I want to respond to what play4fun, and others were saying about Christianity,  Children of God, Grace vs works,  in the rapture thread. The thread has 69 comments, and is closed. I am not going to quote play4fun, and others, because it would take to much time and space. To better follow along, if want to, please read play4fun's and others comments in the rapture thread below.

Also this thread is also open for open discussion relating to Christianity, so if you don't want talk about what I and others are talking about, please feel free to talk about, whatever you want that is at least semi related to Christianity.

Also. when making comments, please try to use rational,reasonable,logical,analogies,comparisons,and scriptural and or other sources in context. And also please try not to just repeat yourself and say the same thing over and over again.

Now that I have covered that now for my response comment to play4fun, others:

When play4fun said that good people don't goto heaven, and that no one is good, and that only believers in Christ Grace, what he thinks are the only true Christians, are going to heaven, and that there is no created children of God,etc, he is wrong.

Here is why:

Children of God: We are all created in the image of God., so says many scriptures in Bible. Psalms 82:10: "Ye are all children of the most high" another scripture in new testament: "For as much as we are all the offspring of God".

That makes it pretty clear that we are all children of God. what that scripture meant that you quoted that says "children of wrath" means, is that there are 2 ways to be children of God. 1. we are all created children of God created in his image. 2. we become the children,sons and daughters of god in a spiritual sense. So we are all children of God, in a creation sense.

Good people: yes people are sinful in nature, because of Adam and eve.,fall of Adam, and eve,man,etc.Yes because of that the grace of Christ is needed. Yes people are imperfect,sinful, and cant make it without Christ Grace. BUT BUT that doesn't mean that people can't do GOOD things, and can't become good people doing good things thru a combination of doing good things and Christ Grace, making up the difference. So in that sense that are imperfect people with sinful natures, who are good, because they do good things. because of the spirit of Christ.,Grace of Christ.

There are people who know nothing about Christ, but yet they do "Good" things, and they are good people because they do good things, thru the spirit,or light or grace of Christ, that is given to everyone to know right from wrong.

Who makes it.. You saying that only believers will be saved is wrong. There is a principle of ACCOUNTABILITY. Jesus said that children are innocent and pure thru the light,spirit,grace of Christ. and that as such little children will go to heaven, and don't need baptism. Babies, and little tiny children don't know anything about God or Jesus, and that combined with Christ Grace is why they are saved. The same goes with adults tho. if there is a savage in say the congo,in africa, who has never heard of Christ, he is going to heaven because of his lack of accountability, and because Christ Grace. All a person can do in this life is do the best they can with what they know, and if they do that, then the Grace of Christ will save them.

So with what I said above in mind, its better that a person be Judaic, Islam, believer in God, then not at all. If a person has prayed, and if God has let them know that X,Y,Z is the right path to  go, then they should follow that, and if they do, God will take care of them thru Christ Grace.


Grace vs works. Best way to describe how the Grace of Christ works: Because of Man's sinful nature, Man falls into a big inescapable pit of sin. It is inescapable, because the walls of the pit are high and sheer. They are slippery, there is no one to help him. There is nothing he can use or do to get out. So he is trapped in the pit of sin forever.

THEN Christ comes along and drops a big enough ladder into the pit of sin, along with a set of directions, on how to use the ladder. So if the man follows those directions, and then uses the ladder correctly, he can get out of the pit of sin. BUT if Christ had not dropped the ladder, and the instruction manual for the ladder, into the pit, then the man would have never ever been able to get out of the pit of sin. The ladder is Christ's Grace. the instruction manual, is prayer, and the scriptures, and works, is the man using the ladder to get out of the pit of sin.

This example is best summed up; by "it is by Grace of Christ that we are saved, in the end, after all we can do.

play4fun's, and others, definition of  "Christianity " :He and others like him say that if a person don't believe as he does, or disagrees,etc, that they either aren't Christians, are fake, or they are wrong.

Christianity at its core definition, is anybody,or church, who has faith,belief in, Jesus Christ, as the son of God, and who believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross, and suffered in the garden of Gethsemane. to overcome physical death,and bring about the resurrection of all, and to overcome sin, and bring about the grace of Christ, to all those who will accept, use it,believe, and have faith in it.

Now within that core, there are differences in doctrines. But as long as a person believes the basic Christian core, I defined above, they are Christians.

Now there is a thing about  True Christianity, which means that a person or church, has all the correct, true doctrines, tenets,beliefs, in addition to the basic core, that Jesus, and his apostles, and his church, and the Bible back then, 2000 years ago, taught, had.

