For all the Christians and -others- who do or don't believe in God.... I want you to try and prove God exists. Or disprove the attempts that come up.

I'm interested to see what people can come up with to prove God exists. I'm not suggesting I don't believe in God, but I think this is will produce some interesting conversation about the issue.

Okay.... GO!

There's two types of gods that I know exist, the one in religion I view as a scapegoat or fabrication. There is enough proof that Government is God or a illusion posing as god because they are very identical to what god is described as and capable of. Think of Government as reality god.

If I were to look at god from a christian perspective based on events on the bible God would be extraterrestrial. Why would god be an alien? Same reason why Jesus rose from the dead, the huge boulder got removed from his tomb and pulled a light show which only aliens have the tech to pull off such stunt. Bodies don't disappear out of nowhere and women don't get pregnaunt out of the blue. Aliens are the only ones who had the tech to pull off teleportation, illusions, and genetic experimentation at the time. There is a reason why government hides anything alien related.

Aliens are the missing links here. There is so much in space we do not know about hell we dont even know our own ocean fully. You can skip space and go directly to god because that would be cheating the system.

The bible is a designed path leading to the end of days. Someone is making it happen its not just happening out of the blue like a fairy tail. I am trying to look at who would benefit from lieing to people and I say Government is a key suspect. You can't question god right? Well you cant question government either. Why would government hide alien activity and label it as a threat to national security when they are not?

The scariest thing about god I can think of is printed on US money. It says "In God We Trust" that right there proves that there is a major lie going around, people are getting suckered into believing an entity they have never seen before. People want to know what the trinity represents? Civilians, Government, Aliens - Aliens = God, Government = Father, Civilians = Son. Welcome to reality

JigSaw : You're joking right? This would be great for a scifi or something but it's definitely not backed up other than what you think is logical. You don't even know if aliens exist!
As for what I think so far as to how God exists, I believe there is no way that the world can be just put into place. Look into the universe itself, and you'll see unexplainable wonders... the stars, blackholes, galaxies, They're very complex and still don't know for sure how the universe came to be. That being said, I think the only way that the universe can be like this is if there was a creator, a higher power, that crafted and created the entire universe. Look at the complex lifeforms on Earth: Us as humans, cells, animals, reptiles, amphibians, insects. There's no way all this could've just fallen into place. The universe is created by God, not just by accident or by coincidence.
Several well known scientists believed in a creator, Albert Einstein and Issac Newton is all I can think of at the moment, but I suppose someone would help me out on that
That's my belief.

wow, I think you both just failed at this.... =/

I said PROVE God exists.... you both just gave your opinions.

hopefully someone else can come along with a better attempt.

Unfortunately we can't prove that he does exist, but fortunately we cannot prove that he does NOT exist.

Hooch - yet you believe God exists.... why is that?

Anyone in for a little Descartes? René Descartes is the father of Modern Philosophy and he made an ontological argument about the existence of God as part of his method to prove the existence of self, existence of God, and the existence of physical objects. This is from his document Meditations.

Here is his ontological argument:
1. I have the idea in my mind of a supremely perfect being.
2. Just as I cannot conceive a triangle without the triangle having certain attributes (3 sides, 3 angles, etc.), so I cannot think of a supremely perfect being that does not have all the perfections.
3. Existence is a perfection.
4. Therefore, the supremely perfect being (God) exists.

He needs to prove God before proving physical objects because he starts off in the first chapter putting a scenario of doubting everything so that nothing can be seen as true, and then work their way from there.

"3. Existence is a perfection. "

That is the flaw in his argument in my opinion. Unless you can explain this point better I would say his argument is lacking right here.

There is no way to prove something exist. Even if you have pictures, photographs, and testimonials its all opinion. Fact is fiction, just a fabricated conclusion based on someone elses study. No way to prove something exists when denial is human nature.

JigSaw : uhm.... I could prove something exists/is true if I had pictures of it. Just because someone can refuse to accept my proof doesn't mean it's wrong. It just means they refuse to change their world view.

Opinion is not a factor in truth. Truth exists outside of viewpoint or opinion.

