warmaker : There have been a few cases that appear to be animal suicide. There was a Newfoundland dog somewhere around 1840 or so, for example. This dog was reported to have been showing signs of depression. Eventually, the dog kept throwing himself in water and remaining motionless to sink. This happened multiple times, but the owner kept saving him from drowning. They eventually tied him up to keep him from doing this. He escaped his rope one day, went to the water, held his head underwater, and drowned.

Another was Kathy the dolphin (the 1960's "Flipper"). Later in her life, she showed signs of depression. Dolphins don't breathe unconsciously like we do (since they only breathe when they surface). So for them, it isn't a reflex to breath when they don't get air. The only way to breathe is if they consciously do it. Her trainer reported one day swimming into his arms, looking him in the eye, took one more breath, and didn't take another until she died. That was when he decided to become an animal rights activist and speak out against that kind of captivity.

There are some other documented unexplained cases, such as the 450 sheep that jumped off a cliff in Turkey seemingly unprovoked and un-spooked, or the bears that were mistreated in captivity and starved themselves to death in China.

Now, because these creatures couldn't articulate what was going on in their minds, it is possible that there is a different explanation. But because we have no way of that level of communication, it is just as plausible that it was indeed suicide. The first two seem more likely because they showed signs of depression.

rcarter2 : that 1840's dog story is horribly depressing   

One of my analysis is that people fear death more than they fear the future. Another reason could be that they are scared of pain or some sort of moral/religous belief. This is some basic psycology. You may not fear death but you it's your primative human instincts that stop you. This is quite difficult for me to explain so I'll do my best.

Suicide is something anyone can do with little to no difficulty. But what is keeping you back could be for some the fear of what comes next. A common religous belief is that suicide doesn't get you into heaven. For those who don't believe in and afterlife it could be a loved one. Even though you want to die knowing you won't see them again, you may not want them to get hurt.

But I'll get back to my main reason. For someone who wants to do it and has nothing holding them back, like I said before it is human instinct. Peoples first instinct is living and to live for as long as possible. People cope with many things no matter how bad the situation gets because they want to survive. If suicide is your first answer to every negative thing that's when mental health is called into question. In most cases instinct keeps you alive more than knowledge does.

UFC : Right? Extremely depressing. I guess it is possible to say that something happened to the dog's brain that caused him to do that, but no more possible than suicide from depression. It is weird how when it comes to people you don't know and animals you don't know, sad animal deaths strike a stronger cord than the human ones.

I thought the dolphin one was really sad too, considering what really goes on with trained sea creatures. So many trainers have left their profession because they couldn't stand being a part of it.

Why don't more people kill themselves? Simple - They want to live. All they're really wanting is attention and help, they don't actually want to die. It's either a want to live, or a fear of death.

rcarter2 : Yeah, I agree. Just envision yourself as the trainer of that dolphin... That would tear me up inside.

mrfe : Please do not simply dismiss it as a call or a want for attention. That may be the case for some, and a lot of people could be helped with a little bit of attention, but a lot of people have serious thoughts about committing suicide. Dismissing those thoughts as the people just wanting attention is insulting to those with a real problem. My friend recently committed suicide. Why did he do it? I do not know. However, he did not ask for attention (he had enough as it is being popular), he did not go to people to say, "I am thinking about committing suicide, love me". Or something along those lines. He just up and shot himself in the middle of the day. It was not a call for attention. There are people like him out there that actually need help. So again, please do not just dismiss it as a call for attention, or a plea for help, because it isn't. 

Now, I am not sure if you intended it to come off that way or not, but it irked me. My apologies. 

rcarter2 : Yeah if I ever watch a movie and something bad happens to an animal it can completely take me out of the movie then and there even though it isn't real. If a human gets it I say meh probably deserved it haha

sop281 : I wasn't referring to the actually depressed people, I apologize for coming across this way. I should have better articulated my post. I'm sorry for your loss.

I was, however, referring to what I perceived this thread to really be about: People who don't actually commit suicide due to simply needing attention or help. They don't actually intend to commit suicide, they want the attention that comes from that. Those are the people my post was referring to.

mrfe : Oh, you were only referring to the specific group of people. It all makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up. 

rcarter2 : In response to your comment, "That instinct is the true reason, everything else is a mechanism that preserves it."