There are also things called Orthodox Christianity, and Unorthodox Christianity. Just 4fun and others are Orthodox Christians, while I and others are Unorthodox Christians.

Just because something is Orthodox, or main stream, don't make it right..

And it is insulting for you to say that me and others are not Christian, just because we are Unorthodox Christian.

I am a Christian, or at least I try and do my best to be  Christian, and to have a relationship, with God,Jesus. I am not perfect, and I don't always behave or be the good Christian. Sometimes I do good,or great, sometimes I do bad. I also believe that Jesus is my savior and redeemer, and that he died on the cross, and suffered in Gethsemane for me, and for everybody.

So just because I am a Unorthodox Christian doesn't mean I am not a Christian, when I am a Christian.

I am some what curious why the old thread was closed. I never read it perhaps you could link to it in this thread? Anyways I have a few things to add.

Paul wrote in Romans 2:14-16 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

For this I believe that anyone can go to heaven, even though I  don't believe in heaven. I am almost positive Paul is saying you just need to act good/have good morals etc. to get into heaven. I also believe this passage mostly refers to the ten commandments, as there are many parts of the "law" which gentiles without scripture could never know. I mean Eskimos couldn't have known about Jesus and that he died for our sins, so believing in Jesus isn't a requirement to get into heaven.


The last half of your post was about "True Christianity". Ask any one who claims to be a Christian and they will say they are a true Christian. I guarantee no one will claim to be a false Christian.

For the people who claim other people arn't true Chrisitians, what exactly makes them wrong and you right? I assume it is based on what sect and which practices you follow, but you should let me know which ones!

I apologize if some of this has been previously stated in the original thread, so forgive me if it has. (And you true Christians better forgive me xD!)

Wooow, my name got mentioned a lot Note to the moderators, if you think this thread is more appropriate in the Christian forum, you should move it.

Color-coded my response: red is scripture (most of it anyway), bold and upper case for emphasis, yellow is quotes from you, and white is my words.

Now my response.

Children of God
I never denied that we are all created in the image of God. I never denied that we are created by God. But being created by God is different with being "Children of God" or more specifically "people of God." You can see in the Bible that even though everyone is created by God, it clearly states that before someone is a Christian, they are NOT a child of God. If you read the verse that quote in (Ephesians 2:3)
"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and WERE by nature children of wrath, LIKE THE REST OF MANKIND."

Paul wrote to the Christians in Ephesus stating that we WERE children of wrath, just like the rest of MANKIND. He is saying that MANKIND--Everyone--were by nature Children of wrath, not Children of God. And that it is from the grace of Christ that Christians are made alive (verses 4,5).

Romans 9 specifically made the distinction of what Children of God means: "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." (Romans 9:8) So it does not simply mean someone who is created by God, but those who are promised to become Children of God. And from the beginning, we are not born Children of God. Because of sin, we are born children of the devil. Look at 1 John 3:

"The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." (1 John 3:8-10)

Since we all have sinned and have started a practice of sin, we are all born as children of the devil, which is why we need to be transformed by Christ through receiving Christ to become Children of God. That we need to be in Christ so that we may be "adopted as sons" (Ephesians 1:5), that we can call him "Abba! Father!" (Galatians 4:5), and that we become "heirs" through us being justified by Faith (Titus 3:7) All of these languages are written that we were not born with this, but that it was inherited by God through faith in Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it call a nonbeliever a "Child of God" Look at it yourself, especially in the New Testament that every single time the verse is talking about the Children of God, the letters were addressing to Christians, not nonbelievers.

As for the two scriptures that you listed:
Psalms 82:10: "Ye are all children of the most high"
Have you noticed that this Psalm is not directing towards all people? The two bigger disputes were on whether this is directing towards angels or rulers, because the description of the person of topic is someone with authority or rule, and yet would die "like mortal men." So this verse is not talking about humans and it is definitely not talking about the "Children of God".

"For as much as we are all the offspring of God"
Interestingly you did not put the citation. Even more interesting that you did not keep the context of the scripture in mind. Paul was preaching to the Athenians and used the Athenian poet Aratus’s poem “Phainomena” to go into the topic that people should not use statues or nonliving things and idols to worship towards. He used this in the context as God creating people, not as people with the title, "Children of God".

Good people
"BUT BUT that doesn't mean that people can't do GOOD things, and can't become good people doing good things thru a combination of doing good things and Christ Grace, making up the difference. So in that sense that are imperfect people with sinful natures, who are good, because they do good things. because of the spirit of Christ.,Grace of Christ."

