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Do any western countries have good cause to fight Russia over Ukraine?

 

03-02-14 04:50 PM
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I saw the "What's going on in Ukraine?" post and I'm stepping it up for those who are actively following a real-world revolution.

Should the United States, England, etc, join in the fight against the Russians and provide military as well as fiscal support to the separatists in Ukraine?
I saw the "What's going on in Ukraine?" post and I'm stepping it up for those who are actively following a real-world revolution.

Should the United States, England, etc, join in the fight against the Russians and provide military as well as fiscal support to the separatists in Ukraine?
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03-02-14 06:02 PM
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Well, I think this is an incredibly interesting question. Mainly because I think we've reached the point where it's no longer a matter of "should" but instead a matter of "when."

Considering the alliances that America currently has in Europe, the Ukraine/Russia situation is basically are problem regardless of whether or not we want to intervene. And besides we're all about democracy right? Russia's intervention in Ukraine directly conflicts with out country's belief of a people determining their own government (provided that that government is a democracy).

Obama was actually quoted saying, "Right now, the situation remains very fluid. Vice President Biden just spoke with Prime Minister - the Prime Minister of Ukraine to assure him that in this difficult moment the United States supports his government’s efforts and stands for the sovereignty, territorial integrity and democratic future of Ukraine."

So basically Obama has already publicly stated that if crap gets any worse/new information comes to light in Ukraine, we're gonna get involved.
Well, I think this is an incredibly interesting question. Mainly because I think we've reached the point where it's no longer a matter of "should" but instead a matter of "when."

Considering the alliances that America currently has in Europe, the Ukraine/Russia situation is basically are problem regardless of whether or not we want to intervene. And besides we're all about democracy right? Russia's intervention in Ukraine directly conflicts with out country's belief of a people determining their own government (provided that that government is a democracy).

Obama was actually quoted saying, "Right now, the situation remains very fluid. Vice President Biden just spoke with Prime Minister - the Prime Minister of Ukraine to assure him that in this difficult moment the United States supports his government’s efforts and stands for the sovereignty, territorial integrity and democratic future of Ukraine."

So basically Obama has already publicly stated that if crap gets any worse/new information comes to light in Ukraine, we're gonna get involved.
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03-02-14 09:08 PM
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I think its a tough situation.

On one hand we should be helping out the Ukrainians and stop Russia from seizing Chimea and the rest of Ukraine if it reaches that point. I believe that Russia is invading the Ukraine only for territory.

On the other hand the entire world has grown tired of war. England voted against taking action in Syria, and I'm going to assume that England will also vote against any sort of armed intervention in the Ukraine. Because unlike Syria, Russia is a superpower and they have a more diverse army (not to mention nuclear weapons) compared to Syria. As to the United States, I believe Obama wants to get involved in the Ukraine, but most likely the Public and republicans will say that we don't want anymore wars.

Its a tricky issue and we should keep an eye as to what happens, before making a decision.
I think its a tough situation.

On one hand we should be helping out the Ukrainians and stop Russia from seizing Chimea and the rest of Ukraine if it reaches that point. I believe that Russia is invading the Ukraine only for territory.

On the other hand the entire world has grown tired of war. England voted against taking action in Syria, and I'm going to assume that England will also vote against any sort of armed intervention in the Ukraine. Because unlike Syria, Russia is a superpower and they have a more diverse army (not to mention nuclear weapons) compared to Syria. As to the United States, I believe Obama wants to get involved in the Ukraine, but most likely the Public and republicans will say that we don't want anymore wars.

