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2013/14 MLB Hall of Fame Discussion Thread
I would have posted it in the offseason thread, but I have the last post.
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2013/14 MLB Hall of Fame Discussion Thread

 

01-05-14 07:42 PM
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So, the 2013/4 Hall of Fame Ballot is up, and as we speak, more and more ballots are being made known to the public. They will announce who makes the Hall on January 8th, and induct them later this year (In July I think, near the ASB).

Here are the rules for inductment.

1. A player needs to be listed on 75% of the professional ballots to make the Hall of Fame.
2. A player who gets listed on less than 5% of the professional ballots will be removed from future consideration from the Hall of Fame, via the balloting process.
3. Each professional ballot may contain anywhere from zero to ten players on the ballot.
4. To get a ballot, you must be either an active, or honored member of the Baseball Writers Association of America, and been a sports writer for at least 10 years.
5. To be eligible to be voted into the hall of fame, a player must have been retired for 5 years, and not be on the BBWAA's ineligible list. They must also maintain at least a 5% inclusion rate on all ballots, and have been on the ballots for less than 15 years. If a player fails to get in on their 15th try, they will be removed from the ballot.

Now that we've refreshed this... this year's class is rather special. It's so loaded, that I actually had trouble filling out my unofficial ballot (I do not qualify for a real ballot, but I always have an unofficial one).

Here are a list of the candidates, along with what year this is for them on the ballot.
Moisés Alou - 1st
Jeff Bagwell - 4th
Armando Benítez - 1st
Craig Biggio - 2nd
Barry Bonds - 2nd
Sean Casey - 1st
Roger Clemens - 2nd
Ray Durham - 1st
Éric Gagné - 1st
Tom Glavine - 1st
Luis Gonzalez - 1st
Jacque Jones - 1st
Todd Jones - 1st
Jeff Kent - 1st
Paul Lo Duca - 1st
Greg Maddux - 1st
Edgar Martínez - 5th
Don Mattingly - 14th
Fred McGriff - 5th
Mark McGwire - 8th
Jack Morris - 15th
Mike Mussina - 1st
Hideo Nomo - 1st
Rafael Palmeiro - 4th
Mike Piazza - 2nd
Tim Raines - 7th
Kenny Rogers - 1st
Curt Schilling - 2nd
Richie Sexson - 1st
Lee Smith - 12th
J. T. Snow - 1st
Sammy Sosa - 2nd
Frank Thomas - 1st
Mike Timlin - 1st
Alan Trammell - 13th
Larry Walker - 4th

Also, eligible as a write in option (as they are not listed as high caliber players like those above, and would be unlikely to stick on the ballot if included) are Tony Armas Jr., Gary Bennett, Joe Borowski, Jose Cruz Jr., Mike DiFelice, Damion Easley, Scott Elarton, Shawn Estes, Sal Fasano, Keith Foulke, Scott Hatteberg, Geoff Jenkins, Jason Johnson, Ray King, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza, Kent Mercker, Matt Morris, Trot Nixon, Abraham Nunez, Odalis Perez, Tomas Perez, Mark Redman, Alberto Reyes, Ricardo Rincon, Dave Roberts, Rudy Seanez, Shannon Stewart, Tanyon Sturtze, Mark Sweeney, Salomon Torres, Steve Trachsel, Javier Valentin, Jose Vidro, Daryle Ward, and Dmitri Young.

Now that the boring bit is out of the way, I'm going to list my ballot, and my reasoning for each pick. If I can choose names, I can also explain myself. So the names below are my picks, in order.

1. Greg Maddux - This is one of four no doubters for me, and the name I expect to get into the hall most of any player this election cycle. (The other three being Biggio, Piazza, and Glavine). To understand just how good Maddux was, we have to look at not just his superb stats. But first, let me remind you of those. 355 wins (he pitched 23 years, average of 15+ a season), 3.16 ERA (which is astonishingly low in the modern era), 5008.1 innings, 3371 strikeouts, a 132 ERA+ (ERA+ is essentially league and park adjusted ERA. A score of 100 is average, a score of 132 is awesome. In fact, it's tied for the 29th best mark throughout a career ever. Last year, Chris Sale had about a 140 ERA+, only marginally better. And he was the 7th best pitcher in the league.) The point I am making here, is that Maddux was consistently one of the top 10 pitchers in the league, in most every year of his career. You don't get much better than that. And then, what pushes it over the top. Look at the era he played in. The Steroid Era. Greg Maddux deserves to be on everyone's ballot.

2. Craig Biggio - I was shocked when Biggio didn't make the hall last year. He, like Maddux has always been consistently one of the better, and most underrated players in the history of the game. He played every position under the sun, and he played them well. He was a .281/.363/.433 hitter life-time, throughout his career. He stole over 400 bases, hit nearly 300 homeruns, was hit by about 300 pitches throughout his career (leading the league in that odd stat 5 times). He was a 7 time all star, but even that may have been too little, once you look at WAR (Wins above Replacement, generally seen as the basest sabre-stat. Essentially, you want a high number here. Zero means average, replacement level, 0-2 means sub level player, 2-4 means starting level talent, 5-7 means All Star, 8+ means MVP level. Craig Biggio had 9 seasons above 4 WAR. Including those, he had 14 seasons above 2 WAR. To be a starting level player for 14 seasons is an impressive feat, if not one people will pay attention to. There's something to be said for being one of the most reliable players in the league. Oh, and most of those seasons? He was the 2nd baseman. A position where there isn't much offensive firepower. The rest of the majority of his career? He was also a catcher. Another position with very little offense. Biggio is one of the best catchers in league history, despite only playing 5 years there, and one of the best 2nd baseman in league history over his 15 years at the position. But there's one more thing that should be noted. He's easily the best to play both positions for any stretch of time.

