to donate 50-100 dollars to ALS organizations.
4) Post the video on your social media.

Here's what I don't like about this. The people who do it right are raising awareness and are increasing the donation amounts to research. This is true. But, there are people who are NOT doing it right by doing this video and not even mention anything about where people can find out more about ALS or talk about ALS. Some people who end up doing the challenge may not realize the donation part, or actually do the donation part, but just do this fad that spreads around facebook, and still have no clue what ALS is or the characteristics of the diseases are, or that it has no cure, or that it has a 2-5 year life expectancy. They do the challenge and forget what the challenge is about.

Furthermore, this is a prime example of peer pressure and blackmailing people to give money when it should come from the heart. The specific nomination process is forcing specific people to donate a certain amount and either do it or not do it, but never provide the option of not participating and making the person who end up not doing any of it look like an uncharitable person or a "scrooge" when they may have their own reasons to not do so or not donate. Charity should come from the heart, not from a fad, and you wonder what happens if something is done for something that is not a charity. People would probably still do it.

Right now, by "rule", I have 7 hours to do the challenge and donate, or donate $100 to not do the challenge. I haven't decided how to respond to this yet. For one thing, I do believe that it is important to spread the understanding of ALS and to support the research of finding a cure for it, but I don't want to do this, particularly the nomination process, in peer pressuring or blackmailing people to do the challenge and donate or not do the challenge and donate. I have some idea on how to respond, but maybe some of you can share some ideas.


P.S.: Please take the time to go and look up what ALS is. A example of this disease's effect's would be Stephen Hawking. He is, however, an exception in terms of life expectancy, as it is normally expect that the person would live for only 2 to 5 years after being diagnosed. Read more about it on this link: http://www.alsa.org/about-als/what-is-als.html
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08-10-14 12:41 PM
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This is an interesting situation your friends got you into, if I were you I would ask if it is possible to change the rules for the Ice Bucket Challenge. I believe that no matter what the challenge is it can always be change to be even better and fair for everyone. Now if they don't want to change the rules then tell them that the ice bucket challenge has no connection to the ALS disease, it was simply a challenge that people made to spread awareness and some people now have use it to try to become a youtube star. The final option was to simply not do the challenge and save your money because its not consider helping if you are being force into something.
This is an interesting situation your friends got you into, if I were you I would ask if it is possible to change the rules for the Ice Bucket Challenge. I believe that no matter what the challenge is it can always be change to be even better and fair for everyone. Now if they don't want to change the rules then tell them that the ice bucket challenge has no connection to the ALS disease, it was simply a challenge that people made to spread awareness and some people now have use it to try to become a youtube star. The final option was to simply not do the challenge and save your money because its not consider helping if you are being force into something.
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08-12-14 01:18 PM
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I honestly feel like the whole challenge itself is a bit of a slap in the face to people with ALS. 

I mean think about it. These are people who are literally DUMPING water on their bodies JUST to avoid donating their money to a cause. In fact, unlike what play4fun said, when I see people who're doing it on my FB dash there is literally ZERO mention of still having to pay a small amount of money even if you do the challenge. 

I feel a little bit differently about the donating however.

If I get nominated for the challenge (which will probably happen at some point) I don't plan on doing it. I'd happily donate my money instead of making a complete ass out of myself just to avoid showing a hint of selflessness. While I agree that charity should come from the heart, sometimes massive donation fads aren't necessarily a bad thing. USA Today reported that people doing the challenge correctly have raised almost 2.3 million dollars since July 29th. That's amazing! And while not everyone is donating, from the bottom of their hearts, it's not like that money won't go to good use. 

So yeah, just my thoughts.
I honestly feel like the whole challenge itself is a bit of a slap in the face to people with ALS. 

I mean think about it. These are people who are literally DUMPING water on their bodies JUST to avoid donating their money to a cause. In fact, unlike what play4fun said, when I see people who're doing it on my FB dash there is literally ZERO mention of still having to pay a small amount of money even if you do the challenge. 

I feel a little bit differently about the donating however.

If I get nominated for the challenge (which will probably happen at some point) I don't plan on doing it. I'd happily donate my money instead of making a complete ass out of myself just to avoid showing a hint of selflessness. While I agree that charity should come from the heart, sometimes massive donation fads aren't necessarily a bad thing. USA Today reported that people doing the challenge correctly have raised almost 2.3 million dollars since July 29th. That's amazing! And while not everyone is donating, from the bottom of their hearts, it's not like that money won't go to good use. 