Its a tricky issue and we should keep an eye as to what happens, before making a decision.
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03-02-14 11:32 PM
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Here is my take on this: 
No we do not have a good cause to fight Russia over Ukraine. I think what is going on in Ukraine should be their problem and not ours. I think it would be very costly if America and other western countries got involved. We (America) alone cannot be the world police. Sanctions would not hurt Russia, they are an economic and military power. If we need get in a military conflict with them it would be a disaster. I'm sorry for what is going on in  Ukraine and I pray for them. But this is not in America's best Interests. I do not know much about other western countries but I hope they would not get involved because most likely that would draw the USA in on it. 
Here is my take on this: 
No we do not have a good cause to fight Russia over Ukraine. I think what is going on in Ukraine should be their problem and not ours. I think it would be very costly if America and other western countries got involved. We (America) alone cannot be the world police. Sanctions would not hurt Russia, they are an economic and military power. If we need get in a military conflict with them it would be a disaster. I'm sorry for what is going on in  Ukraine and I pray for them. But this is not in America's best Interests. I do not know much about other western countries but I hope they would not get involved because most likely that would draw the USA in on it. 
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03-03-14 03:36 AM
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tornadocam :
You say that, but without any sanctions being brought in, their stock market dropped 9%. Equally the ruble is at an all time low.
Financially they are barely richer than the united kingdom (as opposed to england which isnt even an independent nation).
Thats despite the uk having half the population.
The money they have is mostly from oil.
That'd be pretty hard to embargo though, eastern europe is pretty dependent on it.
Especially ukraine. If russia cuts it, they are f*cked.
tornadocam :
You say that, but without any sanctions being brought in, their stock market dropped 9%. Equally the ruble is at an all time low.
Financially they are barely richer than the united kingdom (as opposed to england which isnt even an independent nation).
Thats despite the uk having half the population.
The money they have is mostly from oil.
That'd be pretty hard to embargo though, eastern europe is pretty dependent on it.
Especially ukraine. If russia cuts it, they are f*cked.
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03-03-14 08:10 PM
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I was thinking today.

"Oh man, I am happy my country is not in NATO. I dont want to kill or die over gas prices or over who gets to have their ships docked in some nowhere port somewhere."

I believe Russia has gone too far but I hope the economical and diplomatical sanctions are enough. Russia, who in case of Syria and with all dictatorships in the world, have always blabbed on about how "there should not be interference in the internal politics of nations" have now shown to be the most biggest hypocrites of all. What they did now was basically invaded a nation since the people kicked out their puppet government. Yet, there has been enough bloodshed already. Wish there would be a peaceful solution but Putins governments arrogance has never went this far... if this is totally tolerated who knows.

I don't know what you yankees think of the situation really but having this huge border right next to them and them having this sorry of a excuse for a mandate to invade foreign territory seems too much like the days of Stalin and Ivan the Terrible. But yeah, I am 95% sure nothing will come out of this....
I was thinking today.

"Oh man, I am happy my country is not in NATO. I dont want to kill or die over gas prices or over who gets to have their ships docked in some nowhere port somewhere."

I believe Russia has gone too far but I hope the economical and diplomatical sanctions are enough. Russia, who in case of Syria and with all dictatorships in the world, have always blabbed on about how "there should not be interference in the internal politics of nations" have now shown to be the most biggest hypocrites of all. What they did now was basically invaded a nation since the people kicked out their puppet government. Yet, there has been enough bloodshed already. Wish there would be a peaceful solution but Putins governments arrogance has never went this far... if this is totally tolerated who knows.

I don't know what you yankees think of the situation really but having this huge border right next to them and them having this sorry of a excuse for a mandate to invade foreign territory seems too much like the days of Stalin and Ivan the Terrible. But yeah, I am 95% sure nothing will come out of this....
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03-03-14 11:24 PM
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Nobody is going to war with Russia. That is just ridiculous. Sanctions will make the situation worse simply because Russia is so powerful: by sanctioning it, you drive a wedge further between Putin and the west. If any cooperation is to be had between the world's powers, this sort of gunslinger attitude must be abandoned. Putin has spent decades cultivating his strong-man persona. He is popular because the voters see him as the man to stand up for Russian interests against a hostile west; he will not back down if he feels that Russians in Crimea will be at risk.

This situation reminds me of an earlier incident  with Obama and Syria. Obama had promised not to get involved militarily with Syria unless the government actually used chemical weapons against its people. Obviously he was banking on Assad not being that stupid, so in this way he could appear strong and decisive while not actually engaging the US in a massively unpopular and draining conflict. Of course, a year later, it came out that Assad's forces had in all likelyhood used chemical weapons against the populace, and Obama was in a nasty spot. If he took the US into Syria, he would be crucified in the polls and lose most of his support. If he backed out, he would look weak in front of the world. At this point, Putin stepped in and "saved the day", so to speak. He sat the various factions down and worked out an agreement that the US would hold off on invading Syria if Syria allowed UN weapons inspectors in. Obama maintained his dignity, Syria was put in its place (sort of). Everyone was a winner. Well, except the Syrian people; their lives still suck.