Are you speaking only in terms of the fears that you mentioned? I.e., religious fears, fear of death, etc. If it is only the fears that you are addressing, then your comment would make more sense to me, although I would still have to disagree with it. But if you are talking also about those who believe they would hurt others by committing suicide and those who believe that life holds nothing for them, then it seems that your statement is in direct contradiction to your statement here:

"From what I have experienced, those who end up actually taking that leap into suicide is because at that point, they truly feel that it is the best option. They feel that their own lives not only are complete misery for them, but serves no true benefit to anyone around them, including anyone who might be considered close to them."

I don't want to be insensitive, as you are possibly speaking directly about people who you have lost. But I want to mention that if the case were different, and we were speaking about people who believed that either A) their life still might take a turn for the better or B) their life does have benefit for others around them, then these hypothetical people might change their minds about committing suicide. Their reason for not killing themselves would then not be that instinct of preservation, but hope for a better future or concern for others.

Addressing whether the specific fears you mentioned are a veil to hide that instinct of preservation, I don't believe that is always the case. Religious fear, for example, seems particularly strong. If an individual truly believes that committing suicide will cause them to spend an eternity in misery, all their rationale about a life in misery now and about them being useless wastes of space can pale in comparison to not wanting to burn in hell.

I do think the instinct of preservation plays a strong role in who ends up doing the deed and who doesn't, but I also think it's important to recognize the many cases where this isn't what's going on. If instinct of preservation is the only true reason for not following through, letting a person know that they are wanted and loved when they are nearing the edge becomes a waste of time. Again, I'm not sure that's what you were trying to say, but wanted to address it.

I should also mention that I don't think telling somebody who is thinking about suicide that they might burn in hell for their actions is appropriate. Not only do I think that it's not true, I think that will cause the person to withdraw themselves from you and not accept help from you in the future. But should fear -ever- play a role in the decision to stay alive? I'm really not sure, and I guess it's outside of the scope of this thread to talk about.

CatLady : I understand that the thread is for the ones who don't end up committing suicide. But I bring up the situations of ones who have as a base comparison. I have had a couple friends commit suicide, but I can't say I was specifically talking about those 2 people. I can't very well ask them what they were feeling and why they did it. I did work at the mental health center here, crisis situations being one of the things I did. I worked mainly with kids and teens. When one would be put on crisis, it wasn't uncommon for it to be due to legitimate suicide attempt. I worked with a lot of kids that would have succeeded had someone not showed up in time. Part of my job was to discuss this with them when they were in crisis for attempting suicide. Generally, it is pretty much always the same reason that I stated. Some articulate it differently, but that is the basic summation of what almost all of them said.

As far as fear goes, I was talking about all fear. Fear is a developed mechanism to preserve life. Just like pain is a developed mechanism to avoid harmful things, fear is a mechanism that is developed to keep us away from danger. That is just a fact. Now, as humans, we have articulated labels for different kinds of fear. Mortal fear, religious fear, etc. They are just labels. But all it is is just fear aroused from different situations/reasons. But on a base line, fear is just a mechanism to keep us from something dangerous or highly unpleasant. Just like pain. Only fear is an earlier response, as you can experience fear from anticipating pain. It is fine if you disagree with it, but it doesn't change that biologically speaking, fear is a mechanism.

I don't see how the other part about people who believe they would hurt others is a direct contradiction, or for that matter, a contradiction at all. If I had said that all situations in which someone chooses not to do suicide is because of fear, then it would have been contradictory. But I never said or implied that that was the case in ALL situations. The hurting others thing is a completely different situation, and is not meant to be grouped with the fear situation part of my discussion.

I agree that it isn't appropriate to tell someone contemplating suicide that they were burn in hell. I checked my post, and I never said that. I said religious fear, but I never actually went into detail on that one. Didn't even really discuss it. Just threw it in to a list. You might be mixing my post with someone else's, because I never even said the word 'hell' in my other posts here.

