Just wondering if anyone is following this story since Hamas declared the cease-fire over a week or so ago.

I have some things I want to post about but I wanted to get this started tonight before I went to bed. There is a lot going on there that needs to come out.

it pisses me off how the media is so biased against israel. in these situations, they always try to put israel at fault and make them look bad. in an article i read in the philadelphia inquirer, the writer first said that hamas killed 2 israelis, but after israel gave mixed signals about how they would handle these recent attacks. this person, as many others do, believes killing two israeli people is justifiable because israel gave mixed signals about a response to recent rocket attacks from hamas. it is terrible how people think israel is the bully in all this even though the clear aggressor is and always has been hamas

I think that israel is using it's weapons to kill innocent people that aren't even equiped for war . Just seeing israel with their massive weapons killing on the other side palestinians
with tiny weapons makes me feel sick.So you say hamas killed 2 israelis , but i say isreal killed more than 400 person . And that is my opinion .

You think they've only killed 2? that was just one instance! Hamas is a terrorist organization and they have ROCKETS! Those are pretty significant weapons if you ask me. Israel poorly portrayed in the media as a bully when Hamas incites and attacks Israel constantly. Most of the people Israel killed were Hamas leaders. Maybe if Hamas didn't attack Israel, then Israel wouldn't have to respond. Might I remind you that Hamas broke the ceasefire

yeah, poor palestine. Maybe if they would stop firing rockets into Israel then they wouldn't have gotten slaughtered. I have no sympathy for a group of people that attack from residential areas and use civilians to hide behind. You wonder why there are so many casualties that are non-military, it's because Hamas is everywhere in the civilian population. They use innocent people as shields in order to create worldwide sympathy for their cause.

Do you honestly believe that every picture that comes out of that area is authentic? There is evidence of staged pictures. People being brought in to mourn bodies or to show off "injuries".

I wonder if people really realize the extent to which this is a one-sided problem. Hamas, and the rest of extremist Islam, will never quit attacking Israel until all the Jews are dead and the country of Israel is wiped off the map. That is their goal. Open your eyes. Stop listening to the MSM's view of what this war represents. Start listening to what Islamic groups say about Israel and the US and the "West" in general. It's scary. The propoganda on that side is at such an extreme level that nothing I have seen up to now even compares.

Yeah, there have been only 2 Israeli casualties reported so far and around 400 reported from Palenstinans and many people see this as disproportionate. Is it really? You have a militant group that basically has rockets and machine guns fighting against a country with fighter jets, artilery and tanks. An equivalent response in relative strength from Israel is going to look overwhelming because Israel is quite powerful militarily in the area.

Oh yeah, don't forget that Israel gave back gaza to the palestinians and all they've done is use it as an area to fire rockets and such from

Israel has officially gone back in to the Gaza Strip. Approximately 10,000 troops have moved in to northern Gaza. I guess Israel is tired of having hundreds and thousands of rockets being fired in to their country. Maybe Hamas shouldn't have ended the ceasefire they had agreed to.

Yeah, HUUUUUUGE mistake on their part. Israel has a beastly army. They will completely push Hamas out if they need to.

I don't think so

Originally posted by anesthehero

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I don't think so

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what don't you think so....

that doesn't really qualify as a good post.... you didn't add to the conversation and probably in the end will have killed this thread unless Ziggy and I can work around you

Wait, is anesthehero dissing the Israeli army? How do you think Israel has lived through dozens of wars in a 60 year time span completely surrounded by countries who hate them? It's their army, which is one of the best in the world. Israel captured gaza in the first place and can take it back if necessary.

he probably is.

I know a lot of people think a 2 state solution is what is needed but I just see it as giving Hamas a legitimate country to live in while shooting rockets at Israel. And then when Israel tries to fight back it now becomes Israel attacking a sovereign nation and not just fighting a terrorist group. It is only going to make the problem worse.


I don't understand why some people can't see the undying hatred that Islamic extremist groups, and even some moderate muslim groups, have for Israel. These people advocate for the absolute destruction of Israel and the Jews and nothing less than that will appease them. I'm not sure why the world insists on appeasement. It hasn't worked in the past. It won't work now.

Originally posted by geeogree

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he probably is.

I know a lot of people think a 2 state solution is what is needed but I just see it as giving Hamas a legitimate country to live in while shooting rockets at Israel. And then when Israel tries to fight back it now becomes Israel attacking a sovereign nation and not just fighting a terrorist group. It is only going to make the problem worse.