Well, I think for an actually standard such as perfection, there has to be something that exists that would give that sort of a standard.

Think of Plato's Theory of the Forms...Forms are non-physical realities that physical things participate in. He states that people have given many things with certain descriptions, such as "good" or "beautiful." Different people have different viewpoints of what is considered good and what is considered beautiful. The way people have the capability to make judgments show that we have some type of standard engraved in us. According to Plato, the reason we have this is because the knowledge of the Forms was already known in our immortal souls before birth. In terms of the standard of "good," we have something in our hearts that acts as a judge on us on what is right or wrong. That is the conscience. People might claim that our conscience would be subjective, but I believe that everyone understand that it's wrong to lie, wrong to steal, wrong to murder, etc. It's only a matter of whether someone listens to it, or ignoring it that would make our perception of our conscience would be dulled down. Either way, there is a certain standard that has been placed in our heart.

Other than that, looking at our world is proof that there has to be a God. When you see a building, how do you know there is a builder? You may not have see the person, heard him, talk to him, etc, but you know that a builder or a company made the building because the building is proof itself that there is a builder. When you see a painting in a museum, you know that there is someone who actually painted, because the painting is proof that there is a painter. When you look at our universe, of how amazingly designed it is, and especially how the odds of everything working out the way it does, must tell us that there is a intelligent designer.

"When you look at our universe, of how amazingly designed it is, and especially how the odds of everything working out the way it does, must tell us that there is a intelligent designer."

And I could counter with: The fact that we exist proves nothing at all. Ours is one of trillions of planets (possibly more). The chances might have been slim for life to occur and develop to the point it has, but here we are. That doesn't mean that must be a designer.

I originally wasn't going to post in here, and I'm still not going to make a big deal out of it, but I guess I'll just put in my two bits.

I look at it as a way of proving the alternatives. When I ask an atheist where the world came from, they say "the Big Bang," and this is what I input:

The Big Bang and other theories for how the universe came to be have no more proof than the God theory. Here's why: It's a basic, fundamental law of the universe and everything in it that "matter can not be created or destroyed. It can only be changed."

The problem with this is that the Big Bang theory requires that the universe started with a singularity. Depending on who you ask, this singularity was either a supercompressed dot or a supermassive object (I have no idea why there seems to be some controversy there) and that exploded and created the universe. But where did the singularity come from, and what made it explode? If matter can not be created, from where did it come, and if it was alone before the universe, what reaction caused it to explode (or "expand" depending on who you ask)

From a purely scientific point of view, in order for the universe to have been created, especially with the restriction that matter can not be created, it would have to have been from something outside our universe who is not subject to the laws thereof. Of course, this is considered bad logic by the atheist community, but they never tell me why. Besides, the alternatives are that one of the most basic facts that scientists put forth is false, and thus the scientific point of view on the creation of the world is just fiction.

Other than that, I have to say that near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences seem to be *some* evidence of an afterlife and/or a God, and sometimes incredible things (we call them "miracles") seem to happen that would hint toward divine intervention.

I think the question to "prove that God exists" is a ridiculous one, especially given that many people are reluctant to prove their atheistic beliefs, but I thought I'd humor you.

Crawldragon : I don't actually expect anyone to actually prove God exists... I simply wanted to see attempts. Although, I could have changed it from God to "A Creator" or "Divine Being" or something like that. Regardless I think we all understood what I was getting at.

I do like your mention of actual events that people have experienced or witnessed relating to near-death experiences and miracles. While it's hard to prove it to someone who wasn't there they do give evidence that there is something more going on in the world than what we see. But again, if someone wants to be skeptical in the face of the evidence then there is nothing you can do to change their mind.

geeogree : Yeah. I thought about making a point of the out-of-body experiences etc. stuff, but I've actually heard arguments countering it, so I didn't think I should waste my time. I've learned that non-believers mostly use science as a basis for their arguments, so anyone actually trying to prove that God exists should try to adapt for that, which is what I tried to do.

