This might be the wrong forum for anything that has to do with logic... but I ask anyway.

Assuming God is all knowing (omniscient), all loving (omnibenevolent), and all powerful (omnipotent), then wouldn't that mean that God has the Know-how, the Motivation, and the Power to create a perfect Utopian Earth in which everyone would be absolutely perfectly happy? Or better yet, why make Earth at ALL if the end Result is for us to RETURN to Heaven, with God?

Sorry, I'll ask this a different way. Assuming we all started out in Heaven, with God, and our reward is to go BACK to Heaven if we're good, and God wants us to come BACK to Heaven, where we started, then why exactly are we doing this little excercise on Earth in the first place, if not for the fact that if we aren't good, we go to Hell?

How am I supposed to believe that there is any reason FOR existence other THAN to weed out the bad seeds?

I mean, I trust that God exists, but how am I supposed to believe everything that the Bible says about God? If he's all powerful, then why can't he lie about himself?

Your really not supposed to think about that stuff when you live your life. If you want an answer that bad i can give you what ive always believed.

God is, even more powerful than any could describe but that doesn't mean he doesn't like to have a little fun. His way of fun is to test us. Imagine this, all of us were living our life, in heaven. Wouldn't you, and if not you, many other people abuse this privilege? Most defiantly. What if God decided to send all of us to Earth, to earn his trust. For 1000's of years we lived a horrible form of existence. Sent his Son, Jesus. Now this is all speculation, assumption and maybe even insanity. And now, religion is every where. And though there are 100's of religions, there is only 1 god. See in games their a rules and in different areas there are different rules. What if, God allowed the world in its diversity to create their own rules. There own methods to prove their worthy of entering heaven.

This is my theory. A belief, if you will. Newly formed.

Before this, i had the theory that there was a God to govern over specific things. Much like Greek mythology. But that not to say that isnt true... God is like the CEO of "Life on Earth". In the Greek mythology theory Gods like Hades, Zeus and Poseidon are like, Area Managers.

Wow IceWave, I didnt expect such a good reply form you on such a topic. Thumbs up .

Shaddow Orunitia, think of it like this. If you made a perfect world, where EVERYONE did as you said, and everyone lived there lives in total joy and happyness, how much of a boring life would that be. Like.. It'd be like life was fully automated. Now, if God created us in his image, surely we would'nt want to run such a world, would be soooo boring.

But that leads to a bigger question, why does God let bad stuff happen... is it becaues he dosnt care (ohh gosh no..), or because the devil does such things, but isnt that mean hes not so powerful.

Best thing i can think of is to think of it like this, America, is alllll so mighty in there military. Look at them in a war. They can go in there and take down the enemy, but it dosnt matter how strong they are, they will always recieve losses. You cant be fighting a battle without losses.

And that there concludes my 2 cents.

EDIT: 100% in response to Icewave... I didn't see the other person's post, as he made it while I was replying.

But God is all seeing, right? He knows everything we're going to do, so what's the point of our trying to earn his trust? We either have it already, or we never will. Better yet... God is all powerful! He could just MAKE us trustworthy... Or even better yet, God is all loving. Why does he need our trust?

Best of all of them. Why does he need us?

God is all loving, right? He also created the heaven and the earth, and everything in all of them. You say God likes to have fun, by testing us, which is clearly fun at our expense.

God: "Go kill your son, Abraham!"
Abraham: "But... but..."
God: "Just do it."
Abraham: *about to kill son*
God: "Stop! I just wanted to see if you'd do it... Remember, Nexon employees will never ask for your username and password, so don't give them to them."

But if God made "fun" then if God is all loving, why ever would he make fun at the expense of other people?

There seems to be a hint of malevolence there. It is very different from the Parent that wants to expose their kid to evil, to teach them about the world and the way it is so that they'll be better overall... God CREATED evil.

And before you go saying "there can't be good without evil," I thought God was omnipotent. Couldn't he change that rule?

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EDIT: Response to Big Bob.

It wouldn't be boring, if God made it interesting, and for that matter, he could have very easily made us with very high attention spans. If we were made not to get bored, then we wouldn't be bored.

Why DOES bad stuff happen? Why can't we be born with these life lessons? Is God too lazy to teach them to us himself, so he has us figure it out? World without losses is impossible? That means there's something that God can't do. No no no, that doesn't work.

