Well God is kind of in a lose lose situation. You see, if He lets people make their own decisions, everyone asks why God let's bad things happen. Yet if He doesn't let people make their own decisions, everyone says it isn't fair for God to orchestrate our lives.
As for the question you ask, it is a difficult one to answer well. I say evil can exist because God doesn't want to force people to live for Him, or do what He wants them to. In all honesty, that wouldn't be very fair of Him. And so evil comes into existence when we misuse the power of choice and will that God gives us. I will be the first to tell you, I don't understand everything about Him or why some things happen, but that doesn't discredit Him or mean that He doesn't know what He's doing, because if we face the facts, we have to admit that we don't know everything, and we would be arrogant to think that there is no possibility of knowledge or understanding beyond what we can grasp as right or good. So yes, God can exist even though bad and evil things happen, and it doesn't mean He is unable to stop it, but that it happens for reasons previously stated in this post.

I hope this answer is sufficient and doesn't come across as overpowering or belittling.

I would respond that in a fallen world with a sinful nature and free will, bad things are bound to happen. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist. It means we don't obey him. It sounds like this goes into the question; "why does God allow bad things to happen to people?" or if he's loving, why does he allow it. It is one of those questions that would take a long explanation from the Holy Spirit to fully answer. Because all we know is that its for our benefit. Its okay that we don't get it. He's obviously has been around for eternity which is longer than we have. He knows more than we do, which means he's smarter and he has a greater understanding of things than us. He also sees what we don't. Common logic suggests that with credentials like that, he would probably do things a little differently than we would and probably in ways we don't even understand. Maybe not even see. But that's really about what you could say.

The reason why there is evil because The serpent (Satan) Attempted Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of knowledge.

Now, for the bad things...Well. People started to deceive god. Disobey him, Make lies about him.

If there's no satan, Then we wouldn't need no god. If we had no god, Satan wouldn't exist.

Now, Ur gunna say, Why did god created satan If he knew he was gunna rebel? Well, You know the story about Lucifer.

He made good and evil to test us.

So, Yeah, This sinful world isn't home. Heaven is.

Until meantime, God is giving people time to repent.

Remember, He made good and evil to test our faith!! To test if we really love him.

So yeah, I'm sorry If the things I said isn't topic related...

God bless you - Amen

DwarvenKnuckleBuster : Good post overalll.

Except for that part of God creating Satan, as I don't recall that God created Satan. Maybe a better choice of words would be better or I'm overstating your words.

Still good post.

Oldschool41 : Thanks, But, What do you mean? Satan is the personification of evil 

DwarvenKnuckleBuster : Yes you are correct that Satan is the personification of evil.

However God didn't create the devil, Lucifer became Satan by refusing to bow to man and rebelled against God. From that he was cast out and he fell from God's grace. God didn't have anything to do with Lucifer becoming the devil (one can debate that asking to bow too man that he did create the devil), Lucifer became the devil by his own accord.

This is from what I think happened, my Christian theology is rusty at best so I could be wrong.

So God is being blamed for the evil in the world huh.(There is no argument or debate in my eyes because there is no ifs ands or buts about rather God exist or not God SURELY EXIST ). God sees all things and every single thing a person does or say doesn't escape Gods' notice. The problem with this type of logic is that a person is looking at it from a temporary point of view where as God sees things from an eternal perspective. They may ask this question as if they think God is letting people get away with evil( which also includes them as well ), but that's far from truth. Lets make this very clear God hates evil. I repeat God hates evil and one day there will be judgement. God knows those who would come to Him and those who would reject Him. Even before a person is born into the world He knows ultimately rather a person will accept Him or not. One day however, a separation will take place and He will separate those that belong to Him and those who follow satans' way. Those that are His will surely have life and those that are not will surely have death. Hopefully, this answer  has provided some solutions for next time someone asks such a question.

Only humans can realy define what is evil anyway, so I think to say that god does not exist merely because of some standard we have created among us would be flawed in my opinion. Especialy since these standards are not universal among mankind. You could easyly say roses are red, violets are blue, therefore god dosent exist.

I personally believe people make their personality. So it's their choice to be "evil."
Singelli : I CALL YOU TO THE STAND! This'll be interesting to see what you think.

BluemageKyle :
"Do you believe that because Evil exists in the world, that God can't exist/isn't as omniescent, omnipotent, all-seeing, all-knowing etc."

I do not believe this at all.  God gave us a choice and we chose to sin.   God did not make us robotic slaves.

Think about it this way:  cold is the absence of all heat.  If only heat existed, we would have no concept of 'cold', and there'd be no need for a distinction between hot and cold.

Evil is the absence of good.  If only good or evil existed, the other would not be worth noting.  It is through the absence of good that we recognize the two sides. The fact that evil exists in no way insinuates that God does not.

Evil exists because people CHOOSE to be evil.  We each have our own free will, and the flesh is naturally tended towards sin and evil thought. That's why having a relationship with God is a choice, and not something we are forced into.

I probably didn't word this the best way, but my brain is fried from grading finals.  Please forgive me.

"How would you counter the argument made by someone that evil exists, therefore God must not exist?"