I would say "prove He doesn't" right here, but that would be no fun, and there are probably ways to prove that He doesn't. (I'm capitalizing the He out of respect for any viewers, I'm not from Jehovah's Witness or anything)

In short, there really is no way. Yes, we can source thousands of references in the Bible, but that's just one source. There may be some testimonies from people long dead, but they could have been planted, bribed, etc. Most of the evidence that we have is from believers, so it isn't really valid. There really isn't much evidence that He exists.

Don't get me wrong here. I am a practicing Christian, and I believe in God entirely. However, there really is no proof. That's why we have this funny little thing called Faith.

Before I begin, I will tell all of you that my bespeaking will be more towards a Christian view, so rather than just proving that a God exists, I will undertake proving that the god of Christianity indeed exists.

Firstly, I will mention proof of the existence of Jesus Christ, or more accurately, Yeshua of Nazareth. We are afforded these upcoming things:

- The Gospel According To Matthew
- The Gospel According To Mark
- The Gospel According To Luke
- The Gospel According To John
- The Acts of The Apostles
- The writ of Flavius Josephus
- The writ of Cornelius Tacitus
- The slurring of Christians to Emperor Trajan by the governor Pliny the Younger
- The slurring of Christians by the satirist Lucian
- The accusation of childishness and sorcery by the philosopher Celsus
- The writ of the historian Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus

Next, we need to look into the archaeological proof the the Holy Bible's historicity, such as:

- Hittite texts: Found in Turkey, these prove that the Hittites were not fictional
- Mesha Stele: This artifact makes references to the House of David.
- Sargon's Palace: This was found in Iraq.
- Temple of Amun: This records the campaign into Israel by Pharaoh Shishak.
- Ramses' II Temple: The field of Abram in Hebron are mentioned in here.
- Merneptah Stele: This mentions that Israel was settled in Canaan.
- Mt. Sinai: It was found, and part of it was burnt, in correlation with this bible verse:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+19:18&version=NASB

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/msv25mtntop.jpg

And now, we ought to get into some logic:

- If no god exists, what caused the collision of the two meteors, as believed of in the Big Bang Theory?
- If no god exists, what started the process of evolution?
- Wouldn't it be needed for a god to exist, regarding the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, therefore needing a eternal something to exist?

Also, we may look at the sundry fulfilled foretelling, such as:

Foretelling: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:14&version=NASB
Fulfillment: Missionaries exist all over the world.

Foretelling: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2029:15&version=NASB
Fulfillment: Most of the past 2500 years, Egypt has been conquered by Europeans, and failed to dominate Israel each time they undertook that in 1948, 1967, and 1973; Egypt is not very powerful as it once was.

Foretelling: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:14&version=NASB
Fulfillment: Sundry people, such as José Luís de Jesús Miranda and Sun Myung Moon.

Foretelling: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%203:1-5&version=NASB
Fulfillment: This is ongoing, with much greed, corrupt governments, hypocrisy, vulgarity, etc.

Foretelling: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%204:1&version=NASB
Fulfillment: Sundry people follow cults or atheism, or other false religions. Furthermore, the amount of irreligion in the United States has increased from 8% in 1990 to 15% in 2008, and there are many people who take interest in New Thought.

I would like to hear people's thoughts, I truly did not do a whole lot of research, so things may not seem the most convincing or wholesome, I will make a more professional thing on YouTube later on.

One way to dispute god doesn't exist is to look at how creation works. If something needs creation then it is an infinite cycle which repeats over and over. This means god would have needed to be created by something or someone else, which means that whatever made god also needed to have been created by something or someone else etc...

Here is another way to look at it. Someone starts a company by themselves they are the god of that company right? They create it and are the ruler of it all. But think about who made that guy in first place? His mom & dad... its a cycle that repeats in a infinite loop backwards.

1. Now space can also be disputed, we really are not sure if its infinite or not. If space is not infinite then that means there is only one creator because it comes to an end, when something comes to an end then it also has a beginning. This gives logic that one god could exist but you have to keep in mind that if his creation does die then that is it, no more creation because it came to an end.