I don't understand why some people can't see the undying hatred that Islamic extremist groups, and even some moderate muslim groups, have for Israel. These people advocate for the absolute destruction of Israel and the Jews and nothing less than that will appease them. I'm not sure why the world insists on appeasement. It hasn't worked in the past. It won't work now.

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people just hate Israel for no good reason. There are many intolerant people who think Israel is the villain, when all it does is try to survive constant attacks from both surrounding countries and groups within the country

Originally posted by geeogree

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Yeah, there have been only 2 Israeli casualties reported so far and around 400 reported from Palenstinans and many people see this as disproportionate. Is it really? You have a militant group that basically has rockets and machine guns fighting against a country with fighter jets, artilery and tanks. An equivalent response in relative strength from Israel is going to look overwhelming because Israel is quite powerful militarily in the area.

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Originally posted by geeogree

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I guess Israel is tired of having hundreds and thousands of rockets being fired in to their country.

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First off, check your facts. According to Israel's own website, less than five thousand successful missile strikes have been launched from Gaza to Israel in the past eight years, and only a little over two thousand since Hamas gained power. I suppose 2,056 technically counts as "thousands," but you're making it sound bigger than it is.

And yes, the number of casualties is disproportionate. Or rather, you're right, if you compare military strengths the numbers seem right or only a little off, but that's only if you ignore their relative population sizes: Israel's 7.2 million citizens versus the Gaza Strip's one-and-a-half. A "proportionate" military response with that in consideration would be for an Israeli soldier to forcibly remove a limb or two from some random Palestinian, or alternately take out a Gazan military or civil facility. By your argument, and Israel's, a six foot 200 pound man is perfectly justified in attacking a twelve year old boy with a sledgehammer after being stung a few times with a slingshot.

Even if you do chose to ignore the population factor, it is still Israel's responsibility as the supposedly civilized member of this conflict to show restraint,

Originally posted by The New York Times

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Palestinian officials said that most of the dead were security officers for Hamas, including two senior commanders, and that at least 600 people had been wounded in the attacks.
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The dead included civilians, including several construction workers and at least two children in school uniforms.

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...which it has clearly not elected to do.

Originally posted by ziggy

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Oh yeah, don't forget that Israel gave back gaza to the palestinians and all they've done is use it as an area to fire rockets and such from

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Originally posted by ziggy

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How do you think Israel has lived through dozens of wars in a 60 year time span completely surrounded by countries who hate them? It's their army, which is one of the best in the world. Israel captured gaza in the first place and can take it back if necessary.

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Did you ever even stop to ask why Israel is surrounded by countries that hate it? Seriously. Think about it. You should know, because you just said a large part of it. Sure, some of it has to do with the religious aspect (which makes you wonder why they decided to put modern Israel there in the first place), but there's always been a small but significant population of Jews and Christians in the region, so it can't just be "Muslims hate Jews! Yar!" because they're not all Muslims. I think it may have more to do with the fact that an army invaded and forcibly took control of the region and, aided by the UK and the League of Nations/United Nations, generated a new state while displacing the existing population in the wake of the two World Wars. After the war immediately following Israel's declaration as a sovereign nation it expelled the majority of the preexisting Arab population, and much of the property they left behind was quickly occupied by Israeli settlers. Wouldn't you be angry?

Regarding the area of our immediate concern, following the events I just described the Gaza Strip was under Egypt's control until the Six-Day War, at the conclusion of which it was under the military occupation of Isreal. A population that "enjoys" military occupation is never happy. Even now, after Israel has withdrawn it's military forces and allowed the population to govern itself again, it maintains an economic stranglehold and control of several vital basic resources. And these resources it restricts. Is it any surprise that Gaza, or rather portions of it's population, have assumed a violently hostile posture?

Actually ziggy, are you from the United States? I ask because the actions of the Gazans is similar to those of the citizens of the British Colonies at the time of the American Revolutionary War. Under economic and military pressure, both populations decide to put people into power that are/were willing to fight against the oppressing force. But while history calls the Americans "revolutionaries", Hamas is called "terrorist". Granted, in this comparison I'm glossing over a lot of details, but it's still something to consider.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to cast Hamas as the Good Guys. But there's nothing to recommend Israel for the role either.

stung with a sling shot? Way to play down what Hamas is doing. Firing hundreds or thousands of rockets at another country is not a "sling shot" equivalent attack.

I don't see why Israel should be required to show restraint anymore. They've been putting up with getting fired at for over 5 years. What other country on the planet is required to wait that long before fighting back against the country or group that is attacking in this way?

