Well I am a Christian and have attended churches pretty much my whole life, don't read the bible on my own much though for the wording, can only stay interested in the beginning chapters and the ending chapters. I've noticed you guys are a lot more versed in the bible and like I said all I know is what I hear from "prophets". The problem, I've heard sermons teaching how a woman is supposed to be subservient to her husband and to follow him in all views and opinions. This seems to sort of be like treating women second class. Did I pay too much attention to preacher with the wrong message or am I supposed to be telling my women how to think?

What does the bible tell us?

You have to remember the time in which the Bible was assembled. Women are the ones who give birth and thus are vulnerable for a while. Men physically tend to have a more muscular build. Thus, roles were established based on what they had to go through. Now, however, it is very different. Women have more rights, power, and can find ways to work while they are pregnant.

NotJon : well I know that, but then why do I continue to hear sermons like the one I described b4 hear at least a few like that. I tend to think the "profits" just aren't any good but I was also know I heard a few specific quotes from the Bible from these guys that blew my mind about how we should be treating or thinking of women. Was hoping for maybe some counter verses (going through a breakup and trying to keep a positive outlook on women).

fightorace : Sorry, I do not have verses on me to counter that. However, I can tell you that there are many people who continue to think in the 2,000 year old way of thinking instead of adjusting their sermons to the relevant times (like now).

Yea and I tend to think in the same manner, but when a quote from the Bible is thrown at me it also tends to make me listen.

fightorace : It's one thing to listen, it's another thing to let it take a hold of you. I myself like to treat a woman with care. A woman to me is someone who should be seen as an equal and important. Sure, there are many people that I don't like (including many women), however, that could just be said for people in general. Despite whether I like them or not, we all have our roles and we need them as much as they need us. I'm pretty sure that God would be a caring and understandable person.

NotJon : now that is advice that speaks to me, it does help. Sometimes I dwell too much.

I'm glad that my two cents helped you. In the 2nd generation Pokemon games, the protagonist's mother had something that she would say that I have never forgotten and is actually good advice. "Just do what you can." If you do all that you can, don't worry about the things that you can't.

You might consider mentioning Ruth and Esther. Both are very strong Biblical women.

I think the way a man treats a woman shows very clearly how converted he is.

Look at the way Jesus treated women. He had respect for them.... loved them and forgave them.

In my opinion men and women are equal and different at the same time. Men and women have their roles to play and generally those roles are very standard and typical. But regardless of which roles a man and woman play those roles offer balance between the two people which can't be maintained when one person has "power" over the other.

"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;"

This comes from a book that I believe to be scripture and I personally think it applies fantastically to the "power" a man should have over a woman. I can't imagine the use of this "power" would in any way be seen as a bad thing....

fightorace :
You are referring to this verse?

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:22)

Now this may sound pretty discriminative, but if you see the way this is written, this is written as a command. no "try," or "maybe," or anything to say that it is a suggestion. So wives are suppose to submit to their husbands. (don't freak out yet, read the rest of what I have to say)

You could appeal with the whole "culture at that time" argument, but it does not work here, because this was not only mentioned once: (Colossians 3:18 and 1 Peter 3:1)

Remember: ALWAYS read the context (the surrounding or related verses) to see what this verse is trying to say. I will use the Ephesians verse.

EXPLANATION OF THE VERSE:
Is this cruel to the wife? No, it's not. This is not a one-way relationship. LOOK AT THE VERSE 25. (two verses after)

"Husbands, love your wives , just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Ephesians 5:25)

Did you see that? It said to LOVE YOUR WIVES. This is a two-way relationship. Wives must SUBMIT to their husbands, but at the same time, Husbands must LOVE their wives.

But why must the wife submit? Why is this important? If you look at the chapter, it is using the model of MARRIAGE as a model of believers' relationship with GOD.

"For the HUSBAND is the head of the wife as CHRIST is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." (Ephesians 5:23-25)

The church is the "bride" and Christ is the "groom." (reference in Revelation) This is to show the model of how God is with His people, like how husband is to the wife.

This is the reason why you should read the Bible itself, don't just rely on preachers. If Christians love the Lord, they would love God's word, and because they love it, they will fine it interesting and would want to read it daily. If not, that relationship is not healthy.

So read it for yourself, and look at the context of the verse, know the background of the verse: (Ephesians 5:22-33; Colossians 3:18-25; 1 Peter 3:1-7)

This is very consistent and clear throughout.