3. Mike Piazza - Mike Piazza may be relatively unknown compared to the rest of the players on this ballot. And that confuses me, because Piazza may end up being one of the best values of all these players. Piazza was a 62nd round draft pick in 1988. Try to name anyone else drafted anywhere close to as late as him. It's tough. So begins the story of Mike Piazza, who was always overshadowed, playing most of his career with the Mets, in a city that belongs to the Yankees. I said a lot of nice things about Biggio and his .281/.363/.433 line. Well, Piazza's was .308/.377/.545. And keep in mind Piazza was a catcher. He might well be the best offensive catcher in MLB history. He also has 427 career home runs, and an impressive career rating of 143 OPS+. (Just like ERA+, it's league and park adjusted. 100 is average, 140+ is phenominal). And while we're comparing Biggio and Piazza... let's look at Piazza's WAR. 8 seasons above 4, and 12 above 2. Not as "great" as Biggio all around (WAR accounts for defense as well, which Piazza will never be known for) but a superior player offensively. Best 62nd round draft pick in MLB history.

4. Tom Glavine - Glavine may be less of a no doubter than the others, but he's still a guy I think deserves a hall induction. He'll be better known for being the 2nd fiddle to Greg Maddux for a good portion of his career. Maybe even a 2nd fiddle to Tim Hudson as well. Point is, he was never THE guy. He was always the league's best #2/3 starter. His stats aren't as sexy. 305 wins, "only" a 3.54 career ERA... and only 56 career complete games. Only. That may not seem like much when you compare it to the career leaders from the early days of the MLB, but when compared against other modern players, very very few come as close. In fact, the "active" leader in complete games (to qualify one must be an active member of the MLB, and pitch a complete game) is CC Sabathia, with 37. Point is, in today's MLB, there's an emphasis on the bullpen, and for good reason. Complete games have a tendency to tire out a pitcher's arm over his career. Toward the tail end of his career (late 30s, when all those cumulative pitches must have killed his arm) he was awful in comparison to his once "no doubt" hall of fame career. Had the Braves not pitched him so late in so many games, he may have been able to have more seasons of sub 3.30 ERAs. Instead, he went above 4 thrice, and was near it twice more. Ignoring those years (which he shouldn't have been active for), Glavine is one of the most consistently above average pitchers of his generation. The fact he managed to pitch 30+ games a year 17 years of his 22 year career shows his durability and longevity. His is a career worth celebrating.

5. Frank Thomas - He'll always stand out to me as one of the strongest men I've ever seen on a baseball diamond. He has his nickname, "The Big Hurt" for a reason. Whenever he hits the ball, you could literally feel its pain. But ignoring just eye reactions, let's look at this on a more objective, stat based level. He never led the league in homeruns, but managed to compile a total of 521 career homeruns (tied for 18th all time). He also compiled 1704 RBIs, which stands as the 22nd best mark in history. But what really does it for me, is just how good of a pure hitter he was. Had he been aiming for a home run every time out, he could have well gone beyond 600. But no, he was a baseball player. He compiled a .301/.419/.555 average. He got on base 42% of the time he came up to the plate. 1667/1397. That's his walks/k ratio. Most power players have far more k's than walks as a result of swinging for the fences. Not the Big Hurt. He played the game the right way. His career OBP is 20th all time. The only "power" players above him on the OBP list are Babe Ruth (the single greatest hitter of all time), Barry Bonds (who most pitchers feared because of his roiding ways), and Jimmie Foxx and Mickey Mantle. That's elite company. Frank Thomas was the best pure hitter of his generation, and the hall features the best of the best. Should be obvious.

6. Roger Clemens - The hall of fame is not only a place for saints. It also houses its share of villains. Roger Clemens, who was a fantastic pitcher, is probably more known currently for his McNamee saga. But, if being an ass, who does bad things was grounds for expulsion from the hall, Ty Cobb wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame (seriously, google some of the crap he did. It was a different time, but still). Getting that out of the way, Clemens deserves to join the hall for his playing career, regardless of post career antics. 354 career wins (9th all time), 3.12 career ERA, nearly 5000 innings pitched... is this sounding familiar? It should, because it's rather close to the line of one Greg Maddux, who I've already established belongs. In fact, as far as ability goes, Clemens was BETTER than Maddux. Add in his 4672 career strikeouts (3rd all time!), and his 143 career ERA+, and you have one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball history, on an ability standpoint (keep in mind he played in the steroid era). He "may" have done steroids himself. May. It hasn't been proven yet, and even if it is, I won't change my case for him being in the hall. One more fun stat to look at. Remember WAR? Well WAR scores Clemens as an almost unprecedented act. 10 seasons of 7+ WAR (which remember, is the criteria for a near MVP level player). 14 times he broke 5 WAR (all star level). Only three times in his career was he below 2 WAR. One season was his rookie year, another was in the middle. And the last was at the end of his career, at the age of 44, pitching in the AL East. Like him or not, he has the talent, and belongs.

