I have heard it, but since the bible is taken as the word of god its weird he'd use the voice of man in every occurence, using a human coin of phrase.Incidentally, it was used because people thought the earth was flat, people that said otherwise were trodden on quite firmly for such blashphemous statements.
I am not calling christians intolerant, there are plenty of tolerant christians. I know most of them still disagree with homosexuality but they keep it to themself and dont go about yelling it, while its dissapointing that people think that way, i dont really object because they arent being a'holes.
The only thing that guy said that i could see as offensive is bull sh.
It was a strong worrding, but he never once called the bible it, he reffered to the things like slavery as bull sh, and that is.
Slavery is wrong, its demeaning, its racist, and its a blight on the earth.

He wasnt saying to hell with christianity, and in fact i dont doubt many of the people cheering in the audience were in fact christian, he was saying the view on homosexuality is wrong, and given it is commiting no actual harm to anyone i would agree.

By the quote i assume yo mean the one about the mountain?
Youre argument was that it was just a saying (4 corners/edges of the earth)
However, even if you were in space, you cant see all of a sphere.  That bit of scripture says

http://bible.cc/matthew/4-8.htm
Matthew 4:8

8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
To see every kingdom in the world you would need
1.exceptionally good eyesight or a massive telescope
2.one heck of a high vantage point
3. A flat level as you cant observe everything when its a curve.

Its not an 'attack', its an argument(as in a point of view in a debate with logical claims, not a vocal fight), and anything worth debating should be able to stand up to it, if atheists claimed christians looking for flaws was an attack then clearly atheists were uncomfortable with there beliefs.
Intolerance is persecution/treating people differently because they are in some form different to yourself, as long as the attention stays with the debate and ends thereafter there is no ntolerance, just contrasting views, that is not a bad thing, it is human nature, humans cant agree on anything.

My point would be i cant see what context the quotes i put in, would actually result in a change of the meaning.

geeogree : I don't think Savage is particularly concerned with tolerance right now. Christians insult homosexuals on a daily basis. They are depicted as immoral, wrong, mentally deranged, corrupted, et cetera. That's what Savage is getting at, the deep sense of homophobia underlying a portion of the Christian community.

When a Christian says that homosexuals are the agenst of Satan, where is the outrage? Or that homosexuals need to be put in camps to "re-educate" them, which the APA has shown to be useless and highly damaging, where is the outrage? In the United States, homosexuals are treated as second-class citizens; can you not see how Savage is unhappy with this?

Instead of admitting that there is a serious problem that exists within the Christian community, you just want to slam Savage for fighting back. It's a rather disappointing double-standard. After all the abuse homosexuals have put up with at the hands of Christians, isn't it reasonable that he be able to point out that the Bible, which is constantly used to justify homophobia, has some nasty things to say about homosexuality? Tolerance is not so important when your group is treated as though it is inferior.

geeogree : I actually agree with you about not promoting tolerance. With that said, I actually agree with what he was saying. But the thing is, he said it in a way that some took as attacking. After those students left, all that was left in that room were people who already agree with him. There is no point in giving a speech to persuade people if everyone in the audience agrees with you. His targeted audience were those kids who walked out. He could have very easily said exactly what he said in a way that was more welcoming to those students.

Traduweise : Pointing out the insults, bigotry, and overall intolerance that is going on is a method of promoting tolerance. If he wasn't concerned about tolerance towards gays, he wouldn't using a cognitive dissonance method in that room.

rcarter2 : You are mistaken. For the people who already use the Bible to justify homophobia, hearing Savage call the Bible bulls*** isn't going to make them more tolerant people. His target was not the people who left that room, it was the people who are getting bullied for being homosexual. He wants to support and validate them in who they are, and he wants to reassure them that the Bible is not justification for abuse.

