Vizzed Maniac :

I wouldn't be so sure that heaven is in another dimension or universe. The only thing we know about it is that it is in the heavens, or in other words somewhere in the sky. Yes, Jehovah definitely wouldn't be a human (if he exists) but I seriously doubt that "in our image" means anything other than appearance. For centuries God and angels have been portrayed in paintings and other types of artwork as having very human looking bodies. If it meant  anything other than the physical appearance we should have the mental powers that God has, and that obviously isn't the case.

There are many animals with minds and feelings like ours, but we just happen to have bigger more versatile brains. Evolution is all about change in species, and one of those possible changes is having an increase in brain size.  Species that we evolved from had brains with similar capacity to them. Homo habilis, which is roughly 2 million years old had a brain with about half the capacity of modern humans, and they are often found buried with very primitive stone tools. They also have very long arms and facial features with more resemblance to primates than ours. Look at Homo neanderthalensis, which is one of our closest relatives (many people still carry some DNA from this species) even had bigger brains than ours. http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/brain.html has a bit of information about this.


Don't worry about any hard feelings, I don't have any towards you. I quite enjoy discussing and debating about religions. However, I find most people don't like discussing things of this nature. I figure something that they believe to be true and has such an impact on their lives would be discussed all the time but most people tend to be hush hush about it. Which part of the bible says that only 144,000 people will be resurrected or go to heaven? I have heard this number tossed around before but I have no clue exactly where it comes from. The number seems ridiculously low considering how many Jews and Christians there are in the world.

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the
evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You
just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some
of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

 Consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of
there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained
away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked
on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their
thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with
the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless,
because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the
moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says
that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have
suppressed the truth about God.¹ On the other hand, for those
who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and
find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."²

If you can imagine it, then it is real. At the very least, the idea of God is real. I think of it like this. What are the chances that you are alive, making a thread, at a computer, asking this question? I'm guessing 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000^1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to 1 and that's just underestimating. I feel like there is something greater at work that we don't know about, may never know about, or just may never have the capacity to know about. 

I believe in the existence of supreme deities. The bible and many other items/thing are proof that there are deities in existence. Considering how many cultures worshiped and still do worship gods they must exist. I don't believe it's just a coincidence that nearly all the people of the world believe in deities and even if people don't believe in them such as atheists, they still acknowledge them all the time which shows that in a way even atheists know deities exist even though they don't realize it or think so

smotpoker86 : You can find it in Revelation 7:4. In The New World Translation it says, "And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" This does not mean just Jews and direct descendants of Abraham. This means anointed ones of Jehovah. And I looked at that link. That was very interesting and brought out some interesting scientific points.

death_nation : I totally agree with you. What translation are you using?

NotJon : You're right.

Diana4281 : There are many artifacts in existence that prove not only that there is a God but that people have worshiped different deities.

"There are many artifacts in existence that prove not only that there is a God..."

Imma let you finish, but Thor had one of the best artifacts of all time!

Seriously, though, if you think the fact that people have believed in a god proves that a god exists, then you being completely irrational. At one time, most people thought the earth was flat. Most people once thought that disease was god punishing them for being sinful. They thought that the sun revolved around the earth. Just because a large number of cultures came to the same, or similar, conclusions does not mean that they're not all wrong.

Mankind has a history of making stuff up and pretending like it's a well documented fact. Now you can say that it convinces you to believe that there is a god. But to say that the artifacts "prove [...] that there is a God" is more than just a slight fabrication of the truth. The artifacts prove nothing more than what a certain culture was like at a certain time.

soxfan849 : I think Diana has a point.

All ancient cultures, independent of one another, came up with their own concept of deity. It is part of human nature to be spiritual in this way; to recognize that life is a sacred creation and there is a greater force at work behind everything we perceive. Additionally, it is also human nature to explain things & pass on
information in the form of storytelling, thus we have books to go along
with religions, as well as creation myths such as the ancient Egyptian story of Nut and Geb, and the Norse god Thor.

Essentially God is a human idea that represents the connectedness of all existence, and pure love. In this sense God is real, but this idea can interpreted and seen in many different ways.