7. Barry Bonds - Same case I made with Clemens needs to be made here. The hall isn't just about stats. It's also a place where the history of the MLB is chronicled for posterity. The Steroid Era happened. There is no denying this. The sooner voters admit this, the sooner we get these legends where they belong. I shouldn't have to make a case for Bonds as a player. He holds three career records. Walks (2558), Intentional Walks (688), and obviously, the one most people know about, home runs (762). Career line of .298/.444/.607. Among qualifying players, his OBP is 6th, and his SLG is 5th, all time. He struck out only HALF as often as he walked. For most players it is the other way around. Perhaps most impressive though, is the fact he owns the single season and career home run record, despite only leading the league in the stat twice. He had a WAR above 10 three separate times. MVP four years in a row, during his mid-late 30s. Oh, and an OPS+ of 182. He may have juiced, and therefor cheated. But that was the Era. And the hall needs to acknowledge this dark part of their history.

8. Edgar Martinez - Now begins the hard part of the ballot. The first four were no doubters. The next three were guys that would be considered for the first ballot any other year in a fair world. These next three are just personal opinion guys. Guys who probably won't make the hall at any point because of the stubborness and "old fashioned" ways of the BBWAA. The first of these, is the one that I feel most strongly about. Edgar Martinez, who I maintain is the 2nd greatest DH in the history of the major leagues (the first, for the record, is David Ortiz). .312/.418/.515. That's his career line. Compare it to that of Frank Thomas. It's not "that" much different. Career OPS+ of 147, which is tied for 41st all time. He also hit 300 homeruns... even though he played half his games in the spacious Mariners stadium. He's one of the best pure hitters in the history of the game. And it's stupid, but the BBWAA will keep him out just because he didn't play defense.

9. Curt Schilling - Curt Schilling is one of those guys that I have less stats to back up, even though he had a very solid career. What stands out most to me is what he did in 2004 for the Red Sox. The bloody sock incident. So, it should be obvious, that as a Red Sox fan, I'm being a "tad" biased selecting him with my 9th pick in a star studded year. He only had 216 wins (not too impressive), he only pitched 83 complete games (which again, like Glavine, looks smaller than it is), and only had an ERA+ of 127. (Glavine's is 118). Looking at the stats, you could use this as an argument against Glavine making the hall. However, I fully believe he belongs. He and Schilling. So what's going to make this case solid? His strikeout totals. 3116 strikeouts in his career. Which is good for 15th all time. You don't get that many Ks if you aren't a very good elite pitcher. So even if we don't count his post-season glory, I think this is a solid case.

10. Mark McGwire - This one, admittedly, is the weakest case of all my choices. He admitted to doing steroids, which while speaking highly of his character (I prefer when athletes come clean) speaks lowly of his actual talent. Where does the talent end and the juice begin? Just how good was Mark McGwire? .263/.394/.588. This line isn't terribly impressive. In fact, his low batting average scares me, and makes me want to strike his case from my ballot. But he hit 583 home runs, and was a big part of the steroid era, like Barry Bonds. He had a career OPS+ of 163, which is fantastic, and played over half his career in Oakland, which is notorious for having far back fences. I guess it's another one of those cases of the hall being a chronicle of baseball's history. McGwire is part of MLB's illustrious history, even during a dark chapter.

So, if anyone else wants to chime in, go right ahead, I'm curious to see who everyone else would vote for.
So, the 2013/4 Hall of Fame Ballot is up, and as we speak, more and more ballots are being made known to the public. They will announce who makes the Hall on January 8th, and induct them later this year (In July I think, near the ASB).

Here are the rules for inductment.

1. A player needs to be listed on 75% of the professional ballots to make the Hall of Fame.
2. A player who gets listed on less than 5% of the professional ballots will be removed from future consideration from the Hall of Fame, via the balloting process.
3. Each professional ballot may contain anywhere from zero to ten players on the ballot.
4. To get a ballot, you must be either an active, or honored member of the Baseball Writers Association of America, and been a sports writer for at least 10 years.
5. To be eligible to be voted into the hall of fame, a player must have been retired for 5 years, and not be on the BBWAA's ineligible list. They must also maintain at least a 5% inclusion rate on all ballots, and have been on the ballots for less than 15 years. If a player fails to get in on their 15th try, they will be removed from the ballot.

Now that we've refreshed this... this year's class is rather special. It's so loaded, that I actually had trouble filling out my unofficial ballot (I do not qualify for a real ballot, but I always have an unofficial one).