Traduweise : I never said that would make them more tolerant. I said the opposite. I said that the way he said what he said was the wrong choice in having a good impact on  those students who walked out, so we are in agreeance there As for the part about his audience primary target audience being those kids who walked out, I wasn't referring to the whole speech he gave, just the specific part this video showed. I realized what the point of the whole thing was about. But he was pointing out the hypocrisy to those who might be against homosexuality on a religious ground. But I feel if you are going to point this out to those people, doing it in a more welcoming way is the way to go or else they will take it as an attack when it really isn't. 

rcarter2 : my one aknowledgement is that the way he said it sounded agresive, while you can see he only meant as in individual part, the way he emphasised (repeatedly) bull could be, and was, taken badly, which is a pity because hell if he didnt have good points.
Really i feel the rule, so long as you arent causing harm, on you go, applys to everything. Being gay dosent harm anyone so i am genuienely angered when people make there lifes hell, since my 2nd rule of thumb is live with empathy i feel like I too am being attacked (im not gay but if i was, id want the right to be, instead of laws being placed on MY body).
its additionaly funny how people complain about state interference yet have no objection when they say who can marry (and before federal law overturned it, who could sleep with who).
If there had been state laws saying what "techniques" a husband and wife could do, there would have been uproar.
Martin niemler wrote something that always stuck with me, i think it reflects the world acurately:
"First they came for the communists ,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade UNIONists ,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade UNIONist.
Then they came for the Jews ,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

To finish on the note of the walkout, if it had been reversed, me listening to a christian calling evolution bull, id have sat till the end and then confronted him when it came to questions, walking out seems pointless, if someone is offensive, you tell them. And if possible you slam them with errors you picked up on just to get some justice.

smotpoker86 : Dan Savage does not even begin to understand the big picture. He is too full of hatred. Again allow me to reiterate my original point. This man tries to use mere cultural commands from another time meant for another people to explain Gods total moral view. I also spoke that there are already verses with that purpose. That's why you don't take everything from the old testament. The verses that do speak of his moral view speak of his hatred of sin but his equal love that saves the sinner from the sin.

thenumberone : I am glad I got that summon. That was pretty refreshing to hear. I particularly liked how you brought up how it was pointless to walk out. I didn't even think of that. They should have stayed to defend their beliefs. When you just walk out like that, all it does is further make Christians as a whole appear to be unwilling to hear other ways of thinking or so intolerant. I have said before in other threads that I am a Christian man myself, and I just don't like seeing them walk out like that. 

Hoochman : "Dan Savage does not even begin to understand the big picture. He is too full of hatred. Again allow me to reiterate my original point. This man tries to use mere cultural commands from another time meant for another people to explain Gods total moral view. I also spoke that there are already verses with that purpose. That's why you don't take everything from the old testament. The verses that do speak of his moral view speak of his hatred of sin but his equal love that saves the sinner from the sin."

Having only seen this short video of him I can't really say if he's full of hatred or not. Although he may have chosen a couple words those high school students were more likely to hear from their friends rather than at a presentation, I thought the overall message he was trying to get across was rational and positive.

How does one determine which parts of the OT are just "mere cultural commands" and which are still applicable in today's culture? I often see people use quotes promoting their belief system in the same verse/chapter as other quotes that they wouldn't agree with -- The same ones that 'are meant for a different time/people/culture/(insert any other excuse)'. It would also appear to me that "God's total moral view" has changed over time as he no longer commands people be stoned to death for rather harmless actions. Was it the religious view that changed the culture or did the culture change the religious view? Considering that during the Dark Ages when a certain religious sect had a vast amount of power that era's culture was at a virtual standstill I would say it is the latter . Although it is a lot more complex than I imply, I would say that it is a fairly accurate assessment.

geeogree : "Also, if this guy is trying to promote tolerance then he is failing miserably."

Of course there is a bit of hypocrisy in his argument but why should he tolerate a belief that promotes the intolerance of himself? What do you expect him to do? Tell people that he should be stoned to death just so he is tolerating an immoral belief?