2. However if space is infinite then that means it would be an infinite cycle of creation meaning there would be no god or infinite amounts of gods. It would work very similar to how we work, our moms and dads give birth to us then we take their spot, then we die and the children take the new place.

I can see 1 relating to god while 2 relating to big bang theory. So I think a good way to prove gods existence is by looking at those two things. The key is finding out if an end exists. I think people are going at it backwards, there really is no way to tell what started life without jumping the gun and finding the end of it. Just like when people die they find god so the only real way to find him is by finding an end somewhere whether here on earth waiting for doomsday, by dieing, or by venturing in space and figuring out if it ends or not.

We can all say for certain nothing lasts forever.... but space is probably the final solution to figuring out gods existence, cause if that does not end then there is no god its an infinite creation cycle.

Metal_25 : Those are great sources you have lined up there, but look at it from a non-believer's viewpoint. Most of the things you talk about are from the Bible, and I don't think non- believers will accept quotes from our Holy Book to prove that our God is real.

As for your historical evidence, you need to explain that in more detail. Yes, Hittite texts prove that they existed, but they do not prove that they battled with the Israelites, who were helped by God.
Mesha Stele: It may make references to the House of David, yet all it proves is that King David once ruled the throne, and his descendants. It does not prove that he was helped and led by God, once again.
Sargon's Palace: Sargon was a conquering emperor from the Assyrian Dynasty. The existence of his palace only proves that his Dynasty existed. Nothing about God at all, except that the Assyrians occasionally clashed with the Israelites.
Temple of Amun: Amun was an Egyptian god, so look at it this way. Amun had a temple dedicated to him, and we've found it. Does this automatically prove that Amun exists and should be the sole ruler of the cosmos? No.
Ramses II's Temple: Yes, the fields of Abraham are mentioned there. Lovely. For all we know, Abraham could have just been a really famous or insane sheep herder, not one in direct contact with God. This still proves nothing.
Merneptah Stele: It proves that, historically, the Israelites settled in Canaan. We already knew that. However, it does not prove that the Israelites went to Canaan because it was promised to them by God after their Exodus from Egypt.
Mt Sinai: Good. We've found a large, partially burnt chunk of rock that may or may not correspond to the Bible. The verse in question discusses a burning bush, which, made of Carbon, would have long disintegrated, had it not been a celestial sent burning bush. However, unless we have record of a bush that appeared to be subjected to fire over 3,000 years ago but still remains, this burnt chunk of rock does not help us.

Just because Missionaries exist does not mean God does. I could say that people in a hundred years will all eat cheese and brainwash everyone into eating cheese, but that does not mean that I am a holy deity. All that happened with missionaries is that a bunch of faithful people gathered to worship God. It still doesn't prove that He exists.
Egypt's failure to dominate over Israel may just be a coincidence or problem within the government. It may not be the actions of a supreme deity.
Read one point up for the next one
There will always be hypocrisy, greed, and corruption in any non- Utopian social system that arises. Any one could say that, and it would be true regardless. This still doesn't prove much.
See above one for next one, just change the points a bit, replacing "hypocrisy" with cult, etc.

Overall, you did a pretty good job gathering evidence; however, most of your evidence didn't make much sense and did not back up your point very well. I'm glad to see that you put a lot of effort into this, however.

Final note: I am not an atheist. I am a Confirmed Christian, and I believe in God entirely. I a merely looking at this argument from an Atheist or non- believer's point of view, as they are probably the people asking this question. Believers don't need to know the answer to this because, they believe, and have this funny little thing called faith.

~sakura~ : I see what you mean, and I truly thank you for giving me that constructive critcism, so that I may better my arguments in the future. I may not have proven much for Christianity, but I did show the Holy Bible to to be at least somewhat historically accurate. Also, as obvious as it is, I did rush through this, which bespeaks of why my information is not fully in detail and not truly organized the best, as I undertook hinting at when I said I would make something more professional on YouTube later on, and when I mentioned my information not being the most convincing or wholesome. But again, I see your point. I did want to add, as I didn't because I rushed through, that all of these things that I mentioned have been shown to us by Jesus, but it is up to us to accept it, and just as you said, it is faith that is needed. But I will also add that I spontaneous felt the desire to become a Christian, and am not one because of my parents. I did not understand chruch nor enjoy it when I was young, but one day, in seventh grade, I felt happiness for Jesus and wanted to read the Holy Bible. I truly believe this to be the power of the Holy Spirit, and when my father recently became a Christian again, he mentioned having a feeling of happiness and thinking that he should be a Christian, but I am sure that an Atheist would view it otherwise as soemthing else. As you had mentioned, faith is needed.