I have to point out that according to the Ney York Times article it said that "most" of the dead were security officers. Israel very well could have just dropped bombs all over Gaza and just killed people all over the place. Instead they have made every effort to minimize civilian casualties. It doesn't help that the terrorist group that they are fighting uses the civilian population as human shields.

I do agree that Israel doesn't help the situation by some of it's actions. It also doesn't help that Hamas uses financial aid and humanitarian supplies not to help the people in Gaza but to buy rockets and mortars to shoot in to Israel. I bet if the rockets stopped being fired in to Israel then the economic sanctions they have placed over Gaza would get lifted.

I love how people use the American Revolution as an example of how Hamas shouldn't be considered terrorists. How does that make any sense? The Americans weren't firing hundreds of rockets at England. Americans wanted freedom from England. Hamas doesn't want that. Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Completely. They won't stop until they achieve that goal. That is the goal of quite a few terrorist groups and countries in the middle east. This isn't some western conspiracy, it is the truth. These groups are not subtle about it either. http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/ - go there and watch the 27 minute movie. Watch the Islamic leaders in the videos and pay attention to the language they use.

Trias, you proved some of my points. Look at Israel, then look at gaza. gaza is a small area that is ABSURDLY DENSELY POPULATED, more people will die there. Don't forget that hamas hides behind civilians as well, though. I suppose you heard about the school being hit by mortar fire at some point. yeah, 30 people died, but do you think that ONE mortar can alone kill 30 people? it can't fyi, and if you must know, hamas was STORING ROCKETS UNDERNEATH THE SCHOOL. the mortar caused a chain reaction with the rockets and, you get the picture. See if hamas didn't store and fire weapons from civilian locations, those things would never happen. They hide behind innocent people and when the innocent die with them, they use it against Israel saying "look how many died" when its hamas' fault in the first place

second, israel has no reason to show restraint. they gave back gaza to the palestinians, and all that happened was that they got a new place to attack from. the distance from gaza into israel about 20 blocks, pretty damn close for rockets

thirdly, yes the neighboring areas and countries are pretty much all muslim. in all the world, 90% of arabs are muslims. Most of that 10% isn't living in the middle east.

I understand that you think that you aren't portraying hamas as the "good guy," but because you are intolerant enough to say that israel is the bad guy, you certainly are. hamas broke the ceasfire, might i remind you. everything else that i haven't addressed, geeogree did already. try to be less intolerant with your views from now on

Considering that in an eleven-month period fifteen hundred rockets have been fired from Gaza at a target "about 20 blocks" away and Israel's big stink is two casualties, I'd say sling shot is a fairly apt description. And at what point did I say Israel should do nothing? By all means Israel, do something. But a broad artillery and bombing campaign followed by a full-scale ground invasion? Really? When Israel's goal is ostensibly to prevent more damage and casualties, it doesn't really make sense to make attacks causing millions of dollars of property damage at times and locations guaranteed to have civilians in the way. Israel is doing more harm than it's ever going to prevent this way. If Israel wants to claim moral superiority than it needs to act in a morally superior way. And that includes showing restraint.

And Israel isn't making "every" effort to minimize civilian casualties. It's making some effort. If it was making every effort, than for a start it would attack at night, when the greatest number of civilians is going to be in bed rather than in the streets and buildings that are about to be blown up. Both of you, geeogree and ziggy, say that it's ok that Israel is killing civilians because Hamas rocket launchers are hiding behind them. How is that ok? How is that morally acceptable? If some bank robbers hide behind hostages and start shooting at the SWAT team, does that make it suddenly ok for the SWAT team to lob in a few grenades, follow up with some machine gun fire and hope for the best? Sure, a few hostages might get killed, but hey. It's ok. It's their fault for getting in the way in the first place. You both say that Israel is the Good Guy here, and fine, believe that if you want, but me? I prefer my good guys to act like it.

Actually, I knew that comparing Hamas to the American Revolutionaries wouldn't stand up to criticism (although I didn't know other people have already tried), as I said, I glossed over a lot of important details. However, while the Americans weren't firing rockets (what rockets by the way? If they had existed then, I'm sure they would have been employed by both sides), they were doing everything in their power to disrupt English trade and shoot at British troops from behind trees. The Revolutionaries also arrested, exiled, and/or killed British Loyalists and seized their property, and disguised themselves within the general civilian population for at least part of the war. Had history gone another way, I'm sure we would be calling those revolutionaries "terrorists" right now. So the comparison isn't completely daft.

