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What's going on in Ukraine

 

01-27-14 08:48 PM
ruesen is Offline
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I only found out about this tonight due to a link going around on facebook. It's essentially Civil War going on in Ukraine.

http://www.slideshare.net/NazarBartosik/what-is-really-happening-in-ukraine

The above link is a slideshow. Most the images in the slideshow are tame to mildly violent (beat up persons). The links IN the images, however, have disturbing video and heart-wrenching pleas for help from the citizens.

This is my only source of info (that seems legitimate, based on the videos I clicked on), so my opinion is biased, heavily in favor of the people. Anyone have any opinions? Should USA and other countries help them or leave them to work on their problems on their own?
I only found out about this tonight due to a link going around on facebook. It's essentially Civil War going on in Ukraine.

http://www.slideshare.net/NazarBartosik/what-is-really-happening-in-ukraine

The above link is a slideshow. Most the images in the slideshow are tame to mildly violent (beat up persons). The links IN the images, however, have disturbing video and heart-wrenching pleas for help from the citizens.

This is my only source of info (that seems legitimate, based on the videos I clicked on), so my opinion is biased, heavily in favor of the people. Anyone have any opinions? Should USA and other countries help them or leave them to work on their problems on their own?
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01-27-14 09:41 PM
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This is an issue far more complex than "people vs government". A large bloc of people, mostly in western Ukraine, are protesting the government's decision to scrap a trade deal with the EU in favour of a similar one with Russia. They worry about associating to closely with Russia due, in large part to unpleasant memories of being ruled by the USSR, and would prefer closer ties to the west. The protesters are most likely not supporters of president Yanukovych anyway, who is seen as a more old-fashioned pro-Russia politician. These protests are probably not over about the trade deal but many years of pro-west vs pro-Russia sentiments finally coming to a head.

Now Yanukovych is saying that the reason he cancelled the EU trade deal has nothing to do with politics but is simply because Russia was offering a better deal, especially with regards to the importation natural gas, which is an extremely important commodity in Ukraine. Of course we have no idea what exactly the details were in the respective deals, but the EU loans probably came with austerity measures (required government spending cuts) attached, whereas the Russian deal only required Ukraine to continue buying natural gas from Russia, which it wants to do anyway, as it really has no other options for the time being. In fact, Russia has already given Ukraine a large loan and discounts on gas. Protesters may see this as Putin gradually forcing Ukrainian reliance on Russia, but it's a very nice deal nonetheless. If the EU were actually offering a better deal, they would have said so. Yanukovych probably made the right decision.

There have been pro-government rallies as well, but as these protests tend to be in pro-west areas, they are much smaller. As I mentioned, eastern Ukraine tends to be more pro-Russia and pro-Yanukovych, and as the east is more powerful industrially, it's unlikely that the west will win this time, especially with the government suppression. This stuff will die out. Just ten years ago, Yanukovych was ousted from power by popular revolution after rigging an election. 6 years later, he's elected president again. People are fickle.
This is an issue far more complex than "people vs government". A large bloc of people, mostly in western Ukraine, are protesting the government's decision to scrap a trade deal with the EU in favour of a similar one with Russia. They worry about associating to closely with Russia due, in large part to unpleasant memories of being ruled by the USSR, and would prefer closer ties to the west. The protesters are most likely not supporters of president Yanukovych anyway, who is seen as a more old-fashioned pro-Russia politician. These protests are probably not over about the trade deal but many years of pro-west vs pro-Russia sentiments finally coming to a head.

Now Yanukovych is saying that the reason he cancelled the EU trade deal has nothing to do with politics but is simply because Russia was offering a better deal, especially with regards to the importation natural gas, which is an extremely important commodity in Ukraine. Of course we have no idea what exactly the details were in the respective deals, but the EU loans probably came with austerity measures (required government spending cuts) attached, whereas the Russian deal only required Ukraine to continue buying natural gas from Russia, which it wants to do anyway, as it really has no other options for the time being. In fact, Russia has already given Ukraine a large loan and discounts on gas. Protesters may see this as Putin gradually forcing Ukrainian reliance on Russia, but it's a very nice deal nonetheless. If the EU were actually offering a better deal, they would have said so. Yanukovych probably made the right decision.

