Zlinqx : Ever stop to think that they removed the death penalty because they did not need it? Just because this is the case in a few places, that's not good enough to say that the death penalty doesn't work. Why is the crime rate lower in switzerland? What are the people like there? And those other states you mentioned...which ones? There are many factors that could lower murders and crime rate in general...not just the absence or presence of the death penalty. There are a wide range of things it could be. GOD-fearing people, people that just don't see any point in doing it, people that are content with what they have. You name it. Did you ever stop to think that Switzerland is one of the most industrious nations? Why does everyone like to put their money in Switzerland? Because they know it will be safe. What's the unemployement rate in those states? That is also a possible factor. Just some things to think about.

Zlinqx : You punish them to deter other people. They won't do it if they know what hell is coming

I'm sadistic, and this is what I do during school. I've only given not-so graphic versions of my lesser ones.

Titan127 : Thanks for replying wasn't able to address faithfighter since I had made too many back and forth posts.

FaithFighter : Firstly SWEDEN not Switzerland. And I'd expect people in the us to be more god fearing since Sweden has one of the highest percentage of non religious people. And the unemployment rate while a bit lower here compared to the US isn't THAT much lower. I'm instead wondering what makes you think the death penalty would lower the crime rate when there's no actual statistics to argue that it would and if anything points to the opposite.

I don't think any government or any person has the right to decide who lives or who dies. Humans are not God and life is precious. Everybody was put on this world for a reason. This kinda makes me think of the quote from Doctor Who. "In a thousand years I have never met anyone who wasn't important ."  An that made me think how right he was. take one person out of the equations and the smallest things can make other things not happen. So how has anyone on this earth earned the right to take that life away? People do a lot of horrible things. That is  life. But until we are walking in their shoes I feel we have no right to judge. An especially who lives or who dies.

lilythetigerkity :

So...what? Let the Pope, or maybe your local bishop(I'm not Catnolic, but those are some cool dudes, even non-Christians should agree to that) decide on life or death? Look man, God gave humanity free will, and these people have abused it, so we punish them and wield the gift just fully.



PS-And Doctor Who is right, but the thing is that many of those people are important in the wrong ways. Adolf Hitler? Josef Stalin? VERY important people. But not rightfully. They slaughtered the Jews and oppressed their people with the iron fist of fascism and communism, respectively, and with their armies.



Do you really think that they deserved to live? Of course, these are the extremes of true evil, but you know what I mean.
Zlinqx: No problem, I put in a short one due to time contraints as well.
And lol this debate is gettin' good.

Titan127 : Not all people believe in god, and why should you let the pope of all people decide who lives or dies? Humans are flawed beings and we make mistakes no single person should have that kind of power. And yeah lets just ignore the right to a trial and everything that constitutes living in a democratic country.

Titan127 : First I would like to say that I clearly said in my post that NO ONE has the right and the Pope is a someone. Second I would like to point out that I was raised Catholic and the Catholic church is against capital punishment. Third my opinion not only pointed out the religious way of looking at it. But could also hold to a person who is not religious. Last but not least I was not trying to start a war about religion nor will I be part of it. I believe opinions are like butts everyone has one and religion easily fits into that category. Simply because everyone has a different view point on it.  Capital Punishment fits into the same category as many things like abortion and there is always going to be the people for it, against it, or the ones that is depends on the situation. Mine in this case is against.

It is interesting to think about this from a human life perspective. If we can't ever truly know death (as a society), should we still deal it out?

From this perspective, I'd only advocate death if it's necessary to stop future killings. And jail insofar as it limits the person from doing harm to society. "Justice" wouldn't matter in this ideology since we can't truly gauge fair punishments for actions. Interesting.

lilythetigerkity : that's what I'm saying. I should've been more clear.
If nobody has the right to dish this kind of thing out, what happens? They'll get punished by God? Nope. Not really. You know that though.
So we punish them here[i/]. On earth, where we still can. We torture them to death or until they die of age. Because they aren't human anymore, they are beneath society, these men (and women) are worse than animals.

Titan127 : That makes a lot more sense in my eyes anyway maybe not to go as far as torture. But I have always felt like death was the easy way out.

Titan127 : Torturing shows nothing but that we are no better than them. Showing people it is wrong to murder by murdering even more slowly? Seems hypocritical. More violence isn't going to solve anything.

Oh and you know all the other reasons I listed in previous posts on why it shouldn't even be an option.

Zlinqx : No better? They started this, and we end it. You think that any agony we inflict upon their god-forsaken souls compares, even in the slightest, to what the victim's families endured? To what the victim's felt just before their lives were cut short, or as their bodies were being abused in every way possible?
They get what they deserve.

Titan127 : And what if the victim doesn't want that person to die because it's sinking to the same level as the murderer, it's showing that you are no better then that person because it shows murder can still be justifiable.

It doesn't work like that, either murder should be wrong and nobody is allowed to do it or it is allowed. There can't be in between because no person or group has the right to decide what makes it okay to take another person's life. The government should set that example they shouldn't be partial, If the government says murder is wrong but then justify punishing people by murdering themselves how can you take them seriously?

More violence doesn't solve anything, it wont deter people and the action wont be undone. And it will result in innocent people dying, maybe the majority isn't but some are and they will die simply for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Who will stand up for those people's family who watched them die and be called scum when they in truth did nothing wrong? Are you going to punish the people who accused him? Or the judge who found the person guilty?

And while this is kind of off topic since you seem to be a god believing person who uses god in your reasoning, why do you need to murder that person? Wont they face judgement eventually anyways?

Zlinqx : It isn't murder. There is a bold line between killing and murder, and this is far from that line. They were practically begging for it. And once again you can't get accurate stats on innocents because almost all of that is speculation.

Titan127: You're still showing killing is wrong by killing. and while there may be speculations on just how many people are innocently convicted there will be people who are and then it really is murder.

Zlinqx : You can't prove that except for in a few cases.  Not to mention that the whole 'killing is just as bad' thing, these are two completely ideologies that qwe can't use to argue because they can't be debated. If you have another legitimate argument then please use it, because this is us going in circles right now and not getting anything actually done.

Titan127 : It's kind of weird to hear you say that you've already heard my other arguments and you haven't refuted them. And no matter how you look at it killing people to show killing is wrong is hypocritical. And there will be cases where people qre innocently convicted. Should these people be punished when having a death penalty doesn't help at an economic level or as a deterrent for crime. It simply serves as some kind of revenge.

Zlinqx : Once again, it isn't hypocritical. They killed, therefore they deserve to be killed. Is that such a difficult concept to understand?