Hoochman : huh. according to you the argument is: BECAUSE.

~sakura~ : Metal_25: You two should continue that topic on my "Bible as the authoritative word of God" Thread.


Bobbynibbles : I would like to hear your argument on why God does not exist.

Bobbynibbles : No, his argument is he can't. But also, at the same time, you can't prove God doesn't exist. If you can prove, really prove, God doesn't exist, then you can disprove his argument.

Let me see. show me concrete, definable evidence that "god" exists. I want measurable proof. that is what most Atheists request.

Show me concrete definable evidence that God doesn't exist.

Hoochman : You cant prove god exists in concrete.

Here's 4 pieces of evidence to prove god doesn't exist:
- No Pictures
- No Audio
- No Video
- No physical evidence

All you got to prove god exists is testimonials in the bible which I should mention was NOT written by God.

"All you got to prove god exists is testimonials in the bible which I should mention was NOT written by God."

What does that have to do with whether or not God exists? Humans wrote down the words of the Bible yes.... but that fact doesn't preclude the idea that they could have been writing down the things God wanted them to write.

And I think I've seen a concrete God.... aren't there some in Rome somewhere? Or is that marble...

JigSaw : That isn't evidence against God, that just means we haven't found any yet.

Hoochman : That is my point, you have no evidence he exists 65 million years or however old this earth is and still no evidence except only the bible? If he is able to reveal himself to those in the bible why can't he do the same in todays world? Why make a bible when God could reveal himself any time he wants like he did to those people mentioned in the bible? Isn't that fishy to you at all?

geeogree : But its questionable whether he wanted them to write it in bible or not. They could be just saying that As far as god appearing on pancakes and marble I guess that can be considered "concrete" evidence

geeogree : I want to know why you would think that my argument that since we are well designed would not make it true that there has to be a designer.

JigSaw :

Bobbynibbles :
To be honest, it is a lot harder to prove that God does not exist than rather God does exists.

The statement "There is no God" is an absolute statement. Not only is it an absolute statement, it is also a negative absolute statement, and it is harder to prove that.

Here's an example. Let's say that I made a statement that "there is no gold in China." You need to go through all the jewelery stores, all the mines, turn every rock, etc, in order to prove your statement, which is impossible, because China is such a vast area, you would really need to look everywhere and know every place in order to prove your statement. However, if I said "there is gold in China," I don't need to look everywhere. All I have to do is to find a speck of gold in Chinese territory, and that proves my statement to be true. I don't need to have all knowledge of China to prove that.

In the same way, let's say that you have about 1% of all the knowledge in the universe (I don't know what you think of yourselves in terms of amount of knowledge, but I'd say we are all right around that fraction, probably less), do you think that you have the capability to state that there is no God, knowing that there is still 99% of knowledge that you have not encountered yet?

As for us Christians, we don't need to look everywhere to know that God exists. All we have to do is to find a little bit of evidence, and that would be enough to prove it. Not only do we have the Bible as proof of that (Please discuss this issue on the "Bible as the Authoritative Word of God" thread), but we have the creation itself, the handy work of a creator, to show that there must be a creator, and that you have no excuse.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)

JigSaw : No, we don't have evidence He exists, He wants us to believe without evidence... but a lack of physical evidence is not proof that He does not exist. It's just proof that we haven't seen Him yet .

JigSaw : Here you guy's go again trying to guess Gods reason for giving his message through the bible instead if other means. How can a human hope to understand the aspects of a deity except that which the deity wants him to understand. Oh, and why would anyone of the people 65 million years ago have been able to conduct research in search of God, considering they were low tech?