So yeah, just my thoughts.
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08-12-14 04:04 PM
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"Furthermore, this is a prime example of peer pressure and blackmailing people to give money when it should come from the heart."

And this is why I'm not taking part.

I've been nominated 5 times now by different people.

I am not doing it, nor am I donating money.

On top of being poor (I have maybe 20 bucks to my name), there are causes I'm more passionate about, and charities I'm more interested in helping.

I don't care if it makes me look like an a**h***. It's extortion, and I won't support any cause that pressures people to give money.
"Furthermore, this is a prime example of peer pressure and blackmailing people to give money when it should come from the heart."

And this is why I'm not taking part.

I've been nominated 5 times now by different people.

I am not doing it, nor am I donating money.

On top of being poor (I have maybe 20 bucks to my name), there are causes I'm more passionate about, and charities I'm more interested in helping.

I don't care if it makes me look like an a**h***. It's extortion, and I won't support any cause that pressures people to give money.
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08-13-14 08:51 PM
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play4fun :

If you have respect, I imagine that they would understand why you are not interested in going through with this, though I would offer a donation anyways just because probably.

The other option is to say, "Well, just because you feel like you have to force people to donate, I could care less about it." and walk off. Hoping to teach them a lesson.

If you're known for being wise, it will sting them even more.

I personally would probably take a stand against it.

*check page*

Interesting, that is not a good disease to get. I'm surprised that there isn't apparently more that one can do to slow or get rid of it.

My mom beat cancer naturally though, perhaps there is a natural way to cure it?

http://curezone.com/foods/foods_that_kill.asp
play4fun :

If you have respect, I imagine that they would understand why you are not interested in going through with this, though I would offer a donation anyways just because probably.

The other option is to say, "Well, just because you feel like you have to force people to donate, I could care less about it." and walk off. Hoping to teach them a lesson.

If you're known for being wise, it will sting them even more.

I personally would probably take a stand against it.

*check page*

Interesting, that is not a good disease to get. I'm surprised that there isn't apparently more that one can do to slow or get rid of it.

My mom beat cancer naturally though, perhaps there is a natural way to cure it?

http://curezone.com/foods/foods_that_kill.asp
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08-22-14 04:55 PM
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if you dont want to do it, then DONT DO IT.
easy as that, you're just over thinking about it all and  thinking about how it will make you look
if you dont want to do it, then DONT DO IT.
easy as that, you're just over thinking about it all and  thinking about how it will make you look
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08-23-14 03:26 PM
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While I do agree that this is a form of peer pressure, and people should make a donation that comes from the heart rather than just for an Internet craze. No arguments there at all. But at the same time, money donated to a good cause from people donating out of compassion and from people donating due to a fad leads to exactly the same thing. The result as far as the charity goes does not change based on what is in the heart of the donors. That is for the individuals to worry about (or not worry about). So I don't want to reject the idea of this whole challenge thing based on the fact that many donate without educating or not out of their hearts.

As for the people who are not doing it right (just doing it and not donating anything), I am sure there are a lot of people doing that. But I think the ones not donating are the minority. Around this time last year, ALS charity got about $2 million in donations. This challenge started, and the charity has hit over $40 million in donations. Whether it is for a fad instead of actually caring, that is still $38 million more going to finding a cure than they had last year, and the ice bucket challenge is to thank for it.

For your personal dilemma, I think that if you would rather not do it, don't. You shouldn't feel pressured into it. From what I am getting, your personal feeling is that if you are going to donate, you should do it without promoting it on social media and pressuring others to do it. There is nothing wrong with it. I would say that if you want to make a donation, just do it without dumping ice water on your head and without challenging others to do it. Do it, and don't advertise that you donated. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to go about what you decide to do. Whatever you do is your personal decision and nobody else's business.
While I do agree that this is a form of peer pressure, and people should make a donation that comes from the heart rather than just for an Internet craze. No arguments there at all. But at the same time, money donated to a good cause from people donating out of compassion and from people donating due to a fad leads to exactly the same thing. The result as far as the charity goes does not change based on what is in the heart of the donors. That is for the individuals to worry about (or not worry about). So I don't want to reject the idea of this whole challenge thing based on the fact that many donate without educating or not out of their hearts.

As for the people who are not doing it right (just doing it and not donating anything), I am sure there are a lot of people doing that. But I think the ones not donating are the minority. Around this time last year, ALS charity got about $2 million in donations. This challenge started, and the charity has hit over $40 million in donations. Whether it is for a fad instead of actually caring, that is still $38 million more going to finding a cure than they had last year, and the ice bucket challenge is to thank for it.