Here are a list of the candidates, along with what year this is for them on the ballot.
Moisés Alou - 1st
Jeff Bagwell - 4th
Armando Benítez - 1st
Craig Biggio - 2nd
Barry Bonds - 2nd
Sean Casey - 1st
Roger Clemens - 2nd
Ray Durham - 1st
Éric Gagné - 1st
Tom Glavine - 1st
Luis Gonzalez - 1st
Jacque Jones - 1st
Todd Jones - 1st
Jeff Kent - 1st
Paul Lo Duca - 1st
Greg Maddux - 1st
Edgar Martínez - 5th
Don Mattingly - 14th
Fred McGriff - 5th
Mark McGwire - 8th
Jack Morris - 15th
Mike Mussina - 1st
Hideo Nomo - 1st
Rafael Palmeiro - 4th
Mike Piazza - 2nd
Tim Raines - 7th
Kenny Rogers - 1st
Curt Schilling - 2nd
Richie Sexson - 1st
Lee Smith - 12th
J. T. Snow - 1st
Sammy Sosa - 2nd
Frank Thomas - 1st
Mike Timlin - 1st
Alan Trammell - 13th
Larry Walker - 4th

Also, eligible as a write in option (as they are not listed as high caliber players like those above, and would be unlikely to stick on the ballot if included) are Tony Armas Jr., Gary Bennett, Joe Borowski, Jose Cruz Jr., Mike DiFelice, Damion Easley, Scott Elarton, Shawn Estes, Sal Fasano, Keith Foulke, Scott Hatteberg, Geoff Jenkins, Jason Johnson, Ray King, Jon Lieber, Esteban Loaiza, Kent Mercker, Matt Morris, Trot Nixon, Abraham Nunez, Odalis Perez, Tomas Perez, Mark Redman, Alberto Reyes, Ricardo Rincon, Dave Roberts, Rudy Seanez, Shannon Stewart, Tanyon Sturtze, Mark Sweeney, Salomon Torres, Steve Trachsel, Javier Valentin, Jose Vidro, Daryle Ward, and Dmitri Young.

Now that the boring bit is out of the way, I'm going to list my ballot, and my reasoning for each pick. If I can choose names, I can also explain myself. So the names below are my picks, in order.

1. Greg Maddux - This is one of four no doubters for me, and the name I expect to get into the hall most of any player this election cycle. (The other three being Biggio, Piazza, and Glavine). To understand just how good Maddux was, we have to look at not just his superb stats. But first, let me remind you of those. 355 wins (he pitched 23 years, average of 15+ a season), 3.16 ERA (which is astonishingly low in the modern era), 5008.1 innings, 3371 strikeouts, a 132 ERA+ (ERA+ is essentially league and park adjusted ERA. A score of 100 is average, a score of 132 is awesome. In fact, it's tied for the 29th best mark throughout a career ever. Last year, Chris Sale had about a 140 ERA+, only marginally better. And he was the 7th best pitcher in the league.) The point I am making here, is that Maddux was consistently one of the top 10 pitchers in the league, in most every year of his career. You don't get much better than that. And then, what pushes it over the top. Look at the era he played in. The Steroid Era. Greg Maddux deserves to be on everyone's ballot.

2. Craig Biggio - I was shocked when Biggio didn't make the hall last year. He, like Maddux has always been consistently one of the better, and most underrated players in the history of the game. He played every position under the sun, and he played them well. He was a .281/.363/.433 hitter life-time, throughout his career. He stole over 400 bases, hit nearly 300 homeruns, was hit by about 300 pitches throughout his career (leading the league in that odd stat 5 times). He was a 7 time all star, but even that may have been too little, once you look at WAR (Wins above Replacement, generally seen as the basest sabre-stat. Essentially, you want a high number here. Zero means average, replacement level, 0-2 means sub level player, 2-4 means starting level talent, 5-7 means All Star, 8+ means MVP level. Craig Biggio had 9 seasons above 4 WAR. Including those, he had 14 seasons above 2 WAR. To be a starting level player for 14 seasons is an impressive feat, if not one people will pay attention to. There's something to be said for being one of the most reliable players in the league. Oh, and most of those seasons? He was the 2nd baseman. A position where there isn't much offensive firepower. The rest of the majority of his career? He was also a catcher. Another position with very little offense. Biggio is one of the best catchers in league history, despite only playing 5 years there, and one of the best 2nd baseman in league history over his 15 years at the position. But there's one more thing that should be noted. He's easily the best to play both positions for any stretch of time.

3. Mike Piazza - Mike Piazza may be relatively unknown compared to the rest of the players on this ballot. And that confuses me, because Piazza may end up being one of the best values of all these players. Piazza was a 62nd round draft pick in 1988. Try to name anyone else drafted anywhere close to as late as him. It's tough. So begins the story of Mike Piazza, who was always overshadowed, playing most of his career with the Mets, in a city that belongs to the Yankees. I said a lot of nice things about Biggio and his .281/.363/.433 line. Well, Piazza's was .308/.377/.545. And keep in mind Piazza was a catcher. He might well be the best offensive catcher in MLB history. He also has 427 career home runs, and an impressive career rating of 143 OPS+. (Just like ERA+, it's league and park adjusted. 100 is average, 140+ is phenominal). And while we're comparing Biggio and Piazza... let's look at Piazza's WAR. 8 seasons above 4, and 12 above 2. Not as "great" as Biggio all around (WAR accounts for defense as well, which Piazza will never be known for) but a superior player offensively. Best 62nd round draft pick in MLB history.