On the subject of God being lazy... Why did it take 6 days to make the universe? Couldn't God simply make it in an instant? And a whole day's rest? He's omnipotent, so that means that he CHOOSES to be lazy.... and mean...

The All Loving side of him seems to be implausible.

Although, I suppose that God CAN be all knowing, and all loving, if he isn't all powerful, because that means that the reason the world isn't as perfect as Heaven is, is because God CAN'T make the world as perfect as Heaven is.

The original world which god created was made perfect, man was vegatarian, animals slept with eachother, there was no death, suffering or disease, etc. But because of Adam's sin of eating the forbidden fruit, we now live in a fallen world.

If god wanted, he could make us all perfect, but we have a will and emotion that he does not affect. Every day we are being tested by god (and tempted by satan).

And God is more loving than any human you know because if you ask him for forgiveness, no matter what the sin, he will forgive you and wipe it away - that in my opinion is love.

Originally posted by Davideo7

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The original world which god created was made perfect, man was vegatarian, animals slept with eachother, there was no death, suffering or disease, etc. But because of Adam's sin of eating the forbidden fruit, we now live in a fallen world.

If god wanted, he could make us all perfect, but we have a will and emotion that he does not affect. Every day we are being tested by god (and tempted by satan).

And God is more loving than any human you know because if you ask him for forgiveness, no matter what the sin, he will forgive you and wipe it away - that in my opinion is love.

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Why permit Satan's existence? God subjects us all to horrible suffering, for what reason? The ultimate result of our good "God-Like" behavior is to return to Heaven. How am I supposed to believe that there's any point at all to this thing we call "existence" other than to cast the sinners into Hell?

Wouldn't making us all perfect make us Happy? God wants us all to return to Heaven, so why make us leave at all? God Created Man in his own image, too, didn't he? If we're not perfect, then doesn't that mean that God isn't perfect?

Maybe God created Man in his own image, but he didn't create woman in his own image, and since Eve ate the first bite of fruit, and Adam only ate the fruit to stay with Eve...

I think I get it now. God made a perfect copy of himself, but then threw a woman in the mix, and all of existence, is just to test HIMSELF...

The existence of a God is perfectly fine to me, but as the stories go, the existence of a PERFECT God can't be true, even if the Bible says it's true. All of the Bible is what God told men to write down, and frankly, God is sounding more and more like an egotistical liar.

God loves all of mankind unconditionally because of his big Fat Ego. He loves himself.
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Also, I've been taught quite specifically that sins such as Rape and Murder are "unforgivable."

Well there is the belief that Satan doesn't exist and that a Satan is merely a sin that tempts you. I don't prescribe to that theory, but it's out there.

But Satan is allowed to exist because we have free will. Could God just make us all robots? Yes, easily. However there is a very different element to God. The Jews didn't really see this side of God. And I think this reason is why people disagree that Allah and God are one in the same.

God is a very relational figure. If you'll notice the Holy Trinity, The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three somewhat separate but at the same time one. I don't know how to fully explain the concept of this. I have an idea in my head, but I can't put it into words.

If God were to make us robots then we would be just that. We wouldn't really love God because we would not have the choice not to.

While I do understand somewhat where you are coming from, as I believe that God already knows who is going to be good in life and whose not, notice I'm not saying He determines that, but he already knows. To me God knows all possibilities.

As to why we are on earth in the first place, I believe it's so we can live in the Kingdom of God. Most people think of Heaven, and that's something to look forward to. But if we think of God as merely a means to get into Heaven then we miss the most important part of life. The journey toward Heaven in and of itself can be salvation. We strive to get as close to Jesus as we can.

First off I would like to say... this is a nice thread.

Second I would like to point Shaddow Orunitia in the direction of some CS Lewis books. He says everything better than I by miles.

Thirdly here is my answer. There was a comedian I heard speaking on the television. He was saying that God must be a man because a female wouldn't have f***ed the world up so much. Then he went on to say many other pessimistic things about the world. I took issue with what he said because I don't think the world is a piece of s***. I enjoy living, I even enjoy the pain.

Point 1: You cannot buy love.
Point 2: You cannot force someone to love.
It must come from free will. From what I gather God put us on earth for his own enjoyment, and it is our opportunity to show our love for others. The coin of expression goes "God is love." If that is the case I think "love" is a good thing for "god" to be.