Again, it is fine if you disagree with me. Nobody has to. But when it comes to religious fear, I agree that it is particularly powerful. But all 'religious fear' is (to me) is just another articulation and constructive reasoning of a specific situation in regards to fear. Biologically speaking, again, fear is the mechanism to keep us from something seen as harmful, dangerous, unpleasant, etc. When it comes to fears, different things spark different levels of fear for different people. Religion is a powerful thing as many base their existence on it. So it would only be natural for religious fear to be particularly powerful. But the power a fear does not somehow transcend it from the purpose of fear, which I won't repeat since I already did twice. The strength of a fear only measures that (strength). Just because it is a fear of what will happen in the afterlife, which wouldn't effect your physical life, doesn't mean it isn't still a life preserving mechanism. You are using the fear of a bad afterlife to preserve your physical one.
But on top of that, I mentioned that fear is not JUST a mechanism for avoiding death. Also danger, pain, something unpleasant, etc. For those who believe in the afterlife, that means that their physical life is not the end, so the afterlife plays into the physical one as well. Going to hell would definitely fall under pain and unpleasant. So avoiding suicide to avoid an eternity of that definitely falls under the definition of the fear mechanic in regards to life.

"I do think the instinct of preservation plays a strong role in who ends up doing the deed and who doesn't, but I also think it's important to recognize the many cases where this isn't what's going on. If instinct of preservation is the only true reason for not following through, letting a person know that they are wanted and loved when they are nearing the edge becomes a waste of time"
Completely untrue. As stated earlier, people who follow through are living a life where their own self worth is so little that the willingness to live is not enough for that instinct to preserve them. Any creature can (and do) act against instinct. Letting someone know they are loved and wanted can be thing that raises their self worth to bring their willingness to live to a point where the instinct is not acted against. Now, if instinct were this unavoidable thing that we can't consciously defy, then your statement would hold true. But any person, and any animal, can consciously make a controlled decision that acts against their natural instinct. So in a case like suicide, it is a matter of seeing your life as worth something so you don't consciously make the decision to ignore the instinct. Those who don't commit suicide clearly can't act against it.

"But should fear -ever- play a role in the decision to stay alive?"
It is, by no means, out of the scope. Of course it should play a role. That is what the purpose of feeling fear is in the first place. It is a mechanism to preserve life. Fear is what causes someone to run faster and fight harder than possible when death is staring you in the face. Now, that might be taking what you said out of context, since you mentioned telling someone they will burn in hell. Are you asking 'should fear ever be a tool someone uses to make someone decide to stay alive"? If that is the question, then I agree that that may be out of the scope of this thread.

rcarter2 : Ah, I believe I understand your position a bit better now. But first, that last paragraph wasn't addressed to you; I added it as a disclaimer because if someone really read into my post, they might think that was what I was trying to say. My apologies; I should have made that more obvious.

I agree that fear is a mechanism to keep us from danger. My Christian beliefs make it hard for me to say that fears are just mechanisms regarding life on earth, but I have nothing to base that on other than my own personal conviction, so I'll leave that alone.

So in the end, I actually agree with a lot more of what you were saying than I thought I did. I find your point in your next-to-last paragraph most interesting. I agree with it, but I also think there is another way of looking at it. If I'm reading you right, you're saying that in the case of those you mentioned, they choose not to commit suicide because their self image has been brought back up to the point where their instincts can again take control. I'll give an example of something from my life. Several of my friends have mentioned not fearing death. Not in the sense of not dreading death, but in the sense of, they wouldn't actually mind if they keeled over and died tomorrow. The people I'm mentioning have one mental illness or another, as do I, so I'm not belittling. Were these people to reach a point of more or less perfect mental health, would they then fear death? Well, in the sense that we're talking about I think yes. But these people, in the state that they're in, choose not to commit suicide not due to some active fear of death on their own account, but concern for others. This can still be articulated as a fear; they fear the loss their loved ones will sustain. But in a more colloquial sense, it was not fear that drove them but a sense of concern.

Really, I bring that up because I think that the positive motivators for people - love, a will to experience life, and even a sense of duty (which I recognize is a really complex motivator) are just as important as the fears that keep them from death. I'm not saying that you don't. Just explaining why I'm still talking.

I guess when I was asking if fear should play a role, I was talking about certain types of fear, like fear of the unknown and fear of the pain of death. Because, it seems to me, in an ideal world, that should never have to be what keeps you from death.

(Side note: I haven't been active on the forum lately, but I've enjoyed the excuse to think deeply about things. Good talk.)
(Second side note: I really need to get a new layout; this one is hard to read.)

legacyme3 :

Ya know. . . that's fairly insightful.

I think that you've got it leg.

