admiralwilliams
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Any commentary on this quote:
Bad Officials are elected by Good Citizens who do not vote.
Personally I believe it a civic responsibility to vote; to forgo this privilege is a mistake, many people do not have this option and are under evil dictators such as North Korea, Cuba, China, Venezuela.

Blue Octorok

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soxfan849
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I don't vote to make a statement. Every vote is the same thing. Democrats vs republicans. It's about electing the person that you think is the lesser of two evils. If everyone keeps voting and electing these people, politics will never change.

I'd organize a group of people for a fake write-in (like on South Park), but I wouldn't be able to get enough people together. Maybe one day someone better than me will do just that.

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NotJon
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I take offense to Venezuela being listed as one of the countries being occupied by an evil dictator considering Chavez was elected and Venezuela and Venezuelans in general are in pretty good shape. Other than that, I agree with you.

I don't believe that the candidates (for the most part) are bad people. However, I do think that a good portion of them, especially many Republicans, are wrong. I feel that if we had a system with more candidates, less emphasis on political party or perhaps no parties at all, and equal funding for each serious candidate, we'd have a much better system. 

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admiralwilliams :
i beleive that sometimes one must serve one and only one individual rather many because it destroys confusion.  With only one representative call the shots no one else can be blame for whom ever is in charges mishap.  If I were to run for ruler I would select absolute monarchy as my political party and I asure you that I would not be a bad leader.  If that were the case, I'm sure you would have abandoned The Ministry long ago.  Though I would have one major change in the law.  I'd rule strictly by the bible and would various extermination camps for those not will to obey, but I'd rarely use because as a martial artist am against violence as a means of torture or pleasure, but in extreme cases violence must instated to start a cycle of peace.

I am the prince of peace. Lord of Light mr.pace.
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warmaker
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soxfan849 : Do you think all those people who voted for Obama thought he was just not as bad as McCain?  Or do you think they voted because they thought they were bringing hope and change to the world?

Cacodemon

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Elara
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As one of the people that voted for Obama, I can tell you right now that it was more the latter... though really in my case it was more "I agree with his ideas more than McCain, and Palin is freaking crazy."

Though, from the cynic point of view, a lot of times it is a contest between the lesser of two evils. No politician is really 100% good... it's the nature of the system. You just align with the one that serves your interests best.

That said... I understand the quote. I even recognize it (George Jean Nathan, for the curious). It must also be taken in context... which in this case is rather hard since it seems impossible to find where, when, and why Nathan said it. However, considering that he died in 1958, it does give us a roughly 50 year span to look at... and it could be anything from referencing the two world wars, the Great Depression, the Korean War or the McCarthy era... and considering he was a theater critic, that one would play heavily in his field. There were a LOT of bad officials back then... a lot.

The quote does still apply to the modern day, of course, but it is always good to keep it's original meaning in mind if you can. It's a call to make your voice heard... if you do not like what your representative is doing, get out and vote them out of office and elect someone you actually want in there.

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Hoochman
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I will be voting for the 1st time. I am going to vote for who the republican will be (hopefully Santorum) against Obama. The biggest problem with voting which I noticed particularly throughout this 2012 nominating process, is that we like to vote for who ever is the most "electable", or ever gets the independents. Rather than the guy who is actually good.

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Elara
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By your hopefulness that it will be Santorum, I take it you don't like Romney or Gingrich... so are you still going to vote for one of them if they get the nomination? Doesn't that seem hypocritical?

Most electable, and who appeals to independent voters means that the majority of people would think that they are "the good one". Independents are people that don't just vote along party lines because they belong to neither of the major parties. If you don't try to get their votes, they usually vote for the other side.

Just some food for thought.

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Hoochman
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Elara Not necessarily. Going into this election I was in favor of Romney, and than with the fall of Herman Cain I supported Gingrich, and with his fall, I have gone to Rick Santorum. So whoever I vote for would be someone I have supported at one time rather than who I see as the lesser of the 2 evils. My support has been about who is more conservative when switching candidates rather than which one is electable. I believe that it is unfortunate that in the general election our only option is whoever is the least bad. When confronted with the choice in the general election, I to would vote like. I don't think it is hypocritical because when that is the only option than I think that one would have no choice. I simply think we should not put ourselves in the position of having to get someone who is the least bad. In terms of the independents, I don't think it guarantees a win for a candidate to pick up the independents. When you look at the election night, each candidate would probably get an automatic stalemate 40-45% of the vote. and whoever would get the 15-20% independent is deemed the winner(just throwing numbers around). I don't believe a candidate would automatically win because if they get the 20% of independents by scrapping their 45% base, it would still be a blowout loss. In my mind the best way to get the independent vote is not by appearing electable and therefore scrapping the party but by making your values appeal to them.

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thenumberone
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soxfan849 :
You know there are more than 2 partys.
I will just say this and hope people see i dont mean it as an insult.
America(usa), you are very strange, you get democracy and freedom and only vote for 2 partys, which for the most part, are identical. Its unbelievable. And the presidential campaign, jeeze, there election platforms are just smear campaigns, i couldnt believe it. I wouldnt vote for such scumbags.

in my end is my begining
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soxfan849
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warmaker : I think there were probably a lot of people who voted for him because they thought there would be real change. So far there really hasn't been much. I don't know if they necessarily fault Obama, or they actually realized that the president doesn't have enough power to change anything for the better by himself.

thenumberone : There are essentially two parties. And on the surface they may look the same, but they really are quite different. There will never be a drastic change based on one election, that is true. But this country has checks and balances put in place to prevent just that. Any real changes must be made gradually and over a number of different elections and votes.