There have been pro-government rallies as well, but as these protests tend to be in pro-west areas, they are much smaller. As I mentioned, eastern Ukraine tends to be more pro-Russia and pro-Yanukovych, and as the east is more powerful industrially, it's unlikely that the west will win this time, especially with the government suppression. This stuff will die out. Just ten years ago, Yanukovych was ousted from power by popular revolution after rigging an election. 6 years later, he's elected president again. People are fickle.
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01-27-14 09:48 PM
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Ukraine is on the brink of civil war. The people are rising up after taking abuse from their government. The conflict has been brewing for some time. The government in Ukraine wants to return to a more communist like government. The people want their rights and their liberty back. As much as it is Sad. I do not think the United States needs to get involved here. The USA has its own problems. Increasing debt, slow job growth, our own people are hurting. I think we should stop being the world police. I hate what the Ukraine government is doing but I think if the USA gets involved it will spark more turmoil. But maybe I'm just a Libertarian. However I will pray for Ukraine  
Ukraine is on the brink of civil war. The people are rising up after taking abuse from their government. The conflict has been brewing for some time. The government in Ukraine wants to return to a more communist like government. The people want their rights and their liberty back. As much as it is Sad. I do not think the United States needs to get involved here. The USA has its own problems. Increasing debt, slow job growth, our own people are hurting. I think we should stop being the world police. I hate what the Ukraine government is doing but I think if the USA gets involved it will spark more turmoil. But maybe I'm just a Libertarian. However I will pray for Ukraine  
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01-30-14 05:10 PM
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You only just found out about this?Really?
My god, news in North America must suck.

Traduweise :
A very eloquent summary but I would throw in a few minor additions.
Firstly, the Ukrainian leader has in fact, never actually signed a deal with Russia to join their currency union. In fact he categorically stated he wasn't going to, and said Ukraine wasn't ready to join the European trade zone.
Behind the scenes though, Russia actually exerted massive pressure on Ukraine not to sign the eu agreement, because it has specific requirements and standards. This means that Ukraine can only join one of the unions, because they have conflicting requirements.
The deal Ukraine did sign with Russia gave them around (off the top of my head) 15 billion in loans, and a 30% reduction in oil prices (to which Ukraine is dependent on Russia).

The EU wasn't really offering much money to Ukraine, the main deal was basically that it would make it far easier and more beneficial to trade with the EU, Something that most nations surrounding the eu are desperate to get into.
It has massively benefited Ukraine's neighbours such as Poland, who are flying past Ukraine in terms of standard of living. This is further infuriating the opposition movement, because to agree on signing this treaty has taken many many years, and in the space of a week the president scrapped it.
The loans and gas cut were viewed by many as a reward by Russia for refusing to sign the european deal.
This is reinforced by the current events. The Ukrainian prime minister and cabinet have resigned, and with the possibility of the government now swinging back to Europe, Russia have announced they are suspending the loans pending the stabilisation of the government.

Additionally the protests have been spreading east, as you correctly identified, there are multiple reasons behind the unrest.
As well as anger at the deal being dropped, is anger at the state of the economy (without the Russian loans they cant pay their bills), the corruption (the ex president was jailed on what are widely regarded as fraudulent charges after she was defeated in the elections), nationalist tensions (theirs still a lot of anger about the millions who died in Ukraine before independence, and the continued interference in Ukraine),and at the governments heavy handed response to the protestors before they became violent.

There are to main considerations on the question of whether it was the right decision, which is, what they need the west for, and what they need the east for. Frankly, the east is heavily dependent on Russia, it produces industrial goods and most of this flows into Russia. They apparently build about 97% of Russia helicopter engines. However the west is much more closely linked to Europe, and in the long term, it offers them far more trade opportunities, as well as increasing the chance of investment. Germany has invested heavily in Poland since it joined the EU and its economy has markedly improved.
The problem is that whilst Europe will continue to trade with Ukraine to an extent regardless of what path they choose, Russia has been threatening to essentially ban all their imports or put massive taxes on them if they join the European trade block.
Under that treat the Ukrainian president bowed to Russian pressure, but unfortunately for him, hes in catch 22. Hes appeased the Russians but hes majorly pissed of the Ukrainians.

I seriously doubt Yanukovych will win. The protestors have gained more and more ground.
As well as seizing multiple government buildings and forces most of its resignation (except the president), they were also offered the role of prime minister and deputy prime minister (the 2 opposition leaders). On top of that every escalation the government has made has inflamed the situation, from trying to clear peaceful protestors, shooting them, and passing draconian anti protest laws (which one week later, has now been revoked due to it increasing the protests).
As I stated before the protests are also moving east into his major support base.
The protestors actually made a local governor publicly resign in the streets.

The only escalation left is to declare a state of emergency, which is political suicide. The protestors will grow in numbers and frankly most of the west will probably condemn them for it, Europe is already warning them not to bring in the military.