Personally I believe we are the result of evolution and 'nature' is the
force that created us; we are in every sense (chemically, molecularly, biologically, etc.) connected
with all other life and objects in existence. In a more metaphysical sense, we are "children" of the Universe; instristically interconnected with one another; part of a larger whole.
Similarly Christians believe that we are created by God the way he planned it, in his image.  They are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing, and all have validity.

The part where people get caught up are their specific customs, specific off-shoot beliefs, differences of opinion, twisting of words, and so on. Because we're humans, religion and spirituality is just like every other facet of life - Messed up and confusing for very complicated reasons. xD

Annette : I can't really find anything that you said to argue with.But it's simply not the case that the existence of those artifacts somehow prove the existence of a god or of multiple gods. That is, assuming existence to mean more than simply an idea.

soxfan849 : Yes, I understand what you mean. I don't actually think that there is are sky genies listening to my thoughts and waiting to help my team win a football game (lol), nor do artifacts prove it. All archeological evidence of religious artifacts proves, is that ancient cultures came up with a religion. Which lead me to my point that not all religious beliefs are invalid and that completely rejecting them on the basis that a literal being or person is not floating in the sky is, in my opinion, foolish. (On the other hand I do understand the concept of dogma, leading to free-thinking and questioning being discouraged and punished, which is very dangerous.)

Diana4281 :
people believing dosent mean its proof, everyone believed earth was the centre of everything and the sun was a god, that is long since proven false.
and thats a contradiction, know they exist...dont realise/ think so. Atheists dont aknowledge god in the sense you imply, they simply debate against the idea there is one, if i mention dragons it dosent mean i believe in them/ aknowledge there existance.
death_nation : by the same logic i could show a picture of me as a unicorn and say its true, and get a load of people to vouch for me, before saying that anyone who dosent believe never will, if theres a god its strange only humans spread 'his' word.
A basic rule of history, a primary source of information is a witness of the event, when debating the authenticity of a text, refering to the text is invalid as the material is not proven true, the only exception is using an excerpt to tie to real world evidence e.g claiming proof from another source that there was a great flood.
Ergo the bible, the quran etc are NOT proof as almost all of it is unvalidated, if gods face apeared in the sky and told his 'truths', now that would be pretty solid proof with no explaining it away.
Ergo i see only 2 possibilitys:
1- there is no god
2-god dosent want us to know he exists, how is any christian good if they know theyre being watched, that its a test? Are they truely good?
I go for option 1 myself, if god were real id imagine he had abused his power, and id never be able to serve him.
Heres a thought, do you guys, as christians believe in carbon dating? Do you believe science is somehow horribly wrong there? Because if not why do you think the christian churches wont allow there artefacts (and these dont even constitute a secondary source for the most part ) to be carbon dated? Is it fear that there relics might be false?is that true faith? Surely they should trust there god.
I like this thread, such a big debate =p

soxfan849 : Irrational? How? I'm not talking about some European belief(this goes to the 'earth is flat' idea) I'm talking about a worldwide belief, something that nearly EVERY human in existence believes. Now saying that this idea is irrational is just something crazy altogether. So to say there is no god is to say that nearly every person on this planet from every time period that humans existed in is wrong. Now think about it, isn't THAT irrational?

Diana4281 : You misread what I said. I never said that believing in god was irrational. I said that claiming that artifacts of other societies believing in gods proves that gods exist is irrational. And that is true. The artifacts do not prove the existence of any god.

And to claim that something is rational to believe because everyone believes it in some variation is irrational. Just because a lot of people believe something does not make it right. Nor does it make it reasonable to believe. It doesn't make it unreasonable to believe, but if that is the only reason that you believe then you are not being reasonable.

soxfan849 : My point is that with so many people believing in one type of thing it's hard to believe that so many can be wrong to others just because those few people decide to state that they don't exist when they don't even know and besides people cant just make up stuff out of nothing. They must've gotten the idea of gods from something. I see what you are saying but my idea isn't based on emotions or opinions, it's based on facts(except the belief in god since there are many stubborn people in this world that will call it an opinion when the person who states this has experienced the existence of deities through indirect ways)

Vizzed Maniac : I copied it on another site  i know that's cheating but .I just can't stand the like of atheists in this thread or any other thread loaded with them .They're like zombies spreading there viruses around.If they don't believe in God then they'll be in hell but I guess they wouldn't mind that .They'll look at it as there new home anyway.Oh well let them be.

death_nation : So in a thread titled " Is There a God?" you don't think atheists should take part. Is it safe to say in a thread about evolution you don't think Theists should take part in it too?