The point is that this is a perfect opportunity for Obama to reciprocate. He, or a US-led UN coalition can act as an intermediary between Russia and the new Ukraine government and work something out. Once Ukraine has stabilized a little, I'm sure Putin can be persuaded to pull out Russian forces in exchange for a guarantee of stability. Whether or not a referendum on independence should be held is questionable, but hey, both the Ukrainian protesters and the west have been claiming to be on the side of democracy (even though Yanukovich was elected democratically). Independence would probably pass, but it would also probably further destabalize the region. Either way, this is the sort of conflict you resolve by being mature and sensible, not making angry rants like what John Kerry has done.
Nobody is going to war with Russia. That is just ridiculous. Sanctions will make the situation worse simply because Russia is so powerful: by sanctioning it, you drive a wedge further between Putin and the west. If any cooperation is to be had between the world's powers, this sort of gunslinger attitude must be abandoned. Putin has spent decades cultivating his strong-man persona. He is popular because the voters see him as the man to stand up for Russian interests against a hostile west; he will not back down if he feels that Russians in Crimea will be at risk.

This situation reminds me of an earlier incident  with Obama and Syria. Obama had promised not to get involved militarily with Syria unless the government actually used chemical weapons against its people. Obviously he was banking on Assad not being that stupid, so in this way he could appear strong and decisive while not actually engaging the US in a massively unpopular and draining conflict. Of course, a year later, it came out that Assad's forces had in all likelyhood used chemical weapons against the populace, and Obama was in a nasty spot. If he took the US into Syria, he would be crucified in the polls and lose most of his support. If he backed out, he would look weak in front of the world. At this point, Putin stepped in and "saved the day", so to speak. He sat the various factions down and worked out an agreement that the US would hold off on invading Syria if Syria allowed UN weapons inspectors in. Obama maintained his dignity, Syria was put in its place (sort of). Everyone was a winner. Well, except the Syrian people; their lives still suck.

The point is that this is a perfect opportunity for Obama to reciprocate. He, or a US-led UN coalition can act as an intermediary between Russia and the new Ukraine government and work something out. Once Ukraine has stabilized a little, I'm sure Putin can be persuaded to pull out Russian forces in exchange for a guarantee of stability. Whether or not a referendum on independence should be held is questionable, but hey, both the Ukrainian protesters and the west have been claiming to be on the side of democracy (even though Yanukovich was elected democratically). Independence would probably pass, but it would also probably further destabalize the region. Either way, this is the sort of conflict you resolve by being mature and sensible, not making angry rants like what John Kerry has done.
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03-04-14 08:57 AM
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Brigand :
There almost certainly wont be any war.
Economic embargo's, maybe. But from the USA, not the EU. Europe is sadly dependent on certain Russian resources.
Whether Ukraine and Russia take a couple of potshots at each other though, remains to be seen.
Its pretty treacherous though, to invade through a territory you were given permission to operate in?I don't think many nations will be trustful of Russian bases in their country's any more. It was a stupid maneuver.
Unlike in Georgia, it seems Ukraine isn't stupid enough to fight back either. When Georgia did that, the Russians rolled the tanks in.
Brigand :
There almost certainly wont be any war.
Economic embargo's, maybe. But from the USA, not the EU. Europe is sadly dependent on certain Russian resources.
Whether Ukraine and Russia take a couple of potshots at each other though, remains to be seen.
Its pretty treacherous though, to invade through a territory you were given permission to operate in?I don't think many nations will be trustful of Russian bases in their country's any more. It was a stupid maneuver.
Unlike in Georgia, it seems Ukraine isn't stupid enough to fight back either. When Georgia did that, the Russians rolled the tanks in.
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03-06-14 12:43 AM
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Some people wants to push a war with Russia and others don't want to go into a war with Russia with everything going on, also remember, for like around 45 years, both the United States and Russia did not like each other and was in a major conflict for that long, which we all know as the "Cold War" and also, Ukraine and Russia was part of the bigger Soviet Union back in those days so that's mostly to my point of view why Putin wanted Ukraine because I think with the old connection that the former countries that used to be a part of the USSR.

I think to my point of view is why both the United States and Russia are having issues with one another regarding Ukraine, because both Russia and Ukraine are former Soviet countries.
Some people wants to push a war with Russia and others don't want to go into a war with Russia with everything going on, also remember, for like around 45 years, both the United States and Russia did not like each other and was in a major conflict for that long, which we all know as the "Cold War" and also, Ukraine and Russia was part of the bigger Soviet Union back in those days so that's mostly to my point of view why Putin wanted Ukraine because I think with the old connection that the former countries that used to be a part of the USSR.