4. Tom Glavine - Glavine may be less of a no doubter than the others, but he's still a guy I think deserves a hall induction. He'll be better known for being the 2nd fiddle to Greg Maddux for a good portion of his career. Maybe even a 2nd fiddle to Tim Hudson as well. Point is, he was never THE guy. He was always the league's best #2/3 starter. His stats aren't as sexy. 305 wins, "only" a 3.54 career ERA... and only 56 career complete games. Only. That may not seem like much when you compare it to the career leaders from the early days of the MLB, but when compared against other modern players, very very few come as close. In fact, the "active" leader in complete games (to qualify one must be an active member of the MLB, and pitch a complete game) is CC Sabathia, with 37. Point is, in today's MLB, there's an emphasis on the bullpen, and for good reason. Complete games have a tendency to tire out a pitcher's arm over his career. Toward the tail end of his career (late 30s, when all those cumulative pitches must have killed his arm) he was awful in comparison to his once "no doubt" hall of fame career. Had the Braves not pitched him so late in so many games, he may have been able to have more seasons of sub 3.30 ERAs. Instead, he went above 4 thrice, and was near it twice more. Ignoring those years (which he shouldn't have been active for), Glavine is one of the most consistently above average pitchers of his generation. The fact he managed to pitch 30+ games a year 17 years of his 22 year career shows his durability and longevity. His is a career worth celebrating.

5. Frank Thomas - He'll always stand out to me as one of the strongest men I've ever seen on a baseball diamond. He has his nickname, "The Big Hurt" for a reason. Whenever he hits the ball, you could literally feel its pain. But ignoring just eye reactions, let's look at this on a more objective, stat based level. He never led the league in homeruns, but managed to compile a total of 521 career homeruns (tied for 18th all time). He also compiled 1704 RBIs, which stands as the 22nd best mark in history. But what really does it for me, is just how good of a pure hitter he was. Had he been aiming for a home run every time out, he could have well gone beyond 600. But no, he was a baseball player. He compiled a .301/.419/.555 average. He got on base 42% of the time he came up to the plate. 1667/1397. That's his walks/k ratio. Most power players have far more k's than walks as a result of swinging for the fences. Not the Big Hurt. He played the game the right way. His career OBP is 20th all time. The only "power" players above him on the OBP list are Babe Ruth (the single greatest hitter of all time), Barry Bonds (who most pitchers feared because of his roiding ways), and Jimmie Foxx and Mickey Mantle. That's elite company. Frank Thomas was the best pure hitter of his generation, and the hall features the best of the best. Should be obvious.

6. Roger Clemens - The hall of fame is not only a place for saints. It also houses its share of villains. Roger Clemens, who was a fantastic pitcher, is probably more known currently for his McNamee saga. But, if being an ass, who does bad things was grounds for expulsion from the hall, Ty Cobb wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame (seriously, google some of the crap he did. It was a different time, but still). Getting that out of the way, Clemens deserves to join the hall for his playing career, regardless of post career antics. 354 career wins (9th all time), 3.12 career ERA, nearly 5000 innings pitched... is this sounding familiar? It should, because it's rather close to the line of one Greg Maddux, who I've already established belongs. In fact, as far as ability goes, Clemens was BETTER than Maddux. Add in his 4672 career strikeouts (3rd all time!), and his 143 career ERA+, and you have one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball history, on an ability standpoint (keep in mind he played in the steroid era). He "may" have done steroids himself. May. It hasn't been proven yet, and even if it is, I won't change my case for him being in the hall. One more fun stat to look at. Remember WAR? Well WAR scores Clemens as an almost unprecedented act. 10 seasons of 7+ WAR (which remember, is the criteria for a near MVP level player). 14 times he broke 5 WAR (all star level). Only three times in his career was he below 2 WAR. One season was his rookie year, another was in the middle. And the last was at the end of his career, at the age of 44, pitching in the AL East. Like him or not, he has the talent, and belongs.

7. Barry Bonds - Same case I made with Clemens needs to be made here. The hall isn't just about stats. It's also a place where the history of the MLB is chronicled for posterity. The Steroid Era happened. There is no denying this. The sooner voters admit this, the sooner we get these legends where they belong. I shouldn't have to make a case for Bonds as a player. He holds three career records. Walks (2558), Intentional Walks (688), and obviously, the one most people know about, home runs (762). Career line of .298/.444/.607. Among qualifying players, his OBP is 6th, and his SLG is 5th, all time. He struck out only HALF as often as he walked. For most players it is the other way around. Perhaps most impressive though, is the fact he owns the single season and career home run record, despite only leading the league in the stat twice. He had a WAR above 10 three separate times. MVP four years in a row, during his mid-late 30s. Oh, and an OPS+ of 182. He may have juiced, and therefor cheated. But that was the Era. And the hall needs to acknowledge this dark part of their history.

8. Edgar Martinez - Now begins the hard part of the ballot. The first four were no doubters. The next three were guys that would be considered for the first ballot any other year in a fair world. These next three are just personal opinion guys. Guys who probably won't make the hall at any point because of the stubborness and "old fashioned" ways of the BBWAA. The first of these, is the one that I feel most strongly about. Edgar Martinez, who I maintain is the 2nd greatest DH in the history of the major leagues (the first, for the record, is David Ortiz). .312/.418/.515. That's his career line. Compare it to that of Frank Thomas. It's not "that" much different. Career OPS+ of 147, which is tied for 41st all time. He also hit 300 homeruns... even though he played half his games in the spacious Mariners stadium. He's one of the best pure hitters in the history of the game. And it's stupid, but the BBWAA will keep him out just because he didn't play defense.