But my point was and is not that the members of Hamas are the "Gazan Revolutionaries", but that they and the American Revolutionaries gained power in the same way. An external power oppresses the general population, so when someone announces that they'll fight, they get handed the reigns. Motivation doesn't matter to them. To civilians, "I'll fight them" is almost as good as "I'll fight them for you", at least until the battle is over. They're willing to put up with the fact that Hamas is corrupt if it means someone will stand up to Israel.

And it's not just that Israel "doesn't help the situation", Israel actively contributed by instituting that economic blockade from the get-go. So yeah, Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians, but they also continued to give them a reason to be angry. Normally when faced with a crazy extremist, you or me or most people might sympathize a little, or argue against them, or just ignore them. But when Hamas started yelling that Israel is an evil and must be destroyed, the people looked, and many saw that they were right: After all, Israel invaded, chased them off, settled in their homes, treated them like criminals, and economically crippled them. Israel gave Hamas a years-long recruiting drive. Geeogree bet that if the rockets stopped firing from Gaza, the sanctions would be lifted. I bet that if those sanctions had never been there in the first place, most of those rockets wouldn't have been fired.

Ziggy: What points of yours did I prove? How? Seeing as Gaza is ABSURDLY DENSELY POPULATED, that should mean that Israel needs to be more careful about picking it's targets, not that it should care less about collateral damage. I have already addressed your second. As to your thirdly, what're your sources? Lebanon for instance is about 40% Christian. Most of the other surrounding countries are closer to your 90% statistic (Both Syria and Egypt are about 90% Muslim and 10% Christian, although Egypt isn't even Arabic, it's Egyptian), but that's the actual local population, not Arabs worldwide. Before you ask, my source is the CIA Factbook. And in any case most are Muslim =/= all are Muslim. I like, by the way, how you completely fail to address my point that there are more reasons than religion fueling the anger here. Pop quiz: Did Al-Qaeda attack the US only because we're capitalist crusader infidel pigs? Or did it also have something to do with the fact that we screwed Afghanistan over when we intervened there in the Cold War? Same principle applies here. Note that I'm not saying it's one or the other, I'm saying it's both. But the secular reasons feed into the religious ones, and frequently get expressed in religious terms. Same thing happened in the Crusades, too. Arabic Muslim armies invade and capture portions of the Christian Byzantine Empire, so Rome launches a series of wars to get the territory back. But are those wars religious wars, or are they territorial wars described religiously to help them be more popular with the people doing the fighting?

Also, I challenge you ziggy to show me exactly where and how I am being intolerant of anything that isn't intolerable.

Just a brief disclaimer here geeogree, because I don't want to leave you wondering: I'm not going to watch your movie, because I don't feel any particular need to spend half an hour to watch a propaganda video that's telling me something I already know. Let me repeat that in case I wasn't clear: From your description, that movie will tell me things I already know and believe. So I see no use in my watching it.

Maybe I should summarize my stance here since both of you have misunderstood me so far: I think that Hamas is a terrorist organization that was legitimately given governmental control by a people desperate for relief from an oppressive outside power. That neither makes Hamas no longer terrorist, nor does it exonerate its criminal actions. Hamas is a "Bad Guy". Israel is defending itself, but it is defending itself from a people that it has needlessly antagonized for at least a decade. And now Israel has launched a full scale attack, including civilian casualties, to stop a group that Israel itself has inadvertently put into power. If not also a "Bad Guy" right here and now, than Israel is at least very, very stupid, which is almost as bad. There are no "Good Guys" here. There are just bad guys, idiots, and civilians caught in the middle. The only reason I'm arguing against you like this is because you are both placing the blame solely on Gaza's shoulders, and blithely ignoring or rationalizing the parts of Israel's behavior that are less than savory. Frankly, there is enough blame to spread around for everyone.

...I need to try to be less wordy. No promises that I'll succeed though.