But even with their differences, two parties are not enough to satisfy the needs of the voters. And at the same time, two parties is too many. People vote based on party alone far too often. If there were no parties, people would vote solely based on who they thought the best candidate for the job was. That alone would make American politics much more effective.

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Elara
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thenumberone : Honestly, I agree that it is stupid that we only really have two parties... we shouldn't have any. Then there would not be this "I'm voting for *insert name* because they are the *insert party* candidate and I am a *same party name*" mentality.

There is actually a newer group on Facebook that I joined that is a think tank for coming up with ideas to replace the political parties in a way that would improve the electoral process. So far it's a small group so there isn't many ideas, but hopefully it will grow because I really do think that a serious dialogue on this needs to happen.

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thenumberone
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Elara : i dont mind partys so much because theres so many in the uk (that are quite different) allowing good choice. i get your point though.
I think if you just voted for individuals the problem would be you'd have no clue what the parliaments collective policys would be.
Then again, republicans and democrats arent that different anyway.
Id be voting for a smaller party that had real aims.
Side note, its impossible to become a us citizen if you've ever been affiliated with a communist party. Democracy ftw.

in my end is my begining
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Elara
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thenumberone : Yeah, it's the same with joining UNIONs... any affiliation with the communists, and you can never join.

Makes me wonder what happens to all those members of the American Communist Party.

Vitreous
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admiralwilliams
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People took this completely the wrong way. I didn't want this to become a discussion of who is right and who is wrong though Obama is bringing about the demise of our country as we know it, (mr. pace I don't want to hear "Oh I like him cuz he's black and he's a democrat")
that is no reason, and some of you people are too blind to see the damage he has done, or you are uninformed or like the idea of socialism.

But the real point of this thread was to discuss the importance of voting.

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warmaker
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Elara : Americans live in a good vs. evil, us vs. them, winner vs. loser society.  We have two main parties because people can generally align themselves with groups that have their same approximate belief systems.  Imagine no parties and trying to get a majority of votes if there are seven or nine parties.  Those parties would simply join together, support each other, and grind their way to a majority.  The other parties would react by united and aligning themselves against the first group.  Then you have your two parties, though with various names.

American society loves a winner, a mano-y-mano stand-up fight between two groups.  Americans hate soccer because of the ties.  Multiple parties or non-party systems would result in a lot of ties in a majority-based republic.

Take me for example.  I believe in fiscal conservativism, social equality, LGBT rights, the 2nd amendment, Choice, and a mix of both conservative and liberal agendas.  If I faced people who had slight differences in their matrix of beliefs, little would get done.  Without two parties, we'd have very little political action.

admiralwilliams : To answer the original question, I disagree.  Bad officials are not the fault of good citizens who decide not to vote.  Voting is something people fought and died for and I always vote in an educated manner.  I weigh the candidates, do my research, and select what I feel will be best for society.  But if you have a 90% voter turn-out and no one is educated, the 10% who didn't vote may not have been able to change anything.

Voting is important.... but educated voting is more important.

Cacodemon

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Elara
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warmaker : Those are all excuses and the way that we like to say we are... but in truth, when it comes to politics, 90-99% of Americans are lazy. They go "I'm a Republican so I am voting for the Republican. End of story." No research, doesn't matter if you don't like them at all, you vote for them. And the system has grown to support that. Unless your state has open primaries, you have to vote for the party you registered for. If you chose to not chose a party, you can't vote in a closed primary. That shouldn't happen.

You say you do the research and vote for who you think is the best candidate. If the rest of the country did that, don't you think that America would be much closer to the country we claim to be? If there is a tie, you do a run-off. Happens in local elections all the time and no one complains because that is how a democratic republic is supposed to function.

More gets done in a system where people can recognize that what they have in common outweighs their differences, and you can't just go "Oh, their a Republican/Democrat, therefore I'm going to work against them because we are totally different." A two-party system discourages cooperation. And no matter how much some people might wish it, government is not sports, there is no "ha ha my side wins" in government because when you get that, the country suffers and that has been proven over and over and over again, yet no one ever listens.

---

(last edited by Elara on 02-19-12 10:02 PM)

Vitreous
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Well iv already said a 2 party system is ridiculous, wheres the choice in 'one or the other', in the uk and in scotland theres 3 partys i wouldnt vote for, 2 of which are the biggest in the uk parliament, if it was a 2 party system where would be my representation? Id be left out.
Its especialy annoying how religion comes into it in the usa with the presidents to-be talk about there faith etc, seperation of church and state mean anything to you?
I agree with elaras point, 2 partys means 0 co-operation, and it shouldnt be like a sport, if your votes dont bring a majority then the partys can form a coalition and push both agendas, far better than a 1 or the other vote.

in my end is my begining
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thing1
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admiralwilliams : This is in regards to the original post and topic...

What if everybody that is running for office are people you would rather not have in office, and you are a good citizen, hmm?

7th Place in May 2012 VCS; 7th Place in June 2012 VCS; Winner of December 2012 VCS
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admiralwilliams :   That was an incredibly callous statement admiral.  I don't like Obama because he's black nor simply because he's a democrat and besides you can't blame it all on him.  80% of the time it's congresses fault we end up in bad situations.  This all goes back to what I said about only needed one rule than a whole bunch because it would be easier that pin the blame.  On the other hand it is entirely due to party rivalry that nothing can get done.  What would you expect with the white house democrat and the senate republican.

I am the prince of peace. Lord of Light mr.pace.
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