For your personal dilemma, I think that if you would rather not do it, don't. You shouldn't feel pressured into it. From what I am getting, your personal feeling is that if you are going to donate, you should do it without promoting it on social media and pressuring others to do it. There is nothing wrong with it. I would say that if you want to make a donation, just do it without dumping ice water on your head and without challenging others to do it. Do it, and don't advertise that you donated. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to go about what you decide to do. Whatever you do is your personal decision and nobody else's business.
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08-23-14 07:09 PM
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Easy, don't do it. The insulting should stop after 3 months...

Just kidding. Seriously, man, would the ALS patients really want people to be blackmailed for their sakes? (Maybe, some people are still selfish even at death's door...) (Sorry I said that, but it's true...) Just spread the awareness (?) and info about ALS and hopefully, the extra kind-hearted people in the world will donate.

If you are still forced to do this, just dump iced water on your head and hope you get fever after donating. Leave work for 2 weeks and make them feel guilty...
Easy, don't do it. The insulting should stop after 3 months...

Just kidding. Seriously, man, would the ALS patients really want people to be blackmailed for their sakes? (Maybe, some people are still selfish even at death's door...) (Sorry I said that, but it's true...) Just spread the awareness (?) and info about ALS and hopefully, the extra kind-hearted people in the world will donate.

If you are still forced to do this, just dump iced water on your head and hope you get fever after donating. Leave work for 2 weeks and make them feel guilty...
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08-25-14 07:16 AM
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Why is something that is doing a lot of good, and causing very little harm such a bad thing?

I like to think of comparing the world where there was no ice bucket challenge (Word A), to the one now (World B).

In world B, we have countless dollars donated to ALS that isn't donated in world A, and likely a few people who, not knowing what ALS really was, decided to read up about it, and maybe now will become lifetime donators.

Would a world were instead of the ice bucket there was a 'craze' about informing people about ALS and kindly asking for donations be better? Yes, but unfortunately that isn't what developed.

What I'm saying is, the ice bucket challenge isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing. But there will always be the people who focus on the bad in anything good. Sure it's better to donate from the heart, I can't agree more; but here's a little fun fact from the Time's: "The ALS Association, which had raised $64 million in all of 2013, raised more than $10 million on Thursday, August 21, 2014 alone." I'd say our society can take a little peer pressure of pouring water on our head if it has this kind of result.

If you don't want to do it, then don't. Maybe instead make a video saying instead of doing the ice bucket, you will raise awareness for it. That's a very worthy cause.

I haven't been nominated, but if i was, I would donate and dump water on my head, it's worked so far.

Why is something that is doing a lot of good, and causing very little harm such a bad thing?

I like to think of comparing the world where there was no ice bucket challenge (Word A), to the one now (World B).

In world B, we have countless dollars donated to ALS that isn't donated in world A, and likely a few people who, not knowing what ALS really was, decided to read up about it, and maybe now will become lifetime donators.

Would a world were instead of the ice bucket there was a 'craze' about informing people about ALS and kindly asking for donations be better? Yes, but unfortunately that isn't what developed.

What I'm saying is, the ice bucket challenge isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing. But there will always be the people who focus on the bad in anything good. Sure it's better to donate from the heart, I can't agree more; but here's a little fun fact from the Time's: "The ALS Association, which had raised $64 million in all of 2013, raised more than $10 million on Thursday, August 21, 2014 alone." I'd say our society can take a little peer pressure of pouring water on our head if it has this kind of result.

If you don't want to do it, then don't. Maybe instead make a video saying instead of doing the ice bucket, you will raise awareness for it. That's a very worthy cause.

I haven't been nominated, but if i was, I would donate and dump water on my head, it's worked so far.

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08-25-14 12:46 PM
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Just to throw another piece of info into the mix... Some of the ALS research organizations test on human fetus'. There are one or two who don't, and I support those, but I shudder to think people would support testing on human fetus'. You wouldn't murder your grandpa and use his remains for testing when there were other options, would you? Your wife? Your sister or brother? There are alternatives to fetus testing, so we should explore them.

That's all to say - be careful when donating. Don't donate to organizations that use fetus' for testing. There are organizations that don't use fetus', so donate there. I fully support beating ALS, if done right.
Just to throw another piece of info into the mix... Some of the ALS research organizations test on human fetus'. There are one or two who don't, and I support those, but I shudder to think people would support testing on human fetus'. You wouldn't murder your grandpa and use his remains for testing when there were other options, would you? Your wife? Your sister or brother? There are alternatives to fetus testing, so we should explore them.