It's your word against the Bible. It was Jesus who corrected the rich young ruler's statement by saying "Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “NO ONE IS GOOD—EXCEPT GOD ALONE." (Mark 10:18) He even stated humans to be evil compared to God: "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:11) It was the Apostle Paul who wrote that "There is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10) and he is quoting from the Psalms (Psalm 14:1; 14:3; 53:1; 53:3)

Even secular scholarship affirms that a "good person" is a virtuous person, which virtuous means "morally excellent" I doubt you can really consider yourself or anyone to be morally excellent. (From Webster Dictionary) And finally God's standard is perfection, none of us can hit that perfection, that is why the Bible says that we "fall short." That is why Jesus' grace is needed, but not in the way you described later on.

"Who makes it.. You saying that only believers will be saved is wrong."
"So with what I said above in mind, its better that a person be Judaic, Islam, believer in God, then not at all. If a person has prayed, and if God has let them know that X,Y,Z is the right path to go, then they should follow that, and if they do, God will take care of them thru Christ Grace."

I'm going to skip the part about babies and those who have not heard the gospel, because that is a different issue and there are two different views on it that does really make a person a Christian or a nonchristian, meaning it's a secondary issue. (Yes I do believe young children would go to heaven if they die due to lack of ability or lack of knowledge to choose Christ)

Back on topic....Really? You read through the Bible and it seriously said that whatever path in spirituality, whatever god that you believe is fine with God? What about the well known Bible verse? What does that say?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but WHOEVER DOES NOT BELIEVE stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." (John 3:16-18)

I even gave some emphasis there. It clearly shows the exclusivity in Jesus Christ. There are so many verses that says the same thing. You can't deny that.

Grace vs works
"This example is best summed up; by "it is by Grace of Christ that we are saved, in the end, after all we can do."

I was agree with your analogy up to this statement. (so close, yet so far) You made the same mistake earlier when you say that Jesus' Grace is to "make up the difference." Sir, we nothing to make it up with. Our salvation is fully trusting on God's grace only. Nothing that we do would earn our way to heaven. Jesus did not make up the difference, He did it all.

And the above statement you quote is from the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 25:23) and yet you want to say that you are a Christian when you quote this. This is one of the biggest reasons why Mormonism is NOT Christianity. You compare this statement to a verse in the Bible similar to what you quoted: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God— NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) and also in (Titus 3:5): "he saved us, NOT because of righteous things we had done, but because of HIS MERCY. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," This is a continued theme that Christians are saved because of faith in Jesus alone. We did nothing and can never do anything to earn it. This core idea of Christianity is what distances Christianity with Mormonism.

And this is consistent to what Christianity has been teaching all along. Even the hymns that were made. "Nothing but the blood of Jesus" "Jesus paid it all" "In Christ Alone".

play4fun's, and others, definition of "Christianity"
"He and others like him say that if a person don't believe as he does, or disagrees,etc, that they either aren't Christians, are fake, or they are wrong."

ummm....no. It doesn't matter what I believe or whether the majority of people believe, what matter is whether what we believe is true. The reason denominations can get along with each other compare to cults like Oneness Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons is because these cults are against the basis core beliefs of Christianity that make Christianity distinct from other religions. They deny the basics of the basic doctrines like who God is, how is one saved, the nature of Man, etc. and have taught contradictory to the basic Christian beliefs. Example: If I say that I'm a Christian, yet I believe that there are many gods, that does not make me Christian anymore, because Christianity is monotheistic. It's stuff like that that distinguishes what is Christian and what is not.

"Now within that core, there are differences in doctrines. But as long as a person believes the basic Christian core, I defined above, they are Christians."

Like I said before, Mormonism does not hold to the basic Christian core, which is why they are not Christians. The Bible even warns against these things. Just because someone says that he is a follower of Christ does not mean that he is one. Jesus even said "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:22-23) The Bible even talks about how there are people who proclaim a different gospel is no gospel at all (Galatians 1:3). And it makes it clear that those who don't hold to the core beliefs of Christianity are not Christian at all. The Bible speaks harshly against those who don't teach sound doctrine:

"If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing." (1 Timothy 6:3-4)

Here is verse that I'm sure Mormons would be a little heated about, but it needs to be heard, especially with how Mormonism is founded.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8)

"And it is insulting for you to say that me and others are not Christian, just because we are Unorthodox Christian"

I know, truth hurts sometimes. But it is more important to follow truth rather than suppressing it. Unorthodox is called heretical. And this is no simple title to be given, except to what is against scripture and against the basic beliefs of Christianity.