9. Curt Schilling - Curt Schilling is one of those guys that I have less stats to back up, even though he had a very solid career. What stands out most to me is what he did in 2004 for the Red Sox. The bloody sock incident. So, it should be obvious, that as a Red Sox fan, I'm being a "tad" biased selecting him with my 9th pick in a star studded year. He only had 216 wins (not too impressive), he only pitched 83 complete games (which again, like Glavine, looks smaller than it is), and only had an ERA+ of 127. (Glavine's is 118). Looking at the stats, you could use this as an argument against Glavine making the hall. However, I fully believe he belongs. He and Schilling. So what's going to make this case solid? His strikeout totals. 3116 strikeouts in his career. Which is good for 15th all time. You don't get that many Ks if you aren't a very good elite pitcher. So even if we don't count his post-season glory, I think this is a solid case.

10. Mark McGwire - This one, admittedly, is the weakest case of all my choices. He admitted to doing steroids, which while speaking highly of his character (I prefer when athletes come clean) speaks lowly of his actual talent. Where does the talent end and the juice begin? Just how good was Mark McGwire? .263/.394/.588. This line isn't terribly impressive. In fact, his low batting average scares me, and makes me want to strike his case from my ballot. But he hit 583 home runs, and was a big part of the steroid era, like Barry Bonds. He had a career OPS+ of 163, which is fantastic, and played over half his career in Oakland, which is notorious for having far back fences. I guess it's another one of those cases of the hall being a chronicle of baseball's history. McGwire is part of MLB's illustrious history, even during a dark chapter.

So, if anyone else wants to chime in, go right ahead, I'm curious to see who everyone else would vote for.
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01-05-14 07:50 PM
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I think that the following players should make it in:
- Craig Biggio
- Tom Glavine
- Jeff Kent
- Greg Maddux
- Don Mattingly
- Fred McGriff
- Mark McGwire
- Mike Mussina
- Mike Piazza
- Curt Schilling
- Sammy Sosa
- Frank Thomas
I think that the following players should make it in:
- Craig Biggio
- Tom Glavine
- Jeff Kent
- Greg Maddux
- Don Mattingly
- Fred McGriff
- Mark McGwire
- Mike Mussina
- Mike Piazza
- Curt Schilling
- Sammy Sosa
- Frank Thomas
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01-07-14 05:07 PM
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Well, it's tomorrow. 
I was really hoping that Mike Piazza would make it in this year but after the first half of the votes had been tallied, Piazza was short by a few percent.  I also heard that Greg Maddux just may break Tom Seaver's record for highest percent of votes.
Well, it's tomorrow. 
I was really hoping that Mike Piazza would make it in this year but after the first half of the votes had been tallied, Piazza was short by a few percent.  I also heard that Greg Maddux just may break Tom Seaver's record for highest percent of votes.
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01-07-14 05:12 PM
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zanderlex :

Where are you getting your numbers? From what I've seen only about 30% of the votes have been found. I'm using this site here as the basis for that number. I use their gizmo every year to track votes.

Speaking of which, the one person who HASNT voted for Greg Maddux, and thus is so far the only reason he won't be the first unanimous selection, is Ken Gurnick, who is probably the least credible voter ever.

Here's his reasoning:

"Morris has flaws -- a 3.90 ERA, for example. But he gets my vote for more than a decade of ace performance that included three 20-win seasons, Cy Young Award votes in seven seasons and Most Valuable Player Award votes in five. As for those who played during the period of PED use, I won't vote for any of them."

A reminder, you can vote for 10 names maximum.

He voted 1. Jack Morris, who in my opinion is less deserving than all 10 guys I voted. Who cares about pitcher wins? It's an outdated stat.
zanderlex :

Where are you getting your numbers? From what I've seen only about 30% of the votes have been found. I'm using this site here as the basis for that number. I use their gizmo every year to track votes.

Speaking of which, the one person who HASNT voted for Greg Maddux, and thus is so far the only reason he won't be the first unanimous selection, is Ken Gurnick, who is probably the least credible voter ever.

Here's his reasoning:

"Morris has flaws -- a 3.90 ERA, for example. But he gets my vote for more than a decade of ace performance that included three 20-win seasons, Cy Young Award votes in seven seasons and Most Valuable Player Award votes in five. As for those who played during the period of PED use, I won't vote for any of them."

A reminder, you can vote for 10 names maximum.

He voted 1. Jack Morris, who in my opinion is less deserving than all 10 guys I voted. Who cares about pitcher wins? It's an outdated stat.
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01-07-14 05:18 PM
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legacyme3 : I am a Sport Management major at my university, so we get to learn a lot before it really hits the news or anywhere else. Just On Friday a few guys from MLB came over and spoke to everybody. 
legacyme3 : I am a Sport Management major at my university, so we get to learn a lot before it really hits the news or anywhere else. Just On Friday a few guys from MLB came over and spoke to everybody. 
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01-07-14 05:22 PM
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zanderlex :

Not that I'm doubting you or anything, but I was a sports management major too. That's not neccesarily a green light to get information.

Basically, source or gtfo
zanderlex :

Not that I'm doubting you or anything, but I was a sports management major too. That's not neccesarily a green light to get information.

Basically, source or gtfo
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01-08-14 06:33 AM
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legacyme3 : How much of this did you paste vs. write with your own opinion?  You open with Jack Morris's wins don't matter because wins are an outdated stat and yet you discuss all your pitchers on your own list with their wins.

Your first Greg Maddux stat is 355 wins.
You tell us Tom Glavine has 305 wins.
You say Clemens has 354 wins, good for 9th all time.
Curt Schilling 216 wins (not too impressive)

Do wins matter or don't they?