I think to my point of view is why both the United States and Russia are having issues with one another regarding Ukraine, because both Russia and Ukraine are former Soviet countries.
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(edited by IgorBird122 on 03-06-14 12:38 PM)    

03-06-14 11:52 AM
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thenumberone :

Lets see. The embargo could be a disaster to EU also since there is so much commerce invested back and forth with Russia. For the US it is only few percent of their export but for us here it is almost half... So no wonder there is this "whoa... lets not be too hasty with all this stuff"- attitude there is. And it is not like the next elections were supposed to be about do we even have money to keep this beautiful dream of France and Germany not killing each other afloat, since there are countries going bankrupt already... And now we have togive money to Ukraine too, even if they are not a member.

But Putin is a sly dog. You have to be if you are former KGB. I bet he counted on this. But the whole thing is so messy and some news are so hysterical it is so hard to put things in any kind of perspective to say anything too profound. But I doubt there will be any war. EU will for sure do nothing. US might give some embargo thing going but that wont really matter. Since to really enforce it we would also need some injection to cover our losses. And those would be huge.

I also think it is weird that there are Yankees who think this was about them and Russians who think all this started with America. When it originally was about should there be a pro-EU stance government or not there. And about gas prices. And everyday corruption. Who knows anymore?
thenumberone :

Lets see. The embargo could be a disaster to EU also since there is so much commerce invested back and forth with Russia. For the US it is only few percent of their export but for us here it is almost half... So no wonder there is this "whoa... lets not be too hasty with all this stuff"- attitude there is. And it is not like the next elections were supposed to be about do we even have money to keep this beautiful dream of France and Germany not killing each other afloat, since there are countries going bankrupt already... And now we have togive money to Ukraine too, even if they are not a member.

But Putin is a sly dog. You have to be if you are former KGB. I bet he counted on this. But the whole thing is so messy and some news are so hysterical it is so hard to put things in any kind of perspective to say anything too profound. But I doubt there will be any war. EU will for sure do nothing. US might give some embargo thing going but that wont really matter. Since to really enforce it we would also need some injection to cover our losses. And those would be huge.

I also think it is weird that there are Yankees who think this was about them and Russians who think all this started with America. When it originally was about should there be a pro-EU stance government or not there. And about gas prices. And everyday corruption. Who knows anymore?
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03-07-14 08:20 AM
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Brigand :
What I find most interesting about Russia are the double standards.
On the same day they criticised Ukraine for staging a coup, being undemocratic, and sending in their troops to take over the Crimean parliament, they were arresting activists in Russia protesting at Russia interfering.

And now they support a referendum on Crimea joining Russia. Whilst I support self determination im not convinced its fair since Russia deported the native inhabitants of Crimea in order for Russians to be a majority (the same as they did in konisburgh/kalingrad and kuril islands).
The most interesting point of the referendum is the statement they made though:

"Without a doubt, the Crimean parliament, as a legitimate authority, has that right... the sovereign right of the people to determine their future"

It makes me wonder when exactly, Russia will allow it separatist regions to hold a vote on independence? Since the local parliaments apparently have that sovereign right.
Chechyna, dagestan, Ingushetia, Tartarstan,Udmurtia, Chuvashia,Mari el, Mordovia, Bashkortost, Komi, Karelia, kaylmykia, Ingria.
http://www.fairobserver.com/360theme/russia-separatist-movements

I pity them if they vote to join, because they sure as hell wont be allowed to leave again.
They'd be better off independent if they don't want to be part of Ukraine.
Id be interested to see what happens if they vote yes though, since Moscow signed an agreement to protect the territorial integrity of Ukraine, if they formally take territory for them its a clear breach of the agreement.

I pity Eastern Europe. So much poverty, so much corruption, and to top it all off there's a medieval level of interference going on between states.

IgorBird122 :
"I think to my point of view is why both the United States and Russia are having issues with one another regarding Ukraine, because both Russia and Ukraine are former Soviet countries."
I think its a sideline from the major issues, which is Ukranian. They had a crisis, they should have been allowed to resolve it. Both sides were constantly steping up the rhetoric and now Russia have realised they've lost and they have little to lose by just seizing what land they can.
Brigand :
What I find most interesting about Russia are the double standards.
On the same day they criticised Ukraine for staging a coup, being undemocratic, and sending in their troops to take over the Crimean parliament, they were arresting activists in Russia protesting at Russia interfering.