When I started reading your post, I thought the same- it's human nature to survive. We wouldn't have come this far if we weren't survivors, and I think the people who commit suicide are exceptions to the rule, as there always is. I sometimes hmm... Contemplate suicide. I don't actually intend to do it, but I think about it. Then that part of you that talks you out of danger said, "What the hell are you thinking? You have it easy! There's no reason to end your life. Life is a gift, and to throw that away without any reason is just... wrong." Then I think, "Yes, that's true." We can't be that easy to break, because if we were, we wouldn't have become the dominant species. 

NOTE: Feel free to call BS on anything I say, as it is my opinion.

warmaker :   Yeah, now that I think about it maybe animals can get ostracized
or alienated from their own species, but we as humans may never know when they are. I kind of think animals get along in their own species, but mostly if they wanted to die, I think they would have to go looking for predators of their species and let the predators kill them, but I don't know any other way animals could do suicide. Well I guess animals could do suicide by jumping off high areas or drowning themselves, but I don't think an animal would want to go through anything to painful just to die like I think humans are in the same thought process about dying.

I can't say I truly have an opinion that I strongly believe in as it really depends on the person, Some may not commit suicide for a number of reasons whether it be, Fear of death, Fear of Not being remembered, Love, Greed, Spite or even laziness. 

Humans are too complex to understand. We all would do different things in the same situation so there's no definitive answer so to speak.

I just think that the people who are quiet and don't make it known they want to commit suicide do it because nobody notices them, They want for someone just to notice and care...

Also Drugs and alcohol usually come into play with suicide.. They kill our sense of logic and feeling so suicide is more common...

For the record walking into someone's room whilst there hanging by there neck dead isn't a pleasant experience but meh.. Life is life.. Death is Death..

AND MUFFINS IS TASTY... om nom nom

removed stupid post

I probably know this topic more then most people on Vizzed. I am someone who has really thought about this question, while thinking of whether suicide was worth it or not. Suicide is what everyone knows as a last resort, and that is exactly what it is. If all else fails, every little last option we have, we consider just ending it all. If we are dead, then what worries do we have to worry about? You're dead, as far as most people know, there are no big responsibilities and things to get done in the after life. People are a big reason on why many people consider this choice to end their problems, and if they go to heaven, they will be with the great people, all of which won't do bad to them and will only show them how it is to be happy. That is for Christians, and that is what I believe, somewhat. For other people, you have the theory of reincarnation, which is rebirth into the world on a social class based on how your previous life went. Suicide, as I said, is a last resort to complete unhappiness. This says that you had a really bad life, if you are ending it so quickly, so you will have a great life next time. See, if you were to kill yourself, you can skip the rest of your unhappy life and just move on to your good life, which will not fail you. This life will be perfect for you. The quicker that you can get to that state is better, right? Wrong. That way of thinking is not correct in any way. Because you ended your life early, that can be declared that you are trying to cheat the system in which your god put in place, which is an ultimate sin. Basically, suicide can seem like an amazing option to someone who has not fully gone into depth with what is really going to happen to you. The main reason to stop yourself from committing suicide is just straight fear. What if your after life is worse then the one that you are living right now? What do you do? In the after life, can you really kill yourself off again and start again in a third afterlife? That is not how I believe that god has set up the Earth and Heaven/hell. We don't know at all what will happen to us if we kill ourselves, so we decide to figure out later, and not really risk it.
Love. That is the second reason I am still here. I live to love other people, and for other people to love me. I really care about other people, and if I'm gone, what exactly is my love going to go? Will this person I loved so much think that they were the cause, and they weren't showing me enough love so I decided I didn't want them anymore, or myself? I have one person who truly loves me, and I would never do anything to. I live for her, without ever meeting her, I probably wouldn't be here right now typing this post. I would be in the ground, in heaven or hell, of just no where. Love is strong. Love is the strongest thing that you will ever experience. Love is binding, so binding. Without love, there wouldn't be anything.
~Barathemos 

I think it's because they realize that Suicide is the worst option ever.
You hurt other peoples.
You go to hell.
You Basically die.
And they might make someone else that loves him/her so much also committing suicide.
That's why I won't ever commit suicide.

I'm actually kind of glad that I've came across this thread. As a person who's had depression and suicidal thoughts since first grade, I would like to give my thoughts on this right now. I even used to hurt myself, but I haven't done it in a while. Thank god. I see it as a bittersweet ending to life. All your crap will be forever gone, but at the same time, There will be places you haven't seen. Places you haven't seen. How people will react. Maybe that's the reason why people don't do it. Because they constantly think of that.