Originally posted by rocksome

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People who seriousy seem to think Obama is going to be some sort of saviour are severely delusional. He can't fix things as quickly as some people act like they think he will. Things have been going downhill since well before Bush was in office. Fixing it is going to take about as long or perhaps longer than it took to crumble.

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Not only that.... a lot of this crisis is the lifestyles that Americans have been living. I heard the average credit card debt was around $20,000. CREDIT CARD DEBT!!!!! That doesn't include loans for homes or cars. That is scary to me.

Now I won't lay all the blame on the average American because there is some blame to be laid on the banks and mortgage brokers that signed people up on to sub-prime loans that they knew wouldn't get paid back. But these same people getting the loans should have understood what they were getting in to before signing the documents. Ignorance is no excuse in my books.


Yay for off-topic rant! Well, sort of.

Either way I agree rocksome.... the Obamessiah isn't going to save anyone.

i myself am VERY critical of obama. I think the DNC screwed one of the best candidates the party has ever put out, Hillary Clinton, because of stupid rules and media hype. say what you want, but she was the best candidate for the job (i mean, experienced, tough, has an ex-president as her husband...)

but enough about that

my problem with obama, is that i think he isn't using the democratic majorities in the house and senate to his advantage. he could easily pass the stimulus if he wanted, but there are still too many republicans (though not all of them) who oppose the move. if he continues to let the republicans decide his moves, there will be little progress. most of what he wants to do as president are moves that they oppose, so he won't be able to come to a consensus on every bill so he should just get used to it

yea.. i agree with rocksome, i mean how can you think that a couple days in office will cure all our problems as fast as we want them to be fixed. And Obama doesn't hate white people in any way, i know he should be doing something about the disaster but he is doing all in his power to fix, attempt to fix what george bush oh so messed up. As the "great" ex-president says "HEH HEH what?"

I don't expect him to fix things in a few days.... but I'm not as brainwashed as some of the other O-bots that think the President is somehow going to "fix" America.

The big O talked about ending corruption and getting rid of lobbyists yet he added 5 to his cabinet that have lobbied within the last 2 years breaking the executive order he gave with the first week of getting into office. 2 of the people noimated for positions had back tax problems. A stimulus package (800 billion)was just passed using scare tactics that are no different than any tactic used in the past. A large portion of that bill is socialist pork that will do absolutely nothing to stimulate the economy and might actually be counter productive. Hooray for a democrat controlled Congress and Senate. Oh, and yay for a president that thinks the only institution able to save us from the recession is the federal government.

yea very true.. i mean people did go overboard with the whole "OMG OBAMA IS BLACK!?!" craze..just got out of hand and their gonna expect to do all he cannot. i just figure wait another 4 year tills till the next jacka** comes and screws this self absorbed country some more :]

so, now you're saying obama is going to screw this country over? where have you been the last 8 years?! this country can barely get any worse (hopefully)

Originally posted by ziggy

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so, now you're saying obama is going to screw this country over? where have you been the last 8 years?! this country can barely get any worse (hopefully)

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no i meant after Obama serves his term we have another election and see how much the next jackas* screws up this country some more

ziggy: the United States did pretty well under Bush. Not fantastic, but still pretty well. 8 years of "Bush Policies" did not cause the problem in the credit markets. Despite what Obama likes to tell people.

I'm just not a fan of people with socialist leanings and I think Obama leans so far he is practically in bed with Karl Marx. Sure he doesn't come right out and say it but what socialist in America does? Socialism in America uses hidden language to get their message across. Things like "redistribution of wealth" make me nervous. I'm not saying that capitalism is perfect, I'm just saying going down the road towards socialism is worse.

Do you have dual citizenship Geo? If not why are you saying 'our' president lol. Times like the coldsnap are just opportunities for men to prove themselves.

Zylo: I haven't said our president as far as I know.

[edit] Ziggy: I went to hit quote, and instead hit delete. Sorry. Not sure if I can get your post back....

crap, that was over 420 words...I'm sure there's a way

well, I can't get it back...

if anyone can it would be Davideo or one of the other admins.

I made a thread in the help... forum to see. do you at least remember what i said so you can comment on it?

not specifically enough to counter anything you said. I tend to quote what other people say and reply point by point and then get rid of the old post. I find it easier to formulate thoughts if I can compare really closely what was said before.

I remember vaguely that you disagreed with my opinion that the US did pretty well under GW. I agree there are things that happened during those 8 years that were bad but if you remove 2 wars and Katrina, there aren't many other things people can come up with that were very bad.