Sir, a Christian does not TRY to do their best to get to heaven, when a person puts their faith in Jesus Christ, they are justified by faith and God would deem them as righteous because of them trusting in what Jesus did on the cross. And you would be filled with the Holy Spirit and the person would change from the inside out to grow more and more like Christ, to be transformed being a godly person. The person does not try to do good, it is God's grace that causes a person to undergo sanctification. And because of this, we were able to happily be called Children of God, that we would have a personal relationship with Christ. The work does not earn your place in heaven, it's the result of God changing you.

You might as well just make this a "Is Mormonism Christian" thread. And please, check my Bible references and examine for yourself whether it is true or not. And if you want a level discussion about this, please just quote the Bible instead of quoting the Book of Mormon. Christians don't believe the Book of Mormon is scripture and it is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

smotpoker86 : remember what I told you about the problem in the Book of Galatians? The verse you quoted is addressing a similar issue, nothing to do with acting good morals in order to go to heaven. Remember to distinguish Christianity from Moralism.

play4fun : I disagree with what you said "remember what I told you about the problem in the Book of Galatians? The verse you quoted is addressing a similar issue, nothing to do with acting good morals in order to go to heaven. Remember to distinguish Christianity from Moralism."

It is talking about acting good to go to heaven. Romans 2:1-16 is talking about God's righteous judgement, or in other words god deciding whether we go to heaven or hell. I am making as much distinction between Christianity and Moralism as Paul is in that verse. I will show you what Paul wrote in the previous verse Romans 2:5-11

"But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.For God does not show favoritism."

This verse is clearly talking about morals and eternal life, and doesn't mention Jesus.  I am not sure how it can be seen any other way.

Now scripture also says (yep I borrowed it from your post ) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but WHOEVER DOES NOT BELIEVE stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." (John 3:16-18)

I am just pointing out that  both of our views are based off of scripture. There is a question I would like to ask you, how did people before Jesus' crucifixion get into heaven, or how will they be judged when judgement day comes?

"Yes I do believe young children would go to heaven if they die due to lack of ability or lack of knowledge to choose Christ"
So if you don't understand who Jesus is you get into heaven? So if we get to heaven with out Christ, what is the point of believing in Christ?
Also, lack of a comma made me think you meant they died because they didn't have knowledge of Jesus, I  was thinking "WTF" haha. Not trying to be anal about punctuation just trying to give you a good laugh.

Here is another section of Romans 2 that basically sums up my argument. Just replace "circumcision" with "belief in Jesus"

"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?" Romans 2:25-27

Belief in Jesus has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you did not believe in Jesus. So then, if those who do not believe in Jesus keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as thought they believed in Jesus?



Is Mormonism Christianity?
 
Too be honest I had no Idea mikealdh was talking about Mormonism. I am not too familiar with the Mormon religion because it makes me laugh so much when I hear about it so I don't bother reading about it. What is the Mormon book even called? The Newest Testament??

I personally wouldn't consider Mormonism to be a form of Christianity, for the same reason I don't consider Christianity to be a form of Judaism. Judaism has roots in Sumerian, Canaan, and Egyptian religion, so if you consider Mormonism to be Christian than you should also consider it to be Sumerian etc.

Althought I should also point out there has been sects of Christianity/Judaism, such as Nazarene or Essene that both follow Christ and consider themselves to be Jews. Maybe it is none of my business to classify Mormonism as not being Christian.

smotpoker86 : Sorry, I was thinking that a one or two sentence reply towards your post was good enough since I just finished a huge super reply to mike. I actually had to retype it because I was originally almost done with my post, but then my computer crashed at the wrong moment, so I had to retype that reply all over again. (sigh...)

Now that I'm back from nearly being insane from organizing and retyping, let's talk about your questions. It won't be as extensively as I would want, cuz I need to go somewhere soon, but hopefully it would be good enough to answer your question.

Now I'm glad that you are actually taking the verse in it's context, and I really have nothing to correct you on what you read about Romans 2:5-11. From what you got from that verse and the underlining that you did, it seems ok to me from what your reading and interpretation is. However, reading in context does not limit to just reading the surrounding verse. Sometimes you need to read the surrounding chapters, and even know what the overall structure of the book is to be able to interpret the verse correctly. For example, Romans 2:1 has the word "therefore," so how do we know what the "therefore" is there for (pun intended)? We go a chapter back to understand what Paul was originally talking about before coming into this verse. So let's look at the first chapter (I have extra motivation to do this now because Romans is actually my favorite book of the Bible)

To sum it up, The first chapter was: greetings to Rome, Paul wants to go to Rome, Paul not ashamed of the gospel, creation shows that God exists so people have no excuse, people who suppress that truth do sinful and unnatural things, they condone sins even though they know that it is wrong. (That was my crammed, "Spark Notes" version of Romans 1, but read it yourself to make sure)