And now they support a referendum on Crimea joining Russia. Whilst I support self determination im not convinced its fair since Russia deported the native inhabitants of Crimea in order for Russians to be a majority (the same as they did in konisburgh/kalingrad and kuril islands).
The most interesting point of the referendum is the statement they made though:

"Without a doubt, the Crimean parliament, as a legitimate authority, has that right... the sovereign right of the people to determine their future"

It makes me wonder when exactly, Russia will allow it separatist regions to hold a vote on independence? Since the local parliaments apparently have that sovereign right.
Chechyna, dagestan, Ingushetia, Tartarstan,Udmurtia, Chuvashia,Mari el, Mordovia, Bashkortost, Komi, Karelia, kaylmykia, Ingria.
http://www.fairobserver.com/360theme/russia-separatist-movements

I pity them if they vote to join, because they sure as hell wont be allowed to leave again.
They'd be better off independent if they don't want to be part of Ukraine.
Id be interested to see what happens if they vote yes though, since Moscow signed an agreement to protect the territorial integrity of Ukraine, if they formally take territory for them its a clear breach of the agreement.

I pity Eastern Europe. So much poverty, so much corruption, and to top it all off there's a medieval level of interference going on between states.

IgorBird122 :
"I think to my point of view is why both the United States and Russia are having issues with one another regarding Ukraine, because both Russia and Ukraine are former Soviet countries."
I think its a sideline from the major issues, which is Ukranian. They had a crisis, they should have been allowed to resolve it. Both sides were constantly steping up the rhetoric and now Russia have realised they've lost and they have little to lose by just seizing what land they can.
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(edited by thenumberone on 03-07-14 08:23 AM)     Post Rating: 1   Liked By: Brigand,

03-07-14 11:05 AM
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thenumberone : Democracy is clearly overrated. Apparently everyone has forgotten that Yanukovich was elected democratically, or as democratically as Ukraine can get. The latest trend in international politics is to support "democracy and the people of Ukraine", but if the people of Ukraine wanted to be democratic, they should have used existing legal channels (ie: an election) to vote Yanukovich out.

It makes a great deal of sense for Putin to snag Crimea. It's an area with immense strategic importance, especially to a country like Russia that is always interested in a warm water port. The ethnic classes in Crimea are a good enough reason to send in troops. Not fair? That's how the world works. Like it or not, Crimea has a majority Russian population. They are going to at the very least want independence.

Heck, if you want double standards, just look at the irony of countries like the US, UK, and Canada trying to criticize Russia. Invading and occupying other countries is exactly what they've been doing for the majority of the 21st century (Afghanistan and Iraq). It's the prerogative of powerful nations to invade less powerful nations to further their own interests. What Russia is doing is not unique or suprising, and given the instability of Ukraine, it may well have saved lives. The new Ukrainian government hasn't established order yet; whether or not it even has a mandate is questionable.
thenumberone : Democracy is clearly overrated. Apparently everyone has forgotten that Yanukovich was elected democratically, or as democratically as Ukraine can get. The latest trend in international politics is to support "democracy and the people of Ukraine", but if the people of Ukraine wanted to be democratic, they should have used existing legal channels (ie: an election) to vote Yanukovich out.

It makes a great deal of sense for Putin to snag Crimea. It's an area with immense strategic importance, especially to a country like Russia that is always interested in a warm water port. The ethnic classes in Crimea are a good enough reason to send in troops. Not fair? That's how the world works. Like it or not, Crimea has a majority Russian population. They are going to at the very least want independence.