And now the president has temporarily disappeared due to 'ill health'. I don't know which way the wind is blowing but I know the protestors aren't going to give in.

They are exceptionally organised and prepared to fight it as a war if it comes to it. I doubt it will but who knows.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25966962

An example of the mindsets of various elements of the opposition:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25949382

This is a pretty good analysis of various goings on in Ukraine but a long read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25927006

And then there's one on the protests leaders
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25910834

I also read some articles on the Russian state media about the protests but it was a little too biased to use as supporting evidence, they made some... colourfull statements.

tornadocam :
While I am sure certain members of Ukraine support communism, I dont think thats got a very strong hold in the country. Certainly they want more liberal, perhaps socialist policies, such as job creation, but this is more about the authoritarian nature of the government.
Also im pretty sure America isnt going to get involved in the sense you infer.
Although having read Russian articles the one thing I wonder is whether western leaders visting the protest camps is a step too far. They are continually doing that.



Iv been following it pretty closely and I do think its passed the halfway mark, but iv been wrong before.
You only just found out about this?Really?
My god, news in North America must suck.

Traduweise :
A very eloquent summary but I would throw in a few minor additions.
Firstly, the Ukrainian leader has in fact, never actually signed a deal with Russia to join their currency union. In fact he categorically stated he wasn't going to, and said Ukraine wasn't ready to join the European trade zone.
Behind the scenes though, Russia actually exerted massive pressure on Ukraine not to sign the eu agreement, because it has specific requirements and standards. This means that Ukraine can only join one of the unions, because they have conflicting requirements.
The deal Ukraine did sign with Russia gave them around (off the top of my head) 15 billion in loans, and a 30% reduction in oil prices (to which Ukraine is dependent on Russia).

The EU wasn't really offering much money to Ukraine, the main deal was basically that it would make it far easier and more beneficial to trade with the EU, Something that most nations surrounding the eu are desperate to get into.
It has massively benefited Ukraine's neighbours such as Poland, who are flying past Ukraine in terms of standard of living. This is further infuriating the opposition movement, because to agree on signing this treaty has taken many many years, and in the space of a week the president scrapped it.
The loans and gas cut were viewed by many as a reward by Russia for refusing to sign the european deal.
This is reinforced by the current events. The Ukrainian prime minister and cabinet have resigned, and with the possibility of the government now swinging back to Europe, Russia have announced they are suspending the loans pending the stabilisation of the government.

Additionally the protests have been spreading east, as you correctly identified, there are multiple reasons behind the unrest.
As well as anger at the deal being dropped, is anger at the state of the economy (without the Russian loans they cant pay their bills), the corruption (the ex president was jailed on what are widely regarded as fraudulent charges after she was defeated in the elections), nationalist tensions (theirs still a lot of anger about the millions who died in Ukraine before independence, and the continued interference in Ukraine),and at the governments heavy handed response to the protestors before they became violent.

There are to main considerations on the question of whether it was the right decision, which is, what they need the west for, and what they need the east for. Frankly, the east is heavily dependent on Russia, it produces industrial goods and most of this flows into Russia. They apparently build about 97% of Russia helicopter engines. However the west is much more closely linked to Europe, and in the long term, it offers them far more trade opportunities, as well as increasing the chance of investment. Germany has invested heavily in Poland since it joined the EU and its economy has markedly improved.
The problem is that whilst Europe will continue to trade with Ukraine to an extent regardless of what path they choose, Russia has been threatening to essentially ban all their imports or put massive taxes on them if they join the European trade block.
Under that treat the Ukrainian president bowed to Russian pressure, but unfortunately for him, hes in catch 22. Hes appeased the Russians but hes majorly pissed of the Ukrainians.

I seriously doubt Yanukovych will win. The protestors have gained more and more ground.
As well as seizing multiple government buildings and forces most of its resignation (except the president), they were also offered the role of prime minister and deputy prime minister (the 2 opposition leaders). On top of that every escalation the government has made has inflamed the situation, from trying to clear peaceful protestors, shooting them, and passing draconian anti protest laws (which one week later, has now been revoked due to it increasing the protests).
As I stated before the protests are also moving east into his major support base.
The protestors actually made a local governor publicly resign in the streets.

The only escalation left is to declare a state of emergency, which is political suicide. The protestors will grow in numbers and frankly most of the west will probably condemn them for it, Europe is already warning them not to bring in the military.

And now the president has temporarily disappeared due to 'ill health'. I don't know which way the wind is blowing but I know the protestors aren't going to give in.