It is things said by theists like "they'll be in hell" and "They're like zombies spreading there viruses" that personally drives me to be active in this type of debate. As long as religions promote the mistreatment of people based on their beliefs than I never will stop talking about what I believe in or as I like to call it "spreading the good word of no God".

Have a good day Sir

smotpoker86 : *applause*
very nicely said.
death_nation :
1. As sp86 said, its a question hence open to anyone,and by your 'logic' you cant debate against atheism
2 you dont get atheist preachers so religion better suits your metaphor
3 your closing statement says it all "theyl look at it as there new home anyway"
If atheists dont believe in god, why would they believe in hell, that statement is as ridiculous as people that claim atheists are satanists, because a group of people that dont follow christianity are going to believe in things from the bible ?!? What the heck...

thenumberone : To God, all living beings are important to the Lord.He wouldn't just create everyone then have us go nowhere when we're dead like we're nothing .The way you look at it as" Once you're dead  you're gone so long baby goodbye!"We all have business here while we're alive so we don't live in vain.I don't know whats it like to be a nonbeliever of a far superior being then us.What you see is what you believe but some of the things you see are just a lies or a way to have us to believe in it.

Diana4281 : I understand the point you are trying to make, and I can't help but quote Gandhi as a response. “An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.”

The idea that a large number of people believing similar things, or even the idea of everyone believing the exact same thing, meaning that they cannot be wrong or are somehow more likely to be right is simply false. I understand why it may be hard to understand how so many people could be wrong, but your argument is the text book definition of an argumentum ad populum.

Also, no one said they made religion up out of nothing. It was likely an attempt by each civilization to explain why things happen. That's definitely not the only reasonable explanation, but no one simply made something up without some sort of inspiration. The same can be said of vampires and zombies. They are based on something real.

soxfan849 : You say people may have made up gods in order to explain things but how did they get the idea to make up supreme being that rule over everything that exists? That simply couldn't have just been thought just by a person who was trying to look for an answer for society. Also, I think  more people in human history are smarter than Gandhi and besides he got his idea from something else too. Well truth is neither of us could prove our beliefs. I believe in deities because of what I've seen and experienced in life (the opposite of what you believe gave the idea of gods to humans) I mean ,you don't have to believe in them since your life experiences don't show you that they exist. I didn't believe in deities that much when I was younger either. It's when I realized things in life that I started seeing the metaphysical forces(indirectly of course, you cant actually SEE them) 

death_nation : "some of the things you see are just lies or a way to have us believe in it.
1st, it isnt some conspiracy, 2nd, no one arguing against religion here has called what you believe lies so a return of courtisy would be nice, you dont BELIEVE some of what atheists say, thats fine, you have that right, atheists are not however some kind of underhanded conspiratory trouble makers as you seem to be implying, i cant see why you have such a hostile attitude to atheists, do you feel the same way about muslims and jews etc? The deviding line is very thin.
soxfan849 : i hadnt heard that particular quote, thats a very good and appropriate one.
Diana4281 : because they saw amasing lights in the sky and evidently decided that it was some kind of power, the fact that religions changed as our knowledge expanded is no coincidence. at one point sacrifice was practiced by almost everyone.
everyone thought the sun was a god.
if you were alive then and stated everyone believes, it must be true,then fast forward to now you see how wrong they were.
In fact almost all expired religions have been proven wrong, and have died off, what seperates the current religions from this?they all have inacuracys, they cant all be right, and if one was true you'd expect gods power would have everyone converting. As it stands islam is growing faster than christianity.