Heck, if you want double standards, just look at the irony of countries like the US, UK, and Canada trying to criticize Russia. Invading and occupying other countries is exactly what they've been doing for the majority of the 21st century (Afghanistan and Iraq). It's the prerogative of powerful nations to invade less powerful nations to further their own interests. What Russia is doing is not unique or suprising, and given the instability of Ukraine, it may well have saved lives. The new Ukrainian government hasn't established order yet; whether or not it even has a mandate is questionable.
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03-07-14 03:14 PM
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Traduweise :
People have the right to peacefull protest, and it was peaceful to begin with. Those in power could have just let them be and everyone would have probably remained calm. As soon as they started cracking down on them they lost any legitimacy.
I never said Crimea didn't have tactical value, although i would point out Russia has a warm water port so this would be the 2nd.
How are the ethnic classes good enough reason to send the troops in? No country should be putting boots into Ukraine. Not Russia, not the USA. You say they are going to want independence but you also said Ukraine wouldn't manage to oust Yanukovich, and the protestors would give up.
Whilst 70% of the population are ethnically Russian, not all of them feel Russian. A very large chunk of them feel Crimean above Russian or Ukrainian.
But while Russia is in control of the parliament and the infrastructure no vote can be considered fair. if they want a vote they are certainly entitled to one, but everyone should pull back there troops, and there should be international observers to view it.
So you are arguing that because other country's have done wrong, its ok for Russia to do so? To say that is a weak argument is to commit a major understatement.
As for saving lives, doubtful. What they have done is escalate national tensions at a time when Ukraine was vulnerable, and entice more people, both Ukrainian and otherwise, to become even more aggressive.
No one is saying that the current Ukrainian parliament is a legitimate voice of the people. Thats why there are elections and presidential elections being prepared. For any nation to act before that was pre-emptive and destabilising.
Traduweise :
People have the right to peacefull protest, and it was peaceful to begin with. Those in power could have just let them be and everyone would have probably remained calm. As soon as they started cracking down on them they lost any legitimacy.
I never said Crimea didn't have tactical value, although i would point out Russia has a warm water port so this would be the 2nd.
How are the ethnic classes good enough reason to send the troops in? No country should be putting boots into Ukraine. Not Russia, not the USA. You say they are going to want independence but you also said Ukraine wouldn't manage to oust Yanukovich, and the protestors would give up.
Whilst 70% of the population are ethnically Russian, not all of them feel Russian. A very large chunk of them feel Crimean above Russian or Ukrainian.
But while Russia is in control of the parliament and the infrastructure no vote can be considered fair. if they want a vote they are certainly entitled to one, but everyone should pull back there troops, and there should be international observers to view it.
So you are arguing that because other country's have done wrong, its ok for Russia to do so? To say that is a weak argument is to commit a major understatement.
As for saving lives, doubtful. What they have done is escalate national tensions at a time when Ukraine was vulnerable, and entice more people, both Ukrainian and otherwise, to become even more aggressive.
No one is saying that the current Ukrainian parliament is a legitimate voice of the people. Thats why there are elections and presidential elections being prepared. For any nation to act before that was pre-emptive and destabilising.
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03-07-14 04:29 PM
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Whether or not people have the right to peaceful protest, they do not have the right to violent protest, and storming the parliament building to force parliamentarians into deposing the president is certainly not a right guaranteed in any recognised charter. Trying to paint the protesters as the peaceful faction is even more misguided than painting Yanukovich as the peaceful one. And trying to point blame on one side, or on who "started it" is silly and pointless. It was a violent affair because neither side wanted to back down. I didn't think the protesters would go as far as they did, but hey, I doubt Yanukovich did either.

Ethnic classes flared up in Crimea because much of the Russian portion wanted independence, and minority groups did not. Whether or not it was morally right for Russia to send in troops is not relevant. They did, and Crimea is probably the most stable part of Ukraine now, outside tiny rural communities. Just look at the streets of Kiev. It's anarchy. If a referendum were put up in Crimea on independence, it would most likely pass at this time, regardless of Russian interference.

And no, nowhere did I say it is "ok" for Russia to do "wrong" (whatever that means) just because other countries have. I don't understand how you would come to such a conclusion. It is a part of the system we live in that stronger countries will bully smaller countries. Hypocrisy is apparent all over the world, not just in Russia.
Whether or not people have the right to peaceful protest, they do not have the right to violent protest, and storming the parliament building to force parliamentarians into deposing the president is certainly not a right guaranteed in any recognised charter. Trying to paint the protesters as the peaceful faction is even more misguided than painting Yanukovich as the peaceful one. And trying to point blame on one side, or on who "started it" is silly and pointless. It was a violent affair because neither side wanted to back down. I didn't think the protesters would go as far as they did, but hey, I doubt Yanukovich did either.

Ethnic classes flared up in Crimea because much of the Russian portion wanted independence, and minority groups did not. Whether or not it was morally right for Russia to send in troops is not relevant. They did, and Crimea is probably the most stable part of Ukraine now, outside tiny rural communities. Just look at the streets of Kiev. It's anarchy. If a referendum were put up in Crimea on independence, it would most likely pass at this time, regardless of Russian interference.