They are exceptionally organised and prepared to fight it as a war if it comes to it. I doubt it will but who knows.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25966962

An example of the mindsets of various elements of the opposition:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25949382

This is a pretty good analysis of various goings on in Ukraine but a long read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25927006

And then there's one on the protests leaders
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25910834

I also read some articles on the Russian state media about the protests but it was a little too biased to use as supporting evidence, they made some... colourfull statements.

tornadocam :
While I am sure certain members of Ukraine support communism, I dont think thats got a very strong hold in the country. Certainly they want more liberal, perhaps socialist policies, such as job creation, but this is more about the authoritarian nature of the government.
Also im pretty sure America isnt going to get involved in the sense you infer.
Although having read Russian articles the one thing I wonder is whether western leaders visting the protest camps is a step too far. They are continually doing that.



Iv been following it pretty closely and I do think its passed the halfway mark, but iv been wrong before.
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02-04-14 08:10 PM
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If you don't get news about affairs outside the USA in your own newspaper in your own country, here is a recent article if you are truly interested about the situation in Ukraine. From my local news paper. And in English for your convenience.

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/world-news/international-news/9185-ukraine-s-president-accuses-opposition-of-escalating-crisis.html

The problem there is corruption basically. And you would have to understand the orange revolution what happened back there basically and now the sad fact is that people like neo-nazis are trying to take control of part of the protests when it used be just average citizens... Well lets see how this goes.

And forget this bull about communism. Communism has come and gone in eastern Europe. Also it is a fact USA is never going to do anything, even if it turns out in a full scale civil war,
If you don't get news about affairs outside the USA in your own newspaper in your own country, here is a recent article if you are truly interested about the situation in Ukraine. From my local news paper. And in English for your convenience.

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/world-news/international-news/9185-ukraine-s-president-accuses-opposition-of-escalating-crisis.html

The problem there is corruption basically. And you would have to understand the orange revolution what happened back there basically and now the sad fact is that people like neo-nazis are trying to take control of part of the protests when it used be just average citizens... Well lets see how this goes.

And forget this bull about communism. Communism has come and gone in eastern Europe. Also it is a fact USA is never going to do anything, even if it turns out in a full scale civil war,
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02-18-14 09:03 PM
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thenumberone :

Yep, pretty much nothing about this here in the United Federation. I wish I could get more coverage of European politics, but on the other hand, I'm glad I don't need to get upset about outrageous political decisions in other countries as well all of the sudden.
thenumberone :

Yep, pretty much nothing about this here in the United Federation. I wish I could get more coverage of European politics, but on the other hand, I'm glad I don't need to get upset about outrageous political decisions in other countries as well all of the sudden.
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02-18-14 09:33 PM
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thenumberone : Simmer down.  I know you love criticizing North America and especially the U.S.  It's your thing.  We get it.  We Americans also get news about Ukraine and their politics.  One guy simply hadn't heard it yet.
thenumberone : Simmer down.  I know you love criticizing North America and especially the U.S.  It's your thing.  We get it.  We Americans also get news about Ukraine and their politics.  One guy simply hadn't heard it yet.
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02-19-14 04:29 AM
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warmaker :

And we al know how sensitive you are to your country being criticised.
BUt let me ask you this. How many Topics here cover the uk? Or the eu? Or asia? Or the middle east? Its a predominantly american page. Hence the discussion is mostly oriented that way. In this scenario its no secret that american media is mostly focussed on america. And any nation iv been to has had a far wider spread.
Howecer if there were a discussion on say, Britains interventionism, or its retention of an entire panel of unelected leaders, or Europes policys on self determination, I would have much to say about that.
You either assume I only have qualms with america, or you take offence because I am not in fact american, but those who try suspects in court neither saw the crime or have commited the crime themselves.
The point their being their is as much legitimacy in me getting a say as anyone else.
That is how democracy works.
Ifi started having discussions about recent events in the ivory coast, the unrest in catelonia, the basque nationalists, the exodus of frances elite, the progresion of italys party problems, would you know what I was talking about? Would anyone else?
So I discuss america.
I dont choose the topic, I just partake.
And I will 'simmer' as iam.
warmaker :