There is actually a lot of hypocrisy and intolerance through out both sides of this issue. First and foremost there are Christians that don't tolerate his kind despite changing other similar views. Than as you say he is being intolerant to that particular belief which leads to a somewhat hypocritical argument. Lastly the people that walked out are also being intolerant and hypocritical.  The way I see it one side is being intolerant to intolerance and the other side can't tolerate it. I will let you figure out which side is which.

I sure as hell hope I never have to spell that word (intolerance)again! It will forever be engraved in my mind lol.

"It's not hard to take 10-20 words out of context from nearly any book and make it look like the person who wrote it had no idea what they were talking about. That's the typical attack on Christians though. "

That's kind of funny because I occasionally see a few words taken out of context when Christians counter an argument or even if they are just showing something they believe. I would be glad to post entire verse's or larger sections of chapters if it would help portray the right context, however I and I am sure others as well would prefer to continue quoting smaller sections. If something appears to be out of context we should just point it out and explain our thoughts on the context. I don't expect people to know the entire Bible word for word, but I do expect people who claim to believe it to at least own a Bible and be able to refer to the verse that is being discussed. If the entire verse is required just ask for it.

As for the "four corners of the world" being just a saying I would think you are both right and wrong about it. It is just a saying today usually describing how vast the world is but obviously when the Bible was written the general view of the world was that it was flat. This can be seen through many different pieces of historical documents and not just the Bible. It wasn't until much much after Biblical times when a round or spherical Earth became the normal thought about the shape. You might not claim the Bible is perfect or the word of God but a lot of people do, which is why issues like this are valid arguments. From what I understand (having briefly researched this very topic) the oldest references to the shape of the Earth from Bible translate to being called a disc, or in other words round and with edges but no corners. It is likely that this 4 corners phrase came from the European influences during that time.

I'm not going to verify that because :
A) it takes a long time to research topics like that in depth, mostly because I don't have easy access to ancient manuscripts and wouldn't be able to read them if I did.
 
B) The majority of people all ready know and understand that the world isn't flat so it is practically pointless

smotpoker86 : Bashing Christianity in front of Christians who are also kids an than disguising it as anti-bullying is neither rational nor positive.
Its not that hard to find which parts of the OT are for Israel and what isn't. For one thing, even though we have still been commanded to do good works, the actual basis of salvation is grace. Also it is quite clear based on context in the old testament when the laws were written that they were meant for Israel as it was addressed to Israel. I reiterate once more, the morals don't change. What sin is does not change. The way it is judged is.

Hoochman : This is a forum for debate. Part of debate is having your core beliefs challenged.

When I was still in elementary school, I had my share of kids who attacked my beliefs and character. It wasn't pleasant, but I took that and built on it, which lead me to question and redefine my own fundamentals. You, use your Christian identity as a weapon to attack others, and so you should not be surprised when people challenge that. You can either take it and respond, or refuse to grow.

And as for Christianity being as straightforward as you seem to believe, that obviously isn't the case, or we wouldn't have so many denominations disagreeing on basic interpretations.

Traduweise : I never once in any way shape or form said anything or
alluded against having my own beliefs challenged here. I was making the
simple point that a rally in front of high school students wasn't an
appropriate place to rant and make vulgar statements, especially and
probably without any parental consent. And frankly, he is setting a very bad example to those students on how to handle bullying. Which is a lot of why I prefer not to listen activists like Dan savage, because rather than provide real solutions to bullying they simply answer it with attacks which is the exact same thing as bullying. With debating, there is nothing wrong with not engaging everyone with a different view point in a long argument. Sometimes depending upon the person such as Dan Savage, it is more constructive to not engage people like that as arguments are more crap flinging contests than real discussions. "You, use your Christian identity as a weapon to attack others, and so you should not be surprised when people challenge that." That's not a very good excuse as the Bible does not attack anyone. It speaks more about sin being unacceptable. It also informs us of our state as sinners and what becomes of it. That's not much of an attack on anyone. Now, people like Dan Savage actually go out of their way to swear and demean peoples character and beliefs. That is much worse than the Bible telling you your behavior is wrong. In fact the two are not even comparable. And lastly, The Bible is not as vague as you like to believe. You look at just because other denominations have different views on doctrine that it must not be understandable. I'm not concerned what other denominations think. I do real studying as well as with others who also study it and go where I feel led so that a real determination is made, rather than just look at how others disagree on it. 