And no, nowhere did I say it is "ok" for Russia to do "wrong" (whatever that means) just because other countries have. I don't understand how you would come to such a conclusion. It is a part of the system we live in that stronger countries will bully smaller countries. Hypocrisy is apparent all over the world, not just in Russia.
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Technically no, no western countries truly have good cause to fight Russia over Ukraine. However, Ukraine wanted to break away from Russia for a reason, they didn't break away from Russia and the USSR simply to re-join them less than a few decades later. Although Crimea may have a significantly larger Russian population than the rest of Ukraine, it really shouldn't speak for the whole of the country when deciding to be absorbed by Russia. Besides, everybody should really just leave well enough alone, Russia has enough territory and the western powers don't need any more wars. If everyone would just leave the Ukrainians to their own metal, we wouldn't be having any issues right now, and everyone could just go about their days as usual. 
Technically no, no western countries truly have good cause to fight Russia over Ukraine. However, Ukraine wanted to break away from Russia for a reason, they didn't break away from Russia and the USSR simply to re-join them less than a few decades later. Although Crimea may have a significantly larger Russian population than the rest of Ukraine, it really shouldn't speak for the whole of the country when deciding to be absorbed by Russia. Besides, everybody should really just leave well enough alone, Russia has enough territory and the western powers don't need any more wars. If everyone would just leave the Ukrainians to their own metal, we wouldn't be having any issues right now, and everyone could just go about their days as usual. 
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Traduweise :
At what point did they storm the parliament? The parliament choose to dissolve itself.
But since you think its wrong Its worth noting that Russia put troops in crimeas parliament immediately before they started turning against Ukraine. A coincidence I'm sure. Though I'm glad you agree it was wrong.
There are peaceful and violent protesters. And the violent ones came to the front when the government tried to remove all the protestors.
Time and again they promised not to touch the protest camps yet repeatedly they then tried to.

Most stable? Tell Me. If your country had just had a major political upheaval and a bunch of foreign troops rolled into your town, would you be happy? There's 2 army's facing off and racial groups squaring up. Id say that's pretty unstable.
Incidentally Russia denies they even have troops in Ukraine. Why might they do that?
Anarchy? There are troops and civilians guarding almost everything. As for the article it even acknowledges the numbers are small.
Of course it's nothing compared to stable crimea.
http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26492053
Oh pro Russian group brutally beat photographers. Fair enough.
As for your certainty of the vote passing:
http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26486289
Doubtful.
Hypocrisy May be endemic but your acceptance of it is perplexing. I wonder if you would be so complacent if you were in their position.
Traduweise :
At what point did they storm the parliament? The parliament choose to dissolve itself.
But since you think its wrong Its worth noting that Russia put troops in crimeas parliament immediately before they started turning against Ukraine. A coincidence I'm sure. Though I'm glad you agree it was wrong.
There are peaceful and violent protesters. And the violent ones came to the front when the government tried to remove all the protestors.
Time and again they promised not to touch the protest camps yet repeatedly they then tried to.

Most stable? Tell Me. If your country had just had a major political upheaval and a bunch of foreign troops rolled into your town, would you be happy? There's 2 army's facing off and racial groups squaring up. Id say that's pretty unstable.
Incidentally Russia denies they even have troops in Ukraine. Why might they do that?
Anarchy? There are troops and civilians guarding almost everything. As for the article it even acknowledges the numbers are small.
Of course it's nothing compared to stable crimea.
http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26492053
Oh pro Russian group brutally beat photographers. Fair enough.
As for your certainty of the vote passing:
http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26486289
Doubtful.
Hypocrisy May be endemic but your acceptance of it is perplexing. I wonder if you would be so complacent if you were in their position.
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My opinion on this: We should stay out of it. It is not our business. We always need to get involved when we shouldn't. I would rather have Russia take over Ukraine than have World War III.

If you reply to this, I will most likely ignore it because I don't really want to get into a debated about this. I just wanted to get my opinion out there.
My opinion on this: We should stay out of it. It is not our business. We always need to get involved when we shouldn't. I would rather have Russia take over Ukraine than have World War III.