And we al know how sensitive you are to your country being criticised.
BUt let me ask you this. How many Topics here cover the uk? Or the eu? Or asia? Or the middle east? Its a predominantly american page. Hence the discussion is mostly oriented that way. In this scenario its no secret that american media is mostly focussed on america. And any nation iv been to has had a far wider spread.
Howecer if there were a discussion on say, Britains interventionism, or its retention of an entire panel of unelected leaders, or Europes policys on self determination, I would have much to say about that.
You either assume I only have qualms with america, or you take offence because I am not in fact american, but those who try suspects in court neither saw the crime or have commited the crime themselves.
The point their being their is as much legitimacy in me getting a say as anyone else.
That is how democracy works.
Ifi started having discussions about recent events in the ivory coast, the unrest in catelonia, the basque nationalists, the exodus of frances elite, the progresion of italys party problems, would you know what I was talking about? Would anyone else?
So I discuss america.
I dont choose the topic, I just partake.
And I will 'simmer' as iam.
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02-19-14 06:30 AM
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thenumberone : Few topics cover Europe or Asia.  Very few.  The population of Viz.com is primarily American, primarily young kids, and primarily about which Pokemon is the best and how often we brush our teeth.

This isn't an especially political website.  I would love to see world events discussed with intellect and interest

1.  Belgium just legalized euthanasia without age limits.
2.  Stem cells *may* be able to be developed from blood cells with acid
3.  Latvia just joined the Eurozone

Heck, the Scottish Independence Referendum is being held later this summer.  That's huge news with a massive impact on the world.  The problem is we have a lot of 12 year old kids who watch what their parents watch and don't go out of their way to check BBC or associated press and international news.

I'm not sensitive to criticism of the United States.  Many are a loud, vulgar, ethnocentric and hostile people.  Many think nothing important can ever happen outside our borders.  Many ignore the history of China, who has forever been the economic powerhouse of the world and many Americans think we're first and everyone else is second class.

I get it.  I served in the military and lived in Japan.  I know how the perception is and you're not off base when you say some of the things you do.  The only problem I have, and why I comment, is the part where you group everyone into that group.

 "News in North America must suck."

Some doesn't.  We have some very good news outlets.  Canadian Broadcasting Channel (CBC) does excellent work and they're available.  National Public Radio (NPR) focuses most of their efforts on international news and events.

I'm only asking you don't lump all Americans together.  There are many who are well-read, who understand and follow world politics and who are respectful of other cultures.  We may not be the majority, but we're there. 

I'm sensitive to being grouped in with the other clowns.
thenumberone : Few topics cover Europe or Asia.  Very few.  The population of Viz.com is primarily American, primarily young kids, and primarily about which Pokemon is the best and how often we brush our teeth.

This isn't an especially political website.  I would love to see world events discussed with intellect and interest

1.  Belgium just legalized euthanasia without age limits.
2.  Stem cells *may* be able to be developed from blood cells with acid
3.  Latvia just joined the Eurozone

Heck, the Scottish Independence Referendum is being held later this summer.  That's huge news with a massive impact on the world.  The problem is we have a lot of 12 year old kids who watch what their parents watch and don't go out of their way to check BBC or associated press and international news.

I'm not sensitive to criticism of the United States.  Many are a loud, vulgar, ethnocentric and hostile people.  Many think nothing important can ever happen outside our borders.  Many ignore the history of China, who has forever been the economic powerhouse of the world and many Americans think we're first and everyone else is second class.

I get it.  I served in the military and lived in Japan.  I know how the perception is and you're not off base when you say some of the things you do.  The only problem I have, and why I comment, is the part where you group everyone into that group.

 "News in North America must suck."

Some doesn't.  We have some very good news outlets.  Canadian Broadcasting Channel (CBC) does excellent work and they're available.  National Public Radio (NPR) focuses most of their efforts on international news and events.

I'm only asking you don't lump all Americans together.  There are many who are well-read, who understand and follow world politics and who are respectful of other cultures.  We may not be the majority, but we're there. 