I wasn't a fan of Bush because he was a terrible fiscal conservative. I'm not a fan of big government. I would much rather keep my money than have the government take it all in the name of helping the country. I think government (in general) is so corrupt and inefficient that it is nearly impossible for them to properly manage anything. There is no incentive to improve or cut costs because there is always enough money in government. Budgets can always be increased.

Oh, you did also ask what is so bad about socialism? You mentioned that there are socialist countries in Europe that do just fine with more socialist forms of government and while I'm sure that is true I don't think anyone can deny that it was capitalism that propelled the US into its position as a superpower. I dislike socialism because I'm a fiscal conservative. I dislike how much money socialism spends. I also think socialism makes people dependent and not independent. Capitalism allows people to succeed or fail based on their own abilities. I like that. It doesn't "even the playing field" or any crap like that because we all know the playing field is NEVER even no matter what you do.

I dunno... hopefully this will get the discussion moving ahead some more.

I'd say two wars is pretty bad (especially because Iraq served little purpose and only hurt our economy...BADLY)

yeah, especially if the government absolutely misuses the money it takes. also, rich people don't deserve tax cuts

capitalism certainly helped us a lot, but it also is fairly corrupt in the sense of big businesses being able to do whatever the hell they want. also, a couple socialist aspects could be well implemented in the U.S.

i also said that socialism and communism are very far apart, and you seemed to call obama marxist, which is a HUGE exaggeration

• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).
• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.
• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.
• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.
• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."
• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.
• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.
• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.
• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.
• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.
• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.
• $500 million for state and local fire stations.
• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.
• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.
• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.
• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.
• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.
• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.
• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.
• $850 million for Amtrak.
• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.
• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.
• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.
• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

$19,090,000,000 - this is what Republican Senators or Congressmen say is wasteful spending in the stimulus. They're not saying these are bad things to fund. They just have no place in a package meant to stimulate the economy.


Anyway - I'm not going to argue the good or bad the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have done. We honestly can't measure the cost vs reward of that because we don't know what might have occured if the majority of fighting wasn't going on in those countries. I agree it has strained the economy. The US has gone into even more debt to fund the wars. Obama is going to outspend both of those wars with the stroke of his pen tomorrow. On a stimulus package that many think is too late to do good and might even cause more problems long term than they'll fix. The taxpayes have to earn that 1 trillion and pay off that debt eventually.

I agree with you completely on your first point but not on your second (yet). I think the government has been misusing the money it gets for decades. There are programs and organizations that are "off the books" so to speak. There are also all the pet project that get slipped into bills that don't belong there. There is also the lobbying and corruption from that. Define "rich". Do you mean earning more than 100k a year, or 250, or 500? I would say anyone earning more than 100k is doing really well but they're hardly rich. I agree the tax burden should be more heavily on the rich than on the poor but not like it is currently. Taxing the rich (or corporations) stifles investment. You want your economy to succeed you need people like the Rockefellers who have so much money it's sick. These are the people that build economies. I agree that the lower and middle class needs a break but that ties back in to government overspending and being terrible with money. Balance the budget and pay down the debt. I can't even imagine how many billions of dollars a year go to pay the interest on the debt the US carries.

Well, big business isn't free to do ANYTHING but I do understand what you mean. It does seem that way a lot of the time.

Which socialist aspects are you thinking of?

Well, if you mean pure communism the way Marx envisioned it then you're right, Obama is hardly a communist. But if you mean communism being the political structure that came from the 1917 revolution in Russia that promoted socialist economic policies then I would say he is very much a communist/socialist.

Addressing the first thing: Yeah, a lot of those won't stimulate the economy, but they (for the most part) are good causes that could help the economy in the long run. Also, 19 billion wasted is nothing compared to the amount from the bailout that was lost (at least I think so)

Well, compared to under Bill Clinton, I'd say under Bush the government misused a crap load of money. And if not misused, used for improper reasons

Obama doesn't resemble Lenin. His views are NOT AT ALL communist. Like I said, he has some socialist views, but he is not a communist by any means

This is all I really want to say.

[edit] well, the picture isn't showing up.... but if you right click and view the image (or steal the link or whatever) then you'll be able to see it

Uhhhh, really? Since out of all of those he only offered food stamps, this particular editorial cartoon doesn't mean much. Sure, getting cheap and affordable health care won't be easy, but I think it can happen.

Also, I hope that isn't all you want to say

yeah, it pretty much was.

I can argue with you all I want but you're not going to listen to me any more than I'm listening to you.

We're both set in our views about this.