If you reply to this, I will most likely ignore it because I don't really want to get into a debated about this. I just wanted to get my opinion out there.
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03-07-14 09:07 PM
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thenumberone :

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177729#.UxqFvYXvjmk
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-crimea-parliament-stormed/25278009.html

Yeah, the parliament just chose to dissolve itself and depose Yanukovich. It had nothing at all to do with the angry mob protesters. In such a tense situation, violence was inevitable. Trying to blame one side is nonsensical. The protesters are every bit as guilty for the damage and deaths as are government forces.

So 79 out of 81 MP's in Crimea support a move to leave Ukraine (by your own link), but you're sceptical because Ukraine's new prime minister disagrees? Although I guess he is an authority on seizing power by force.

Oh, and if you think two journalists getting beaten up is a sign of instability, Kiev is an all-out warzone. This has nothing to do with being happy. I'll take Russian forces imposing curfews and order over Neo-NAZI gangs running the streets, thank you very much.
thenumberone :

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177729#.UxqFvYXvjmk
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-crimea-parliament-stormed/25278009.html

Yeah, the parliament just chose to dissolve itself and depose Yanukovich. It had nothing at all to do with the angry mob protesters. In such a tense situation, violence was inevitable. Trying to blame one side is nonsensical. The protesters are every bit as guilty for the damage and deaths as are government forces.

So 79 out of 81 MP's in Crimea support a move to leave Ukraine (by your own link), but you're sceptical because Ukraine's new prime minister disagrees? Although I guess he is an authority on seizing power by force.

Oh, and if you think two journalists getting beaten up is a sign of instability, Kiev is an all-out warzone. This has nothing to do with being happy. I'll take Russian forces imposing curfews and order over Neo-NAZI gangs running the streets, thank you very much.
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I never said they did it out of the goodness of their hearts, but the parliament wasnt stormed as you incorrectly stated.
The crimes parliament has also been stormed by pro Russians. So much for Crimean stability.
As for storming the palace, the guards left after the president tucked tail and ran. And The protestors never entered it. They posted a guard to prevent any looting.
Later they conducted tours for the media. But storming? No.

Evidently you didn't read the article. It discusses the people's view? Since they have to vote on it? And you're so sure they will vote Yes.
Those figures are from the clashes between the old government and the protestors... they arent still dying. I think if you stopped skimming and actually read the articles fully you would be able to build a stronger argument.
I never said they did it out of the goodness of their hearts, but the parliament wasnt stormed as you incorrectly stated.
The crimes parliament has also been stormed by pro Russians. So much for Crimean stability.
As for storming the palace, the guards left after the president tucked tail and ran. And The protestors never entered it. They posted a guard to prevent any looting.
Later they conducted tours for the media. But storming? No.

Evidently you didn't read the article. It discusses the people's view? Since they have to vote on it? And you're so sure they will vote Yes.
Those figures are from the clashes between the old government and the protestors... they arent still dying. I think if you stopped skimming and actually read the articles fully you would be able to build a stronger argument.
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03-07-14 10:13 PM
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thenumberone : The parliament was stormed. That's literally the headline of the article I gave you. It doesn't mean they ran in with guns. Parliamentarians voted to throw out Yanukovich because they could see which way the wind was blowing. The first sentence in the other article reads "SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine -- Anti-Russian protesters have stormed the parliament building in Ukraine's autonomous Crimea republic. " Tensions between pro and anti Russian protesters were erupting. Now that Russian troops are there, it's quieted down. I wonder why.

Oh, and people are still dying. Check the dates on last article. Kiev is not a safe place to be.

EDIT: I actually did mispeak in a previous post when I implied protesters storming the parliament caused the parliamentarians to oust Yanukovich. As I corrected in this post, the parliamentarians threw him out before the protesters could lump them in with him.
thenumberone : The parliament was stormed. That's literally the headline of the article I gave you. It doesn't mean they ran in with guns. Parliamentarians voted to throw out Yanukovich because they could see which way the wind was blowing. The first sentence in the other article reads "SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine -- Anti-Russian protesters have stormed the parliament building in Ukraine's autonomous Crimea republic. " Tensions between pro and anti Russian protesters were erupting. Now that Russian troops are there, it's quieted down. I wonder why.

Oh, and people are still dying. Check the dates on last article. Kiev is not a safe place to be.

EDIT: I actually did mispeak in a previous post when I implied protesters storming the parliament caused the parliamentarians to oust Yanukovich. As I corrected in this post, the parliamentarians threw him out before the protesters could lump them in with him.
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(edited by Traduweise on 03-07-14 10:15 PM)    

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