I'm sensitive to being grouped in with the other clowns.
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02-19-14 10:05 AM
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warmaker :
Fair enugh, you make some valid points.
Perhaps sometimes I do appear to group seperate people together,either Inadvertently or because I am simply not Not aware of the differences across the group.
Equally, whilst I try look into foreign affairs,. I understand that in media there are always liable to be discrepancys, dropped details or simply a lack of basic local knowledge. To that end I am liable to have made several mistakes, I can only concede that local knowledge can prove to be a tipping point.
I apology for grouping you into a category to which you dont fit, and will attempt to check myself from doing so in the future, though im as fallible as any one else so I dont expect to be perfect on that end.
At any rate though, mistakes are only bad if you fail to take something from them.
Iv looked at some american news broadcasters like fox, which has a blatant agenda, and then cnn, which while better written tends to have a limited scope.
I actually meant the usa specifically when refering to news In America. A mistake on mypart but in fairness you regularly refer to Britain as england
At any rate, I'll certainly check out cbc and npr.
warmaker :
Fair enugh, you make some valid points.
Perhaps sometimes I do appear to group seperate people together,either Inadvertently or because I am simply not Not aware of the differences across the group.
Equally, whilst I try look into foreign affairs,. I understand that in media there are always liable to be discrepancys, dropped details or simply a lack of basic local knowledge. To that end I am liable to have made several mistakes, I can only concede that local knowledge can prove to be a tipping point.
I apology for grouping you into a category to which you dont fit, and will attempt to check myself from doing so in the future, though im as fallible as any one else so I dont expect to be perfect on that end.
At any rate though, mistakes are only bad if you fail to take something from them.
Iv looked at some american news broadcasters like fox, which has a blatant agenda, and then cnn, which while better written tends to have a limited scope.
I actually meant the usa specifically when refering to news In America. A mistake on mypart but in fairness you regularly refer to Britain as england
At any rate, I'll certainly check out cbc and npr.
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02-19-14 02:37 PM
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(edited by Jordanv78 on 02-19-14 02:50 PM)    

02-19-14 05:37 PM
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Coming back to the Ukraine situation.

The main thing there is that the protestors mainly want what I think you and me, as I think people here are mostly is from, a western type government where you don't have to give a bribe for your doctor or any kind of official to get decent service. Some people had their faith about in it as if Ukraine would join the European union and thus, at first in the protest, they would wave EU flags. But what they don't know or care about is that European union is already a mess. Some countries were let in the union too quickly as in they never solved their problems with corruption and given the trust they were given, credit that was taken advantage of and an economical bubble was born. Which we who are members are still paying.

Russia ofcource wants Ukraine to be more close to their own economical sphere. Especially now that the EU is weak. The fact that the current government in Ukraine is more or less puppets to the Kreml is annoying people off who had high hopes that joining the Eu would stop the ogliarc and bureaucratic rule that they have there. And they would come for once a decent nation but sadly, in any case, it is not that simple. Yesterday around 20 people died if I remember it right.

But this has nothing to do with communism. This is more like a fight against Russian style of all out capitalism against European union style federal capitalism. Plus I think it is nuts to think about people are throwing molotov cocktails because they want to join an union where in my country there is a huge opposition which wants us to resign from it.? A vicious circle.
Coming back to the Ukraine situation.

The main thing there is that the protestors mainly want what I think you and me, as I think people here are mostly is from, a western type government where you don't have to give a bribe for your doctor or any kind of official to get decent service. Some people had their faith about in it as if Ukraine would join the European union and thus, at first in the protest, they would wave EU flags. But what they don't know or care about is that European union is already a mess. Some countries were let in the union too quickly as in they never solved their problems with corruption and given the trust they were given, credit that was taken advantage of and an economical bubble was born. Which we who are members are still paying.

Russia ofcource wants Ukraine to be more close to their own economical sphere. Especially now that the EU is weak. The fact that the current government in Ukraine is more or less puppets to the Kreml is annoying people off who had high hopes that joining the Eu would stop the ogliarc and bureaucratic rule that they have there. And they would come for once a decent nation but sadly, in any case, it is not that simple. Yesterday around 20 people died if I remember it right.

But this has nothing to do with communism. This is more like a fight against Russian style of all out capitalism against European union style federal capitalism. Plus I think it is nuts to think about people are throwing molotov cocktails because they want to join an union where in my country there is a huge opposition which wants us to resign from it.? A vicious circle.
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(edited by Brigand on 02-19-14 08:06 PM)     Post Rating: 1   Liked By: thenumberone,

02-19-14 08:24 PM
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thenumberone : The whole EU trade deal is highly overrated. I don't know where you're getting your figures from, but though Poland has  a fairly good economy, this started in the 1990's with economic liberalism. Just looking at its HDI over the last 22 years, there are no large changes from before and after 2004 (when it joined the EU). No doubt it does benefit somewhat from the German loans, but perhaps not so much from the austerity measures that accompany those loans. And even the growth benefits are masked by the massive amount of workers who have taken advantage of EU border policy to immigrate to other countries to find work.

And Ukraine isn't anywhere near getting into the EU. However, the protesters are so desperate to westernize and improve their standard of living that they intrinsically see any ties with Europe as being progressive and good and any ties with Russia as being recessive and bad. They don't realize that signing with the EU really won't make much of a difference from signing with Russia, except that natural gas will be harder to buy.