Just thought I'd stick my nose in here because somebody asked why God didn't reveal himself except through the Bible.

Jesus addressed this when the Pharisees demanded a sign in the Gospel according to Matthew, chapter 16. he said:

When it is evening ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jo'nas¹.

<sup>1 This is Jonah. He would explain it in another passage, saying "as Jo'nas was three days and three nights in the fish's belly, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Note that the italic text in that quote was added in from the original text. I point this out because sometimes these additions can change the meaning of a passage.

Anyway, people demand a sign that God exists but ignore the signs when they get them. We have seen sea shells on mountains, hinting at a global flood. This is ignored. So are eye witness accounts describing Jesus's resurrection and his appearances afterwards.

In Rome, the penalty for guards allowing a body to be stolen was death. However, the guards in charge of guarding Jesus's body were not killed. Why not? Perhaps because his body was not stolen but resurrected?

And archaeological evidence suggests that Jesus and his disciples were, in fact, in certain places at certain times performing certain actions, supporting the Bible. These are signs. Are you going to brush these off too?

I'm not saying these are entirely reliable or that there is no way sea shells could have ended up on mountains except through a global flood, again I just wanted to state my opinion just because someone asked.</sup>

there are several thing in the bible that have been proven in real life. for instance they found out a little while ago humans are made of some dirt. and a peice of noas ark was found on the mountain that the bible said it landed on or near i dont really remember.
also god created us so that we would choose to love him if we could prove he existed to every one then there wouldnt be much of a choice involved.
JigSaw : have you ever seen a million dollars?

Hoochman : If God was really powerful he could have made a video camera. But since god doesn't know the first thing about technology he uses his sheep to project and spread his word through one of the oldest forms of media known as the bible. Plus why would the people back then want to do research? They are the ones claiming they saw god with their own eyes and spoke to him. Man had to create technology on their own cause God knows technology will compromise him. With technology, you become god plain and simple.

bignatealpha : Sounds a lot like believing in Santa Claus or tooth fairy

play4fun : Your right about christians not looking around enough to believe in something, for one being raised as a christian I was fed nonsense from my family to believe in something I know doesn't exist. I find eating the skin and drinking the blood of christ a bit satanic. Nothing in the church is real is all pretend in my opinion, everything from the christs skin & blood, to the holy water, to the little donation basket that floats around in order to keep their product going. Nuns weren't too nice either they used torcher to teach people a lesson just like their symbol does (jesus being murdered on a cross).

If I were to say god exists, the only explanation for his existence is gaining back control of his sheep after he lost power of them when adam at the apple. God creates religion. God sets up kings who slaughter people and then he deposes them. God creates disasters to make his chances better at killing or rounding up the sheep. When enough sheep awake and go against god, doomsday happens and since he knows he doesn't have the power to control people anymore he will end it all. There is obviously a purpose for what was written in the bible. I doubt god is doing this for the hell of it he is doing it cause he made a mistake of allowing people free will. That is the only good reason to believe god existing.

drag00n365 : Have I seen 1 million dollars? No not up close in real life BUT it's money, and everyone knows money exists because they see it, earn it, its their whole purpose of life for crying out loud. That's like asking me if humans exist, you know the answer.

JigSaw : It sounds to me like you were raised Catholic.

There is no Christian tradition by which you are supposed to literally eat the body and blood of Christ. That's something the Catholic church made up to give priests more power. Specifically, if the priests could turn bread and wine into flesh and blood (which totally taste like bread and wine) then they gain more power over the people. It's corruption of the original message. That isn't Christian, and you're right not to believe in it.

Also, nowhere does it say anything about nuns or monks in the Bible. Holy water? How are we even supposed to get that? Humans can't make things "holy" and even if they could what's the point?

I've seen a lot of people turned away from believing in God because of their Catholic upbringing, but believe me when I say the Protestant vision of God isn't shrouded in blindness and traditions that don't mean anything. Protestants have no problem with you knowing exactly who God is or having direct contact with him. If you want to talk to God, go right ahead. You don't need a priest to do that for you.