Maybe I'm older and I think baseball isn't as good as before.  Ray Durham?  What's he doing on the list?  Jeff Kent?  JT Snow?  Yuck

The names on there that could be in the Hall, in no particular order:
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Roger Clemens
Kenny Rogers

That's it so far.

legacyme3 : How much of this did you paste vs. write with your own opinion?  You open with Jack Morris's wins don't matter because wins are an outdated stat and yet you discuss all your pitchers on your own list with their wins.

Your first Greg Maddux stat is 355 wins.
You tell us Tom Glavine has 305 wins.
You say Clemens has 354 wins, good for 9th all time.
Curt Schilling 216 wins (not too impressive)

Do wins matter or don't they?


Maybe I'm older and I think baseball isn't as good as before.  Ray Durham?  What's he doing on the list?  Jeff Kent?  JT Snow?  Yuck

The names on there that could be in the Hall, in no particular order:
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Roger Clemens
Kenny Rogers

That's it so far.

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01-08-14 10:53 AM
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warmaker :

I wrote all of it aside from the quote about Morris. Wins DONT matter but to Hall of Fame voters they apparently do. So I open with their reasoning and then shift to my own, for pitchers I value three things above all else, strikeouts, ERA+, and WAR. I say wins are outdated and I mean it. However, you can't ignore that a pitcher has 300+ wins like Maddux, Glavine, and Clemens do. Whether one thinks it's outdated or not, 300 is one of the loftier milestones in the modern day game. And in most of those cases the pitcher won the game through a result of their longevity in games, hence my mention of complete games.

When I objectively look at the players you listed, aside from Clemens, the only one of those guys who should be considered is McGriff.

Nothing against Mattingly, but he was just above average, not elite enough to go to the hall. A player of his caliber today would be Nomar Garciaparra. I don't say that because I'm biased, but Nomar, like Mattingly didn't play very long careers and share a similar enough line and rough career stats, that I'm not convinced Mattingly should be there. Consider Nomar's position for most of his career, shortstop. How many offensive shortstops can you name on Mattingly/Nomar's level?

And nothing against Kenny Rogers, but his ERA+ if 107 is the definition of average. Most of his line is average, and he wasn't so important to the history of the sport to induct him on that note.

-----
I have the last post, so I need to edit my post in...

The votes have been tallied, and the BBWAA have made their announcement.

Below are the results along with voting percentages (75% required for induction, 5% or less to be removed from the ballot for next year)

INDUCTED

Greg Maddux - 97.2%
Tom Glavine - 91.9
Frank Thomas - 83.7

NARROW MISSES
Craig Biggio - 74.8
Mike Piazza - 62.2
Jack Morris - 61.5

WITHIN REASON
Jeff Bagwell - 54.3
Tim Raines - 46.1
Roger Clemens - 35.4
Barry Bonds - 34.7

LACKING SUPPORT
Lee Smith - 29.9
Curt Schilling - 29.2
Edgar Martinez - 25.2
Alan Trammell - 20.8
Mike Mussina - 20.3
Jeff Kent - 15.2

PROBABLY NEVER GETTING IN
Fred McGriff - 11.7
Mark McGwire - 11.0
Larry Walker - 10.2
Don Mattingly - 8.2
Sammy Sosa - 7.2

ELIMINATED FROM THE BALLOT
Rafael Palmeiro - 4.4
Moises Alou - 1.1
Hideo Nomo - 1.1
Luis Gonzalez - 0.9
Eric Gagne - 0.4
J.T. Snow - 0.4
Armando Benitez - 0.2
Jacque Jones - 0.2
Kenny Rogers - 0.2

Not listed are players who didn't even manage 1 vote.

So, Palmerio is finally eliminated from contention, as is Jack Morris (This was his 15th year on the ballot). Craig Biggio misses out on induction by 2 votes, and we have three new hall of famers to join the managers voted on by the Expansion Era Committee.

So, now that it is settled who is in and who is not... it's time to look forward to 2015's hall of fame class.

Joining Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, Raines, Clemens, Bonds, Smith, Schilling, Martinez, Trammell, Mussina, Kent, McGriff, McGwire, Walker, Mattingly, and Sosa... will be the first years below.

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Gary Sheffield
Brian Giles
Nomar Garciaparra
Carlos Delgado
Darin Erstad
Tom Gordon
Jason Schmidt

There will be other players listed of course, but next year's ballot looks to be just as star studded as this year's was. Early reaction is that next year, my 10 votes would probably be Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield, Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Edgar Martinez, and Curt Schilling.

This means, I will not likely vote for Mark McGwire, who I voted for this year.

Also of note, next year will be Don Mattingly's last year on the BBWAA ballot. So if Mattingly doesn't get in next year, he, like Jack Morris, will have his fate in the hands of the Veteran's Committee.

I'm disappointed Biggio didn't get in this year, and that Piazza didn't as well, but I know both will make it in time.
warmaker :

I wrote all of it aside from the quote about Morris. Wins DONT matter but to Hall of Fame voters they apparently do. So I open with their reasoning and then shift to my own, for pitchers I value three things above all else, strikeouts, ERA+, and WAR. I say wins are outdated and I mean it. However, you can't ignore that a pitcher has 300+ wins like Maddux, Glavine, and Clemens do. Whether one thinks it's outdated or not, 300 is one of the loftier milestones in the modern day game. And in most of those cases the pitcher won the game through a result of their longevity in games, hence my mention of complete games.