And sadly, corruption is ingrained in the political system, and the voters are in large part to blame. Think back a decade or so ago to the "Orange Revolution" where Yanukovych was thrown out over claims of ballot fraud and Yuschenko was swept into power by mass support. Next election, the hero of the people, Yuschenko, was voted out with a tiny minority of votes, and Yanokovych won back his seat at the top. The people want band-aid solutions and have a collective short-term memory. It's not a good combination. Yanokovych is indeed screwed and will probably have to wait another six years before the voters trust him again.

thenumberone : The whole EU trade deal is highly overrated. I don't know where you're getting your figures from, but though Poland has  a fairly good economy, this started in the 1990's with economic liberalism. Just looking at its HDI over the last 22 years, there are no large changes from before and after 2004 (when it joined the EU). No doubt it does benefit somewhat from the German loans, but perhaps not so much from the austerity measures that accompany those loans. And even the growth benefits are masked by the massive amount of workers who have taken advantage of EU border policy to immigrate to other countries to find work.

And Ukraine isn't anywhere near getting into the EU. However, the protesters are so desperate to westernize and improve their standard of living that they intrinsically see any ties with Europe as being progressive and good and any ties with Russia as being recessive and bad. They don't realize that signing with the EU really won't make much of a difference from signing with Russia, except that natural gas will be harder to buy.

And sadly, corruption is ingrained in the political system, and the voters are in large part to blame. Think back a decade or so ago to the "Orange Revolution" where Yanukovych was thrown out over claims of ballot fraud and Yuschenko was swept into power by mass support. Next election, the hero of the people, Yuschenko, was voted out with a tiny minority of votes, and Yanokovych won back his seat at the top. The people want band-aid solutions and have a collective short-term memory. It's not a good combination. Yanokovych is indeed screwed and will probably have to wait another six years before the voters trust him again.

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02-19-14 08:47 PM
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Traduweise :

What you say is pretty much how it is. After all this trouble with people dead and all I just wonder who are what is the alternative? The Nazi guy who they already had there discussing as some sort of a delegate of the opposition? Hope not.

But they way way it is Ukraine is never going to be part of the EU. If it is, the Eu is even more screwed up that it already is but if EU only now pays attention it is already so late. Think about the Baltic countries and some other eastern block countries. They became part of the warshaw pact and Soviet union after the WWII. Ukraine, on the other hand became part of the eastern block already in the twenties. Maybe that is why they are so forgotten in the union.

Yet again. What good it did for us to have Romania in the union. Or even Greece? Do even the yuppie side of the union want another failed rioting state to join the ones we already have when the ones we do have who pay all the dues like good old boys are already having problems internally to be part of the parade where we have to pay for every corrupt former eastern country and their taxes and their bribes and their whatever and being the only ones left who actually are doing what they were supposed to be?

No way.
Traduweise :

What you say is pretty much how it is. After all this trouble with people dead and all I just wonder who are what is the alternative? The Nazi guy who they already had there discussing as some sort of a delegate of the opposition? Hope not.

But they way way it is Ukraine is never going to be part of the EU. If it is, the Eu is even more screwed up that it already is but if EU only now pays attention it is already so late. Think about the Baltic countries and some other eastern block countries. They became part of the warshaw pact and Soviet union after the WWII. Ukraine, on the other hand became part of the eastern block already in the twenties. Maybe that is why they are so forgotten in the union.

Yet again. What good it did for us to have Romania in the union. Or even Greece? Do even the yuppie side of the union want another failed rioting state to join the ones we already have when the ones we do have who pay all the dues like good old boys are already having problems internally to be part of the parade where we have to pay for every corrupt former eastern country and their taxes and their bribes and their whatever and being the only ones left who actually are doing what they were supposed to be?

No way.
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02-21-14 08:10 PM
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Traduweise :

I disagree on that count. Srandardised trade is very beneficial. In fact the eu and usa are working on one right now, worth billions to each economy.
Im aware that Ukraine isnt near to getting eu membership, as I said it was a partial trade deal. And that has a good effect on nations. Half of turkeys liberal reforms wouldnt have been made if not for the eu harbouring their hopes to join the eu.
As brigand stated, certain nations were allowed in too fast, bulgaria would be my main example.
The Russian union has no political requirements, so in fact the difference is far larger than you realise.
Especially since the eu already has, and is forming, trade deals with other, non European nations.