I think everyone is searching for the truth. I'm going to have to say that if God exists he is on a level that we can't always comprehend or understand.

So the only thing I can say is... If a rock on earth is where I want it too be... then it wouldn't be where YOU wanted it to be. Thus earth is an area where we have a chance to show compassion and love to other humans.

Not to purposely go off topic, but few of you did begin speaking of Satan.

Theory 2: Before the beginning.

Two brothers, created by existence its self. The two brothers lived side by side, yet in competition. What if, Earth is like a giant game of Monopoly. And the players are God and Satan. Yeah ok it sort of sounds like Constantine but, im not talking about demons or anything like that.

Influence.

The ultimate judgment of choice.
How?
With out influence, we couldn't make a choice. We choose the path we choose because of influence. Influence of our family, media, past choices, future choices and some times pure random influence.

EG: "Because i wanted to"

How this comes into play with Theory 1:

God isn't literally having fun at the expense of human death and pain. He is literally trying to beat his brother... we are just some pawns that fulfill the needs of a game. As david said, Adam ruined it for the rest of us (that jerk).

So before Adam, what of Satan.
Lets say that all the evil, pain, loss and death in this world comes from Satan. And the world before Adams sin was created by God (think of us as an awesome Science Fair Project). What if Satan, tempted Adam to sin, to take that apple. God punished us, and gave us the world we have now.

But that doesn't explain how evil and sin got here.
The key, Adam.
Adam is Satan's pawn.
Drenching the ages in death and hate to lead us to where we are now.
But God doesn't want us to live like this forever, so if you live your life to the best of your ability, god will reward you. If you take the devils fruit, (a pun ^^), then you will be tormented by Satan.

And that concludes my "God Vs Satan" essay... oh wait... this isn't my english class.

this is kinda referring to the originally posed question of not existing in heaven to begin with, and why earth exists - it could be because man has a ability to take for granted that which is bestowed, if you were given paradise it would be boring and you'd be very bored and incontent with it... and probably stir up trouble to quell said feelings. however assuming thats a possibility invokes the thought that prehaps we were given a utopia to begin with and mearly got out of hand - man being made in gods image thus caused improvement to the simple existance we may of had and thus resulted into today

or not, shaddow seems quite good at pointing out the paradox's and cotradictions with the whole topic, which is good i guess

Well here's a thing. Before the Earth was created, Lucifer, Gods most trustworthy angel wanted to be better than God but God wiped him out of Heaven and sent him in Hell. So that's the story of Satan.

Wow.. good first post

thanks

Bad second post sorta. Anyways. I'm siding with SK and i dont know why... He is making more sense frankly. If god is all powerful then why would he judge us to see if we are loyal... Why not just up and MAKE us loyal. *whips out scientific theory* Now this cannot be right either though. I mean the cosmic background radiation idea and like hubble's law are both crap.

Because if he just MADE us loyal, then his not giving us a choice. And choice is everything. Im sure you've all seen the matrix .

So we are running around the earth together. I want a rock to be over at my feet, but Icewave wants the same rock to be over at his feet. Thus in the world we live in now we couldn't have our own free will because its a template we share. Because it would only happen by chance that the rock would be where we both wanted it.

I think God put us on this world because its a chance to live our lives, and show each other love and compassion. Because if the world was more controlled then we wouldn't be able too. Love comes from free will.

As far as God knowing what will happen anyway and possibly preventing it... Its debatable how much of a role God takes in our lives. As far as I've seen he doesn't take an active (supernatural) role very often. And just lets the world try to sort itself out. If God does have an active role it comes through 1. The Bible, 2. Relationships with other people.

Lucifer... probably isn't worth scrutinizing, because you won't find that much. Most Christian theology about satan come from vague inferences in parts of the bible. You know.. The jewish and Islamic faiths have their own particular views Reference

Who says God doesn't have limits? Whether there are natural restrictions we couldn't understand or whether there are restrictions that he/she/it imposes upon himself/herserlf/itself for sake of keeping order.

Frankly, the God that I could believe exists isn't some kind of magical and omnipotent being, I believe that in some sense God would be a creature also - probably with its own God above it and peers as well.