Hoochman : You are complaining because Christianity is being attacked, both in this thread, and by Savage. If you only cared about the students, you might note that LGBT teens are bullied more in places like....high school. You love to rant about how Savage is a terrible person, but you never stop to think about why he is saying what he is saying, that people are getting badly hurt over this every day, and that perhaps they need to stand up for themselves. So yes, high school students are the perfect audience for a speech on LGBT bullying.

As for whether the Bible attacks anyone, that is questionable, but I never said that it did. I said that Christians use Christianity, and by extension the Bible, as an excuse to attack other people. And don't try and pretend that attacking homosexuality is any different from attacking homosexuals; that's like saying I have nothing against you personally, I just think you are a bad person. People don't get to choose their sexual orientations. When you attack them for it, it's just like attacking someone for being a certain race. When people are attacked, they have the right to defend themselves. If I were giving that speech, I would have worded it differently, but then I haven't been harassed for years over who am, so I can sympathise.

Oh, and don't imagine that I care what your take on other denominations is. You can go on all you like about how wrong they are, but it is undeniable that there are many interpretations of Christianity out there. No doubt you have convinced yourself that only your interpretation is the correct one, but there are plenty of more learned and experienced people who see things somewhat differently.

Traduweise : I condemn bullying. Any "Christian" who uses the Bible to justify the abuse of others is a false convert. And while the bullying of LGBT community is more prevalent, or at least gets more media attention, bullying happens elsewhere. I myself was bullied for three years at a church I used to go to. I completely understand how it feels to be bullied, and I care for those people; however, I care more so for their salvation. I do not need to hear what Savage is saying. I know that what he is saying is justification for his and other people's sins.

"don't try and pretend that attacking homosexuality is any different from attacking homosexuals; that's like saying I have nothing against you personally, I just think you are a bad person. People don't get to choose their sexual orientations. When you attack them for it, it's just like attacking someone for being a certain race."

In the Old Testament, the laws were made for Israel and needed to be specific so they knew what was sin. When Jesus came, he showed that it is the actions of the heart that matter. This goes back to the verse I posted earlier in this thread, as well as many others. Here's one example: I John 3:15 (NIV) "Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him." As for sexual orientation itself, it is a choice. No matter how convincing something may seem to be right, it is the law (God's Laws) that have the final answer. One person may rob a bank because he needs the money to pay the bills, but the circumstances do not justify the action. And just because a person may feel attracted to a certain someone else, it does not justify adultery --no matter the form it comes in.

The fact that we have dozens of denominations only further proves that there are false converts. All throughout the New Testament there are mentions of this happening. I am not going to say that I have all the answers, but the Bible being God's word is the foundation of my faith and because of that I believe God sent his only Son to die for my sins. As for other parts of the Bible, finding the truth in it is an everyday learning experience. 2 Timothy 3:16 "16 All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..."

AuraBlaze : I doubt Dan Savage cares about your take on sin and salvation. I certainly don't; it is not relevent to me as a non-Christian. The fact that you automatically dismiss other denominations as false converts tells me all I need to know about your bias on the matter.

You say sexual orientation is a choice? Prove it. When it comes to expertise, I would rather take the word of one of the world's most prestigious psychological organisations over your own. Incidentally, "God's Law" says nothing about sexual orientation being a choice, but you can test it for yourself. Try and make yourself attracted to a member of the same gender and see how far you get.