Conclusion: Wives, submit to your husbands; husbands, love your wives, for this is a model of what God's relationship is to His people.

play4fun : I was hoping you would post here, I've read some of what you have to say about the bible b4 and was hoping for your insight, and yes that was the exact verse that was in my head. There is one problem with your comment about reading the bible though, I tend to learn through auditory processes (if I hear it I'm very likely to remember it), not so much with reading (sister has dyslexia, probably a family thing). Even if I were to read the Bible more than a couple times, what I hear will still stick with me more. You r still right though I should read it more. Sidenote: which is why I try very carefully to beware false "prophets",sometimes they r easy to see through sometimes not. But that verse I have found peace with, through yours and geeogree's posts together. The message in both posts seemed similiar to me. Comparing the way God is "married" to humanity makes it seem clear to me b/c I love my relationship with God. Seriously guys this has been haunting me since I was 10 or 11, the first time I heard it,(a preacher I actually listened to said this, like I said i'm wary of false prophets and have since I was saved at 10yr old) and a post in Ask Geeogree anything made me remember it or maybe I remembered it then posted. I was just on this board for fun, I didn't realize it might be more helpfull than I first thought. Still would like to hear other thoughts about the Bible and women though, like Ruth and Ester, (ringing that auditory bell, I have heard a story about one of them b4).

Maybe I should start a new thread for this but since it is kinda related, what was the "moral of the story" about Samson loosing his strenght when a woman cut his hair?

I do not at all think women are 2nd class in the bible. God just made the man the head of the house, the protector. God loves women just as much as he loves men.

fightorace : well this is where technology can come to play. If you have a hard time reading things, then "listen" to the Bible. I know that Bible Gateway has a function where you can listen to an audio reading of the Bible. You can also try CDs that have the Bible read to you, but that would cost money, so Bible Gateway is an EXCELLENT resource. It's ok if you can't read it, you can do other things to get a hold of what is in the Bible. The main point is that we should always dwell in the Word everyday. I have a hard time memorizing verses. That's just me, but as you read your Bible more often, you would have them hidden in your heart, even when you don't try to memorize them, or maybe if there are verse that are meaningful to you, and it has been in your heart.

The point is to do what you need to do to get a hold of God's Word, and get it daily. The Bible can be clear about many things, it is just a matter of us keep it in our hearts.

Also, I hope what I wrote about the verse helps.

fightorace : It wasn't that a woman cut Samson's hair, it was that his hair was cut at all. Samson was supposed to be sanctified from birth as a Nazirite. His mother was given instructions that she (and the child) were to abstain from alcohol completely, and the child was never to cut or shave his hair. Because he broke that particular restriction, he lost his strength. When he rededicated himself (symbolized by allowing his hair to grow while he was imprisoned, and by his words in the temple), his strength returned.

play4fun : Sure enough, never thought about the audio version of the Bible, good freakin idea.

Oniya : yea, I know it was the fact that his hair was cut that made him lose his strenght, but didn't a woman "spy" or something deceive him into getting it cut? Though I believe I've found the "moral" I was looking for on my own except maybe clear up what "sanctified from birth as a Nazirite" Nazirite being the term I'm not familiar with.

There were two women referred to in the story of Samson: One was a Philistine woman he wanted to marry, who was threatened with having her house and her family's house burned down if she did not get the answer to a riddle from him(Judges 14). The other was Delilah (Judges 16), who was also approached by a group of Philistines - this time with 1100 silver coins each - to discover the secret to his strength.

Now, it's possible to see this as saying that the women were weak/evil/corrupt, what-have-you, or that the Philistine men were attacking Samson in the one way that they could - with guile and deceit. Since the story of Samson as a whole is about divine justice against the Philistines (Judges 14:4), I'm inclined to believe that the depiction relates to the Philistines as a whole, rather than women.

Well of course if its your own wife she should look after you.Not like a slave you know like if shes the house wife and the man works all day and provides all the items for a good life then when hes at home he should be treated with respect and admiration not only by his wife but also the others he cares for.And that does mean cleaning up after him, giving up the remote,cooking his meals,and his word is the last word in all matters.,But mom should have most of the pull when it comes to the kids.But thats just me im old fashioned like that.

gameface138 : yes that is similiar to my opinions, things r changing though with both parents working most of the time.

Oniya : would have replied earlier, but been warned bout sandwhich posting enough so I waited. To say that I don't believe the Samson story was to show weakness or deceit within women. I took it more as a listen to God "moral" cuz he means what he says.

Genesis 2:24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

To me this sounds like Men and Women were initially equal.

Genesis 3:16, Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Men rule over women because of what Eve did. Women have been punished to give birth or at least feel great pain during birth. It was a women who took the fruit, not man.