JigSaw : Who said God doesn't know anything about technology?

Crawldragon : Who knows what I was raised as I was baptized as a child, and fed some balogi to believe in that is what matters. That is my point, its all fake. The skin, the blood, the water all fake. If people can't make things "Holy" explain why it's called "Holy Bible"? People made it not god. Talking to god is like talking to someone on a cell phone with a dead battery, no reply. And yes this was before I became a sinner

I said god doesn't know anything about technology, if he did he could have made it knowing full well of how useful it is in todays world.

JigSaw : My mother could clean my room for me, and yet she doesn't, even though it would be very helpful. Why? To teach me a skill. Same thing here. God wants us to learn things on our own, not just have Him hand stuff out to us.

Crawldragon : says "That's something the Catholic church made up to give priests more power"
Then the same thing could be said for the person who first said there was such a thing as a god.
"Hey you people, there's a magic dude in the sky who will burn you forever if you don't follow some rules.
Rules which I conveiniently have in my possession that I didn't make up just to serve my own purposes at all.
Now please give me 10 ruples so that the sky man doesnt burn you in a bad place forever"
People also use gods and mythology to explain what they cant explain at the time, like the phases of the moon.
With time that was explained, and with more time other things will be explained.

bignatealpha : If that were the case god would not have grown an apple tree just for adam to nibble on lol. He would have to grow it himself.

JigSaw : I said Christians don't need to know everything to say that God exists.

and I agree with Crawldragon about his observation. You sound like you were raised catholic, which many of their teachings are not even correct anyways. (see the catholic thread)

And yes, men wrote the Bible, but the Bible inspired by God, and used people as instruments.
Think of it like this, when you write a book, who writes it: You or the pen? Of course you are the one who writes the book. The pen is just an instrument for you to use in order to write it. IF you read what the Bible says, you can see how inspired it is, comparing through fiction or nonfiction, there has never been a book written like it. And it has God's "fingerprint" written all over it (not literal), if you see the history, the prophesy, the wisdom, and the messages. And from the thread "Bible as the Authoritative Word of God," i already showed that Bible is undisputed for it's authenticity.

DarkHyren : You could make that argument. However, the evidence I presented suggests that God was not made up (i.e., the global flood as recorded in the Bible, and evidence to suggest Jesus's body was resurrected rather than stolen). There is no evidence that a priest can turn bread into the body of Christ.

Crawldragon : Well, a record of an actual event (ie a flood) does not in itself prove anything other then that a flood happened.
Back to the con-man "Oh yeah, you know that flood we had, yeah that was this guys doing, see there were alot of people not following these rules so he killed them.
But if you come to my house every sunday and give money to this basket the sky guy will know you are good"

As far as "evidence" of a body being moved or not moved or anything, there's not really much proof one way or another anyone can say about a 2,000 odd year old corpse unless it's mummified.

Well the pen doesn't really help you with thoughts. God would be more like a ghost writer more then anything. But still, bible is not authenticated words of wisdom from god its words of wisdom from normal people.

If I wrote a phrase in the bible, it would be word of god too even though its not so there is high probability of it not being word of god.

As for Jesus being resurrected what proof is there? Only thing I know of existing is the blanket with BBQ sauce on it. The fact that there is no body found proves even more that he could not have existed at all. Or he did exist and someone tampered with his dead body.

The thing that gets me is this sounds like a staged event. Jesus set the timeline and his followers did good job of following through with it.

JigSaw : Er, no, if you did write something that got put in the Bible, it still wouldn't be God's word, and true Christians wouldn't fall for it, because it wouldn't have God's fingerprint in the words.

True christians would fall for it if I was 2000 years old when I wrote it. And what do gods finger prints look like? What words are fingerprinted by god? To me, it appears that the words are NOT fingerprinted by god but instead finger printed by the author writing their entry.

JigSaw : by the logic your using i could prove you dont exist. ive never sen or heard you. ive never even seen a picture of you therefore you dont exist. or at least thats the case if seeing is believing.

If I don't exist then why are you talking to yourself