Traduweise : This is a forum for debate where everyone's "take" on the issues matters. If you don't care to hear it, than you don't have to be here.  I care very much about those students. Which is why I believe it
was so inappropriate for him to rant. Once again, dealing with bullying
with more attacking is the exact same thing. There are much better ways
to deal with bullying. Such as setting a good example or doing speaking
on real tolerance. You're right, there are Christians who try to use the Bible to justify some nasty things. But that is no excuse to take up a vendetta against the ones who don't. And its actually very possible to disapprove of someones behavior without hating the person. Do parents hate there children because they disapprove of their rebellious behavior during their teenage years. Or does a court personally hate someone it passes judgement on someone because their behavior broke the law. Certainly not. Just because I don't like someones life style, doesn't mean I hate the person. And lastly, sure there are lots of sects that place their own interpretation on the scriptures. That doesn't change that there isn't one intended meaning to it. I don't interpret it my own way. I read it and take it at what is written.

There are some important things to understand here first and consider. Firstly, whenever a Christian uses the bible to incite any sort of hatred or judgement against others, it is very wrong, and they leave themselves in danger of being judged by God.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.- Matthew 7:2

This wasn't Jesus' character at all. He came to save the world from sin and deliver captives from bondage. Remember when the Pharisees brought the adulteress woman before Jesus, and told them that she deserved to be stoned after caught in the act. And What did Jesus say: his famous words were:''Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.'' After this, the Pharisees began walking away, one by one, as their conscience convicted their hearts.

Therefore we should never judge one another, but rather encourage and uplift. Another important note to consider is that nowhere in the bible does it say that homosexual attraction is a sin. Only committing the action, which is just as bad as adultery and heterosexual fornication. Some people develop these attractions during the formative years of their childhood, and it isn't their fault. We have no right to judge or look down upon them. Jesus certainly doesn't. With that being said, just because a person has a homosexual attraction, it doesn't mean they need to act on it. The action is still wrong in God's eyes. Truthfully, people all around the globe suffer from abnormal attractions and fetishes. And if they all went out and acted out their fantasies with no restraint, society would be hurting as a whole. God can fill a person with joy and that void can be filled if they desire so. 

Finally, it was the bible that actually had the truth about a round spherical earth, far before man ever figured it out. As geeogre mentioned earlier, the ''the four corners of the earth'' was just an expression - and the following scripture from Isaiah puts that into perspective.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. - Isaiah 40:22

For my thoughts on Savage's comments: I think he did little to set in motion the sort of tolerance that is desired. However, I have empathy for the guy, because I realize that he has been hurt, and wrongfully judged, by people pretending to be Christians.

Activists constantly have to convince people about what they are preaching so you are always going to have people walking out. If you being bullied from being gay so what... how many people get bullied for being fat or color of their skin or how they look? The subject should have been about bulling in general.

Being gay is something you can often hide in the closet. If you are fat, disabled or look ugly you don't have that luxury. When people say something is "gay" its like using "jesus christ" as a cuss word. Most of the time those insults have anything to do with actually being gay or talking bad about jesus. Those who like jesus or are gay will obviously take offense to it but guess what? Straight people can get their feelings hurt for being called gay too and using jesus in a cuss word might offend those who don't believe in him. See the bigger picture here is no one is safe, everyone can be a victim so gays are no more special then anyone else in this world who get bullied and offended.

Alright here is the deal i do not care if a person is gay my best friend is gay as a matter of fact God does not hate the sinner he hates the sin but again if man wants to call the bible b.s let him even though it may draw tears to my face let him say w.e he wants about me let him call me a bible pusher I love God and you cannot stop me and doing what he told me to do

Hoochman :   You seem to be under the impression that sexual orientation is just some little habit or quirk that can be changed at will. It isn't. I've already provided a link explaining that clearly. Growing out your hair or living in a penthouse is a "lifestyle". Attraction is hardwired. If I claimed that being black is a sin but that I have nothing against black people, I would still be a racist.

And once again, you have illustrated why I don't care about your views on denominations and interpretations of the Bible. You haven't even tried to make an argument or start a debate, you've just declared that you are right and everyone else is wrong. That's just arrogance.