Now the second chapter is to telling people in Rome who are hypocrites that they have no excuse from God's judgment, and that even though Jews have the law and they boast about God and how they follow God, being a hypocrite from their own teaching of how to follow the moral law makes them no different than those who sin against the law. The last verse even said that they are blaspheming God's name in front of the gentiles. Now the verse that you quoted from your first post is Paul trying to tell the Jews that just because they don't have the Jewish Laws doesn't mean that they don't know what's right or what's wrong, and that the moral law is already written in their hearts: the conscience. It serves, like what the verse says, as a witness, accusing you if you did something wrong. That is showing that Jews and Gentiles are no different in terms of God's judgment, which, like the verse that you quoted later, shows that God shows no favoritism. And that God does judge based on what we have done in our lives. Every sinful deed and thought will be revealed on judgement day. So again, you were not wrong in your perception of Romans 2 looking like a moralistic chapter, that trouble and distress will be for every human being who does evil and that this is not just to the Jews, but to us gentiles as well.

However, you need to look on to chapter 3. The first two chapters and the beginning of chapter 3 are all setting up for this part: "Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin." This is the part where it talks about Jews don't have an advantage versus the Gentiles, and it is here that gave the final point:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Romans 3:19-20)

So here, the law is not just showing what is right and what is wrong, but the law is also used to show us that we have broken it, and NO ON is declared righteous by the works of the law. So the set up here is that God does judge based on your actions and deeds and he does give eternal life for those doing good....but no one meets that standard; no one is righteous enough by themselves to have eternal life. We need to understand this part clearly till we can come to the point of the next part: "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile," (Romans 3:22)

So yeah, in context of the letter, Paul is saying that we are justified through faith in Jesus Christ, not by the work of the law. The law is used to show us that we are sinful and we can never meet up to that standard, which is why faith in Jesus Christ goes the whole way through. It is not of works, cuz if it were, we all would not be justified and none of us would be in heaven.

As for your question about those before Jesus came, that answer is actually in Romans 4, but also in Hebrews 11. It is by their faith in God that they are saved. Either way, it is still faith in God and trust in God.

You also should look up what the purpose of circumcision for the Jews, because this is why Paul is telling the hypocrites their pride of their circumcision is meaningless.

But yeah, you should really read through the entire Romans. This book is so theologically rich and it presents the gospel so well! It even addresses the issue of "If we are saved through faith in Christ, does it mean that we can just continue sinning or sin more?" So GOOD!

As for your "Mormon" section:
1. I could tell from his previous posts and his current post shows it too.
2. The last part of this section is a different issue (a nationality/ethnic issue)

P.S.: I laughed at your punctuation line. LOL

play4fun : I have no doubts that Paul believed that Jesus was a savior, as he is arguably the most influential person in early Christian beliefs and dogma. I do , however, doubt that he thinks through Jesus is the only way to become righteous.  He definitely believes Jesus will help you become righteous but no where does it say that not believing will condemn you like it says in John 3:16. At most it says that refusing to believe in Jesus will condemn you, but again if you have no knowledge of Jesus you won't be condemned. This is similar to what you said about young children dieing. They will still go to heaven because it isn't possible for them to believe in Jesus. So Jesus can't be the only way into heaven, you said so yourself.

That is basically what the original verse in Romans 2 I stated says aswell. If you lack the physical scripture or even oral variations of it, that does not mean you will go to hell.

Show me one verse where it says Jesus is the only way into heaven, and I will most likely change my mind or what the scripture says. As you know from previous debates and discussion, in no way do I consider myself a biblical expert. However, I did read all of Romans as you suggested. Also, for people who are reading this who may not all ready know, I am an atheist and don't even believe in heaven. I am arguing this debate from a theistic perspective because I don't see much room for an atheistic approach in this thread. I just think of it as a debate class where you might not believe the subject which you are defending.



The reason I chose to make an analogy out of what Paul said about circumcision is because it is similar to Jesus in a few ways. First of all,  both of them can be considered covenants from God and secondly , both of them are thought to allow you in to heaven in their respective religions. Well in Judaism, circumcision doesn't allow you into heaven, but not being circumcised makes it impossible (which is argued by Paul in that verse) to go to heaven.

Yes I do understand what circumcision means in Judaism, which is why I chose the verse for a Jesus analogy.Maybe you should look up what it means to them. Jews took it very seriously ,they even  circumcised males after they had died.  I do find it odd that God needs to look at his chosen people's penii to confirm that they are sons of abraham. Also, I find it odd that  there is no need to mark women as heirs, but this probably comes from the fact that women wern't treated as equals to men.