The best way to counter this argument is to point out that it is a logical fallacy.

smotpoker86 : Care to explain how its a logical fallacy (for those who don't know what a logical fallacy is)

Oldschool41 : A logical fallacy is in simple terms just an unreasonable argument. In this case it comes to a conclusion that can't exactly be pinpointed with the given evidence. If someone were to say "Evil (or good) exists therefore God does exist" it would be equally faulty.

Really the main problem with the argument is that it comes to an absolute conclusion. The existence of evil actions doesn't necessarily prove or disprove a God but it does allow you to come to some indefinite conclusions or possibilities.

A similar but more logically sound argument should look more like this.

Evil exists, therefore:
A) God doesn't exist and evil just happens
B) God does exist and allows evil to exist
C) God does exist and has no control over the existence of evil

*Note- This example/argument likely has other possibilities and could be expanded further. I'm just trying to show the uncertainty that is inherent.

Of course this is dependent on how "God" is defined (and probably "evil" too). If someone's particular belief was that God didn't allow evil actions to occur than the existence of evil would more likely than not disprove their God.


This was a bit longer than I expected but I hope it helps you understand what I originally meant.

Oldschool41 :
There are no conditions that say god will remove all evil so its presence dosent mean there isnt a god. You can prove many individual parts of religious texts wrong, but until you have proven the origin and invalidity of every sentence you havent definitively disproven god. Because it was written by man so the next argument would be it was human error, its been translated multiple times too so thats the next excuse.
If there was decisive proof either way everyone would be either religious or atheist.
reasoning:
1.God wants us to have free will
2.God is testing us
3.God is punishing us
4.God has forsaken us
5.God isn't real

There are many more but those are the most common ones.

As for question 2, il just refer to epicurus again, since that is my view in a nutshell.

smotpoker86 : Thank you for the explination. I just wanted to make sure that this was explained so that other Vizzed users know what your talking about.

I believe a similar logical fallacy would be "I know that I know nothing at all" if I'm correct?

thenumberone : Of course the arguement of Free Will and God is also subject to another debate. Interesting post overall.

Oldschool41 : well sine everyone is stating the case for the negative I thought I'd just say there is a case for  

Evil People = No God

GOD hates evil , GOD can not tollerate to exist where evil exists  this is the whole reason that we as Christian must keep evil out of our life and so it is true.
Evil people = No god within themselves or even
Evil World = No GOD in the world
Evil Organisation = no God in the organisation it would then only be a small "logical step to Evil = No GOD

oh and then there's the question if GOD created everything then hoe could he not of created Evil,Satan or sin?

Oldschool41 : I don't think that evil signifies that there is no god, however I do believe that if there were to be a god, it would have to be both good and evil. As described in the bible, god is all seeing and all powerful. God, in many religions, is considered to be knowing of everything. In order to be a perfect being, you would have to know all things, including good and evil. Perfection is something that can't truly exist, because in order to represent everything perfectly, one would have to also be imperfect. In order to create chaos, one must know chaos; in order to create evil, one must know evil. I'm not saying that there may not be things that we humans do not understand fully, or that some sort of god doesn't exist, but the Christian version of god is contradictory in many ways, and just doesn't seem to make any justifiable sense. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am going to give some examples of what I mean, taken from the bible.


We all know that god is displayed as good and righteous in the bible, and many people only seem to be willing to accept those passages alone. However, there are many instances where god displays such acts that would be completely unacceptable as a decent being. People seem to disregard these things, and I've never had anyone give me logical explanations for them. Traditional believers raise their children to be the same as them, often leaving children, especially the younger ones, missing the entirety of the bible. Not only that, but a person must be mature and old enough to understand what they are being taught, so that they may distinguish for themselves what they do or do not believe. Forcing a child to go to church or to only teach them certain things only builds false faith, because that faith is built upon what they have been taught, not what they discovered for themselves. This can cause confusion and identity issues later on in life. But anyway, on to the examples.

Sexism:

"But I would have you know, that
the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the
head of Christ is God." (I
Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman;
but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the
woman for the man." (I
Corinthians 11:8-9)

Murder, Genocide, and Rape:

"Behold, I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they
repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the
churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I
will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:22-23)

11:4 Moses said, “Thus says the Lord: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt, 5 and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with
all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of
Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or
woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

"All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive
them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more
because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their
roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I
will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt,
from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son
of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were
killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during
the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was
not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little
children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be
sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the
Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The
attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have
no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Slavery:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of
six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may
allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to
foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the
slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her
as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries
her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail
to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may
leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Hate and Prejudice:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to
death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham (Black slavery/segregation?)

Well, anyway, you get my point. I haven't in any way judged anyone in my own words, and the only examples that I have provided are those that are in the actual bible. You are free to read other translations of the bible, and find the same content, but worded differently.

ender44 :
"So, any smart omnipotent god would bring about the suffering, to sacrifice the few to save the  happiness and lives of the many."
It's not quite like that. God doesn't bring about suffering, otherwise he wouldn't be a pure and holy God. He may bring trials and tribulations that can be difficult, like trying to make a deadline for a huge project, but God doesn't give you anything you can't handle. We know that evil is in the world because ever since Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan, sin has been in human nature, and we tend to give into it. So it isn't that God makes others suffer, although we may face trials, it's just that we give into sin and cause our own downfall.
Sorry if this post didn't really clear things up