Your first analysis of the situation was that the older order would win, mine was that they had already lost.
And here today, ukraine has caved, there will be fresh elections. Both for parliament, and for a president.
They will return to the 2004 constitution.
And the political prisoners will be freed.
Its still not over, but they were always going to lose.
Traduweise :

I disagree on that count. Srandardised trade is very beneficial. In fact the eu and usa are working on one right now, worth billions to each economy.
Im aware that Ukraine isnt near to getting eu membership, as I said it was a partial trade deal. And that has a good effect on nations. Half of turkeys liberal reforms wouldnt have been made if not for the eu harbouring their hopes to join the eu.
As brigand stated, certain nations were allowed in too fast, bulgaria would be my main example.
The Russian union has no political requirements, so in fact the difference is far larger than you realise.
Especially since the eu already has, and is forming, trade deals with other, non European nations.


Your first analysis of the situation was that the older order would win, mine was that they had already lost.
And here today, ukraine has caved, there will be fresh elections. Both for parliament, and for a president.
They will return to the 2004 constitution.
And the political prisoners will be freed.
Its still not over, but they were always going to lose.
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02-21-14 08:16 PM
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Something about their government. I don't really know for sure but my friend was showing me pictures and their riots are insane. They seriously just turn stuff to rubble.
Something about their government. I don't really know for sure but my friend was showing me pictures and their riots are insane. They seriously just turn stuff to rubble.
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02-22-14 04:31 PM
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They freed Julia Tymoshenko, the most stylish lady to ever be in politics. Ever. Anywhere. What good it will ever do especially in this situation remains to be seen. I guess she had her hands dirty to some degree in the past too or who knows, maybe it was all just lies. Cant remember the whole ordeal but still, an interesting turn in events.

Janukovitsh on the other hand says he is not going to resign, yet he was given the boot by the parliament. I just hope all out civil war can be avoided.
They freed Julia Tymoshenko, the most stylish lady to ever be in politics. Ever. Anywhere. What good it will ever do especially in this situation remains to be seen. I guess she had her hands dirty to some degree in the past too or who knows, maybe it was all just lies. Cant remember the whole ordeal but still, an interesting turn in events.

Janukovitsh on the other hand says he is not going to resign, yet he was given the boot by the parliament. I just hope all out civil war can be avoided.
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02-22-14 11:08 PM
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thenumberone : Standard trade can be beneficial, just as joining the EU can be beneficial. It isn't always, especially if your country isn't ready for it. Look at Greece. If there was ever a country that shouldn't have been admitted to the EU, it's Greece. The country was already crumbling, but the government promised to turn it all around. It even falsified its own financial records to make it  look more viable economically. Now it's a wallowing mess, the EU has spent billions of euros trying unsuccessfully to bail it out, and the people are generally pissed off about it.

But hey, Yanukovitch is getting eased out by his own government. If Ukraine can elect someone else, there will surely be great talk of change and progress, people will cheer, violence will end, and life will return to normal. In a few years, nothing significant will have happened and everyone will have forgotten about it.
thenumberone : Standard trade can be beneficial, just as joining the EU can be beneficial. It isn't always, especially if your country isn't ready for it. Look at Greece. If there was ever a country that shouldn't have been admitted to the EU, it's Greece. The country was already crumbling, but the government promised to turn it all around. It even falsified its own financial records to make it  look more viable economically. Now it's a wallowing mess, the EU has spent billions of euros trying unsuccessfully to bail it out, and the people are generally pissed off about it.

But hey, Yanukovitch is getting eased out by his own government. If Ukraine can elect someone else, there will surely be great talk of change and progress, people will cheer, violence will end, and life will return to normal. In a few years, nothing significant will have happened and everyone will have forgotten about it.
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02-24-14 10:16 PM
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I believe that the U.S is involved with events in Ukraine. Until 1991 Ukraine was part of the Soviet Bloc of influence, however after the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine has been caught in the middle of having relationships with Russia or with the West(U.S and Western Europe mainly). I feel that the populace has been caught in the middle of this struggle. Recently, two American ambassadors in Ukraine were overheard and recorded discussing ways in which the U.S can turn the rebellion into a pro-western outlook. 
I believe that the U.S is involved with events in Ukraine. Until 1991 Ukraine was part of the Soviet Bloc of influence, however after the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine has been caught in the middle of having relationships with Russia or with the West(U.S and Western Europe mainly). I feel that the populace has been caught in the middle of this struggle. Recently, two American ambassadors in Ukraine were overheard and recorded discussing ways in which the U.S can turn the rebellion into a pro-western outlook. 
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03-01-14 12:50 PM
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Plot twist, Russia essentially planning to invade Ukraine, interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26400035

Plot twist, Russia essentially planning to invade Ukraine, interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26400035

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