When I objectively look at the players you listed, aside from Clemens, the only one of those guys who should be considered is McGriff.

Nothing against Mattingly, but he was just above average, not elite enough to go to the hall. A player of his caliber today would be Nomar Garciaparra. I don't say that because I'm biased, but Nomar, like Mattingly didn't play very long careers and share a similar enough line and rough career stats, that I'm not convinced Mattingly should be there. Consider Nomar's position for most of his career, shortstop. How many offensive shortstops can you name on Mattingly/Nomar's level?

And nothing against Kenny Rogers, but his ERA+ if 107 is the definition of average. Most of his line is average, and he wasn't so important to the history of the sport to induct him on that note.

-----
I have the last post, so I need to edit my post in...

The votes have been tallied, and the BBWAA have made their announcement.

Below are the results along with voting percentages (75% required for induction, 5% or less to be removed from the ballot for next year)

INDUCTED

Greg Maddux - 97.2%
Tom Glavine - 91.9
Frank Thomas - 83.7

NARROW MISSES
Craig Biggio - 74.8
Mike Piazza - 62.2
Jack Morris - 61.5

WITHIN REASON
Jeff Bagwell - 54.3
Tim Raines - 46.1
Roger Clemens - 35.4
Barry Bonds - 34.7

LACKING SUPPORT
Lee Smith - 29.9
Curt Schilling - 29.2
Edgar Martinez - 25.2
Alan Trammell - 20.8
Mike Mussina - 20.3
Jeff Kent - 15.2

PROBABLY NEVER GETTING IN
Fred McGriff - 11.7
Mark McGwire - 11.0
Larry Walker - 10.2
Don Mattingly - 8.2
Sammy Sosa - 7.2

ELIMINATED FROM THE BALLOT
Rafael Palmeiro - 4.4
Moises Alou - 1.1
Hideo Nomo - 1.1
Luis Gonzalez - 0.9
Eric Gagne - 0.4
J.T. Snow - 0.4
Armando Benitez - 0.2
Jacque Jones - 0.2
Kenny Rogers - 0.2

Not listed are players who didn't even manage 1 vote.

So, Palmerio is finally eliminated from contention, as is Jack Morris (This was his 15th year on the ballot). Craig Biggio misses out on induction by 2 votes, and we have three new hall of famers to join the managers voted on by the Expansion Era Committee.

So, now that it is settled who is in and who is not... it's time to look forward to 2015's hall of fame class.

Joining Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, Raines, Clemens, Bonds, Smith, Schilling, Martinez, Trammell, Mussina, Kent, McGriff, McGwire, Walker, Mattingly, and Sosa... will be the first years below.

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Gary Sheffield
Brian Giles
Nomar Garciaparra
Carlos Delgado
Darin Erstad
Tom Gordon
Jason Schmidt

There will be other players listed of course, but next year's ballot looks to be just as star studded as this year's was. Early reaction is that next year, my 10 votes would probably be Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield, Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Edgar Martinez, and Curt Schilling.

This means, I will not likely vote for Mark McGwire, who I voted for this year.

Also of note, next year will be Don Mattingly's last year on the BBWAA ballot. So if Mattingly doesn't get in next year, he, like Jack Morris, will have his fate in the hands of the Veteran's Committee.

I'm disappointed Biggio didn't get in this year, and that Piazza didn't as well, but I know both will make it in time.
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(edited by legacyme3 on 01-08-14 02:27 PM)    

01-12-14 09:00 PM
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legacyme3 :

I think they got the balloting right this time around although I have no doubt that all who were eligible, but didn’t get in this time will eventually get in.  I felt bad for Craig Biggio missing getting in by two votes. It’s a shame, but it took thirty-two years for Phil Rizzuto to get elected. He should have been elected much earlier than 1994 in my opinion.  Hopefully 2015 will be Biggio’s year.  As a die hard Mets and Yankees fan I would also like to see Mike Piazza and Don Mattingly also get elected in the near future.

 

 

legacyme3 :

I think they got the balloting right this time around although I have no doubt that all who were eligible, but didn’t get in this time will eventually get in.  I felt bad for Craig Biggio missing getting in by two votes. It’s a shame, but it took thirty-two years for Phil Rizzuto to get elected. He should have been elected much earlier than 1994 in my opinion.  Hopefully 2015 will be Biggio’s year.  As a die hard Mets and Yankees fan I would also like to see Mike Piazza and Don Mattingly also get elected in the near future.

 

 

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01-21-14 05:39 PM
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I was extremely happy with the choices the baseball hall of fame made this year. I am a Baltimore Orioles fan, and I live out near Chicago, and I would go out to the old Comiskey Park and watch my O's go against the Sox. I would love to watch "the big hurt" play, but I very much disliked it when he would hit a big hit against us.

Definitely happy with the choices. :-)
I was extremely happy with the choices the baseball hall of fame made this year. I am a Baltimore Orioles fan, and I live out near Chicago, and I would go out to the old Comiskey Park and watch my O's go against the Sox. I would love to watch "the big hurt" play, but I very much disliked it when he would hit a big hit against us.

Definitely happy with the choices. :-)
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