1. you said how gaza had 1.5 million people, that's why more people would be dying, because of the population density.
2. you don't realize that hamas has caused problems and attacked israel for over 11 months, and that period includes a 6 month ceasefire that hamas broke. you make 1,500 rockets seem like it's nothing. if mexico did to us what hamas is doing to israel, there would be no more mexico (it's a proper analogy because of location and population)
3. you forget about suicide bombings that hamas carries out
4. israel's attacks are both destroying hamas weapon supply and killing hamas members. civilian casualties happen during war, but you might not know that
5. The American revolution was a rebellion against a country that oppressed us and taxed us unfairly. the revolution was carried out by people who felt the need for independance, which the people in gaza have since israel gave it back. also, we didn't attack the british on THEIR LAND. they were in U.S. territory and that's where we fought. here, not there. shooting behind trees, by the way, isn't shooting behind civilians, unless you think that trees are people too.
6. Your side of this argument is the one that says that Israel has no right to exist. If you knew anything about the persecution the Jews have suffered through, you wouldn't have such an intolerant and frankly anti-semitic viewpoint
7. 90% of arabs are muslim, and that is a fact i learned when studying the middle east in school last year. also, hezbollah, the terrorist group israel fights based in lebanon, is a muslim organization. by the way, hezbollah is funded by iran and hamas is funded by hezbollah
8. Israel fueled the fire? How, by giving gaza back and trying to make peace talks? Oh yeah, and who broke the ceasfire again? Hamas did, in case you didn't know
9. Most of your viewpoints are hamas propaganda, so when geeogree tries to give you a movie that IS THE FACTS, you deny it because you think that your lies are the truth, when those informed on the subject would disagree to your outrageous claims
10. the palestinians don't want hamas in power anymore
11. under what you think of as a terrorist organization, hamas and hezbollah aren't qualified as one because they control the government. yet they carry out acts of terrorism such as suicide bombings and rocket fire unprovoked
12. we helped osama kick the russians out of afghanistan
13. you think that israel is oppressing the palestinians? Israel is only separating from them to avoid being shot from hills looking into large cities and suicide bombed. they have their own government, remember
14. hamas can almost hit tel-aviv with their rockets. tel-aviv is one of, if not the most populous city in israel. Israel has the right to defend it's borders from people attacking it who could soon be a severe threat to 1/3 of the population (that's the middle of israel, which hamas can almost hit, if i wasn't clear enough)
15. you fail to address that hamas is spending all of the palestinian government money on weapons, rather than providing basic necessities for its citizens. which government is the monster here?

Before you spout any more hamas propaganda or say that Israel should be wiped off the map, actually think about the situation with an OPEN mind, if it isn't too difficult

1. Population density has nothing to do with why more people are dying. If it did, than why aren't more people dying in Tel Aviv? The reason more people are dying in Gaza than Israel is because Hamas has rockets, mortars, and partially-trained guerrilla troops. Israel is armed with military equipment and fully trained soldiers that are nearly on par with ours, which is widely considered to be the best in the world. Israel is killing more people because Israel's people and equipment are more efficient at killing.
2. I am fully aware that Hamas has been attacking Israel for over 11 months. In case you don't remember, I'm the one that linked to the page that counted those 1500 rockets, which is almost double the amount of rockets fired during any other of the past eight years.
3. I didn't forget them, they never came up.
4. Civilian casualties happen during war, yes. And Israel is not only doing nothing to avoid the ones that are avoidable, it seems to be doing everything short of targeting schools and hospitals to increase the civilian casualties in Gaza. Oh wait-! They did bomb schools didn't they?
5. Gaza has no independence. As I have already said twice now, after Israel withdrew from Gaza, Israel continued to unfairly tax Gaza and otherwise force them to be economically dependent, and also maintains total control over several basic resources and most of Gaza's borders. Also, check your history a little more closely. The colonies belonged to England (and France, and I think Germany...). We were fighting on English land for the right to call it ours.
6. I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. And for the record, my grandfather was an officer of the troops that first liberated (iirc) the Dachau concentration camp.
7. Then your textbook should have a citation for that statistic, or your teacher. Come back when you have it or find a different source. And what does Hezballah have to do with anything?
8. Yes, Hamas broke the ceasefire. It was a bad move. But it wasn't unprovoked. See #5.
9. What? Did you miss the part where I twice wrote that I think I probably agree with it? Let me say it a third time: From what geeogree said, I already agree with the message of that movie. As far as I am concerned, it would be preaching to the choir.
10. That's fine if they don't, actually that's probably good if it's true. But please provide a source.
11. It doesn't matter if you call them a terrorist organization or not. What they do matters, and why. Either way, what's your point?
12. You're right here. On Afghanistan, I'm the one who had the facts wrong.
13. I'm not going to repeat myself again. If you haven't payed attention so far, you're not going to now.
14. If you actually read my last post, you would have seen where I agreed that Israel has a right to defend itself.
15. One. The other. Both. Neither. Take your pick. As far as how they relate to each other, neither have stunning records.

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With all due respect ziggy, are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else? Are you actually reading what I'm writing? Because you're putting words in my mouth and accusing me of believing things I have never actually written or said. I don't appreciate libel. Please stop. If you persist in misrepresenting what I have said and believe I will be forced to conclude that you are not interested in intelligent discussion on this topic and proceed to ignore you in this thread.

Good night.

I'm not one for political discussions/arguments, but I did find something interesting in the news that relates to this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7820438.stm
Check it out.