That's all to say - be careful when donating. Don't donate to organizations that use fetus' for testing. There are organizations that don't use fetus', so donate there. I fully support beating ALS, if done right.
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08-27-14 04:40 PM
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I know how you feel about it. I like everything you said. I might end up doing the challenge today or tomorrow. One of my neighbors apparently challenged my entire family unit to do the challenge. That's odd, because that's 5 people, not 3. None of us want to do it, and my mom doesn't know what to do...
I know how you feel about it. I like everything you said. I might end up doing the challenge today or tomorrow. One of my neighbors apparently challenged my entire family unit to do the challenge. That's odd, because that's 5 people, not 3. None of us want to do it, and my mom doesn't know what to do...
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My mom hates this... but it's sorta a different approach on her part. She got mad because she says there are people around the world without water and we're wasting water like this. ._.
Ok, sure that sounds pretty noble at first, keyword at FIRST, but my mom has been shoving this down my throat since I was BORN. I don't finish my vegetables, I'm a terrible person cause that food could have fed some kid at mexico. I don't like a christmas gift, she says the tie could have been loved by some poor kid in haiti. A TIE.
I'm sorry if it makes me sound bad, but I don't think a waste of water is our problem here when the money goes to the charity, a problem, like you've said, is lack of awareness and it becoming blackmail and for fun.
Also when my mom applauded a man for using water from his toilet instead of a faucet I told her the ice was still wasted, so yeah...
My mom hates this... but it's sorta a different approach on her part. She got mad because she says there are people around the world without water and we're wasting water like this. ._.
Ok, sure that sounds pretty noble at first, keyword at FIRST, but my mom has been shoving this down my throat since I was BORN. I don't finish my vegetables, I'm a terrible person cause that food could have fed some kid at mexico. I don't like a christmas gift, she says the tie could have been loved by some poor kid in haiti. A TIE.
I'm sorry if it makes me sound bad, but I don't think a waste of water is our problem here when the money goes to the charity, a problem, like you've said, is lack of awareness and it becoming blackmail and for fun.
Also when my mom applauded a man for using water from his toilet instead of a faucet I told her the ice was still wasted, so yeah...
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09-03-14 05:55 AM
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i dont understand why it is so popular?

i will never donate money to a charity unless i am actually putting money directly into the hands of a poor or sick person dont get me wrong i would much rather volunteer my time instead like work at a soup kitchen that way i know i actually helped some one rather then just dropping money in a bucket and god knows whos hands it actually ends up in
i dont understand why it is so popular?

i will never donate money to a charity unless i am actually putting money directly into the hands of a poor or sick person dont get me wrong i would much rather volunteer my time instead like work at a soup kitchen that way i know i actually helped some one rather then just dropping money in a bucket and god knows whos hands it actually ends up in
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09-03-14 08:18 AM
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I also don't like the idea of the challenge, I do like the cause of it, but the circumstances are wrong. I also have a problem with wasting natural resources like that. I wish they would think about the water they waste when doing that. Water in Europe costs more than in the States, not to mention that some have little to no water. I would do the challenge, but not donate, and I would use rain water. I wouldn't donate, because it is a forced donation and therefore has no real value.
I also don't like the idea of the challenge, I do like the cause of it, but the circumstances are wrong. I also have a problem with wasting natural resources like that. I wish they would think about the water they waste when doing that. Water in Europe costs more than in the States, not to mention that some have little to no water. I would do the challenge, but not donate, and I would use rain water. I wouldn't donate, because it is a forced donation and therefore has no real value.
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09-21-14 05:38 AM
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Pamela Anderson (hate her or love her) says that the money will help fund animal testing which is true and true. I am not an animal activist or vegetarian and probably will never be one but I do understand the plight of animals and as such, I do not support animal testing. That isn't the primary reason for me to be against the stupid Ice Bucket Challenge though. I understand they chose something like this because it is daring and it will hit youths the hardest because of...YOLO! guys lets do this Ice Bucket Challenge! Everyone is doing it! Sally and her friends are all going to wear white t shirts so cmon guys! Especially when mindless celebrities do it too. 

This proves that most of the world are sheeps and there are a few sheepdogs that herds their circle of sheeps. These sheepdogs are in turn slaves to the shepards who are the ones who started it all. I for one choose not to just do something because it seems cool. I smoke because I like it, not because everyone else has an iPhone so I need one too. So I wholeheartedly agree to the OP because people are just doing things because doing stupid crap gives you a spotlight. OMG! he is so brave to do something like that! Would Jesus do this for charity? Would the original Buddha? Would Muhammad? That's right. Probably not because these men of history are wisemen. They are more than shepards and they think for themselves and help others not the other way around. The wisemen of today are different. Most of them have an agenda. An agenda that their followers are not apart of yet they choose to be ignorant to this fact which makes them sheeps.

I am not a great person but I can see that this craze and probably all future charitable crazes like this one will just be like pop music. Pop stands for popular for those who never cared to wonder. Why do girls listen to pop music that directly degrade women? Do anyone think of the lyrics? The general mass just 'do' and think later. Our society pushes this to a great extent and thus people will take up stupid things that have no idea about like the ice bucket challenge. They go oh a challenge. Challenge Accepted! They don't go wait...why am I being challenged? Do I need to be challenged? What are the consequences? All that is ignored because to be cool you better do it. As darthyoda said, people do not worry about the lack of clean water in Africa, we take it for granted and dump it on the streets. At least do this in a reservoir so it gets recycled, idiots. People are manipulated in thinking that they are apart of something great. Like communism lol. This is great on paper but it is quite dumb. If enough celebs decide to cut themselves somewhere for a charitable cause and to raise awareness of certain types of injuries, millions will flock to do the same to self mutilate and then your 9 year old cousin suddenly bleeds out thinking he was being cool. Just like the dude ends up in the hospital after getting a firefighter planeload of water dumped on him. Good for him and all the dumbasses who supported that. Here is a link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2734934/Ice-Bucket-Challenge-joker-ends-hospital-friend-uses-firefighter-plane-dump-400-gallons-water-Spain.html if you haven't read about it yet. This crap just deserves faceplams after facepalms. Think for yourself before you take up bs, peoples. 

Regards,
TitaniumOxide
Pamela Anderson (hate her or love her) says that the money will help fund animal testing which is true and true. I am not an animal activist or vegetarian and probably will never be one but I do understand the plight of animals and as such, I do not support animal testing. That isn't the primary reason for me to be against the stupid Ice Bucket Challenge though. I understand they chose something like this because it is daring and it will hit youths the hardest because of...YOLO! guys lets do this Ice Bucket Challenge! Everyone is doing it! Sally and her friends are all going to wear white t shirts so cmon guys! Especially when mindless celebrities do it too. 

This proves that most of the world are sheeps and there are a few sheepdogs that herds their circle of sheeps. These sheepdogs are in turn slaves to the shepards who are the ones who started it all. I for one choose not to just do something because it seems cool. I smoke because I like it, not because everyone else has an iPhone so I need one too. So I wholeheartedly agree to the OP because people are just doing things because doing stupid crap gives you a spotlight. OMG! he is so brave to do something like that! Would Jesus do this for charity? Would the original Buddha? Would Muhammad? That's right. Probably not because these men of history are wisemen. They are more than shepards and they think for themselves and help others not the other way around. The wisemen of today are different. Most of them have an agenda. An agenda that their followers are not apart of yet they choose to be ignorant to this fact which makes them sheeps.

I am not a great person but I can see that this craze and probably all future charitable crazes like this one will just be like pop music. Pop stands for popular for those who never cared to wonder. Why do girls listen to pop music that directly degrade women? Do anyone think of the lyrics? The general mass just 'do' and think later. Our society pushes this to a great extent and thus people will take up stupid things that have no idea about like the ice bucket challenge. They go oh a challenge. Challenge Accepted! They don't go wait...why am I being challenged? Do I need to be challenged? What are the consequences? All that is ignored because to be cool you better do it. As darthyoda said, people do not worry about the lack of clean water in Africa, we take it for granted and dump it on the streets. At least do this in a reservoir so it gets recycled, idiots. People are manipulated in thinking that they are apart of something great. Like communism lol. This is great on paper but it is quite dumb. If enough celebs decide to cut themselves somewhere for a charitable cause and to raise awareness of certain types of injuries, millions will flock to do the same to self mutilate and then your 9 year old cousin suddenly bleeds out thinking he was being cool. Just like the dude ends up in the hospital after getting a firefighter planeload of water dumped on him. Good for him and all the dumbasses who supported that. Here is a link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2734934/Ice-Bucket-Challenge-joker-ends-hospital-friend-uses-firefighter-plane-dump-400-gallons-water-Spain.html if you haven't read about it yet. This crap just deserves faceplams after facepalms. Think for yourself before you take up bs, peoples. 

Regards,
TitaniumOxide
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(edited by TitaniumOxide on 09-21-14 05:41 AM)    

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