Gold2 : she was not being rude about it. You, on the other hand, are spamming this thread. To add the fact that it is against the rules on this board, the phrases that you used are of insulting intentions with no reasonable backing of reason. Please act more mature and more Christianlike.

Resanub : I wrote from my post on this thread that there are some Catholics that are Christians while others are devoted to the teachings of the Catholic Church, which some of the teachings are unbiblical. I understand there are Catholics who do have pictures for memory of them, but what about those who pray to the saints. Is that official catholic teaching? If it is not, why are there Catholics who says that they do this?

play4fun : Im not even SPAMMING AND I NEVER WILL!

Gold2 : Your post had nothing to do with the thread and instead you just attack someone for something that she didnt do. Why don't you get back on topic and tell us what you think of the topic at hand.

play4fun : i think that catolics go to heaven.






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I don't think it matters if you are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, any other sect of Christianity or Non-Religious Christian. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. If you accept Jesus Christ into your life, Believe that He died for your sins and try your best to act as Jesus would, then yes you will go to Heaven. It has nothing to do with being Catholic or not.

trouble982 : The question now comes down to whether Catholicism (at least what Catholicism believes now) is part of the "sect" of Christianity or not. The question is whether the beliefs contradict the primary (or "fundamental", "nonnegotiable", or "defining") beliefs of Christianity. What differs between different denominations is that their differences are secondary, or non-essential issues, like baptism, how to do church, end-times theology, etc.

My argument is that what Catholicism believes, which is "infused righteousness," is a violation of the primary issue of how a person gets saved. Because of this specific belief, other unbiblical beliefs follow, like purgatory, prayer to the saints, indulgences, etc. The belief is that salvation relies on both belief in Jesus Christ AND good works, which is why the Reformation happened, and the battle cry of the reformation were the 5 solas, which included "Sola gracia" and "Sola fide" which means "Grace alone" and "Faith alone," which is what salvation hinges on. We don't do anything to contribute to salvation.

play4fun : I'll refer you to the book of James. James 2:14-26 to be exact

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

trouble982 : Many misunderstand this portion of scripture and immediately point at the words "faith without deeds is dead". However, you should realize that James was writing to Christians though this letter. That is why he said "my brothers and sisters." This means that they are ALREADY saved. And then look at who James is talking about: "someone CLAIMS to have faith but no deeds." He is referring to people who say they are followers of Christ, yet they don't have deeds to back it up. James gave a great analogy of someone who says "keep warm and well fed" yet does nothing to support their physical needs. If that would happen to you, you would doubt if he meant his blessing.

Basically, James is talking to people who SAY they trust in Christ, yet they don't show it. Demons believe there is one God, but why would they go to hell? because they rebelled against God, and do not follow and surrender to Him, which their actions show their rebellion. This shows that just because people who call themselves "Christians" does not mean that they are Christians.

Here he quoted Rahab and Abraham and said that they were considered righteous for what he did. With that, I refer you to Hebrews 11, which talks about Abraham again, along with other followers of God. Look what it says here. It says that Abraham and all of those who did these were doing it BY FAITH. They did not do it in contributing to their fate of salvation, but they already HAD faith, which is the REASON they did what God commanded them to do.

This is why Jesus said that "good tree will not bear bad fruit, and bad tree will not bear good fruit" and adds that you will KNOW them BY THEIR FRUIT. He did not say, "you will be SAVED THROUGH YOUR FRUIT" but he said you will "KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT." A Christian will have a clear indicator that God is working through him, because of their "Good fruit."

In conclusion, all of scripture, including what you quoted, show that your works and fruit are possible INDICATORS that you are a follower of Christ, but it doesn't contribute to salvation itself. Good works and fruit to glorify God is the RESULT of salvation, not the CAUSE of salvation. Salvation is as of what the book of Galatians and Ephesians proclaim that it is by faith that we are saved, and not of works: "know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." (Galatians 2:16); "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This is why righteousness is not "INFUSED" but "INPUTED," which means that righteousness was from God and was inputed in those who are followers of Christ.

play4fun : If you have ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, then you would know that what you are claiming and what Catholics actually believe are two different things. Catholics don't actually believe you have to do good works to be saved. They believe what is said in James, that if you ARE saved, then you will show Christ's love through your works. They just reject the notion that all you have to do is say 1 sinner's prayer and you are saved for the rest of your life, and all you have to do is sit on your couch and watch tv. Once you are save, you are supposed to act Christ-like and show the love of Christ, and the best way to do that is through good works.

If a catholic can affirm this passage and believes it in their heart, then they (according to the Bible) will go to Heaven: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." - John 3:16.

In other words, do you agree with this statement and believe it in your heart?: "I am a sinner and I have sinned against God. Jesus is the Lord, the Son of God and God in the flesh. He died for my sins so that I could have forgiveness. He is my God, my only God and my only passage to salvation."

If you agree and you believe it, then you shall to to Heaven.

What happens when we go to Heaven? Well, I believe we are judged. And here, Satan gives account of all of our sins. We will have no defense of our own. The only defense will be to call upon Jesus' promise, that believing in his sacrifice we are entitled to the forgiveness he offers. If we do not know Jesus, or who he is, or what he has done, we will not be able to call upon that promise. That is why it is so important that we hear the Good News.

trouble982 : No, I have not read its entirety, and it would be nice for you to quote sections of that to show that my claim is wrong.

"They just reject the notion that all you have to do is say 1 sinner's prayer and you are saved for the rest of your life"

No real Christian thinks that they are "good to go" because they once "prayed the prayer." However, if you are saved, you are saved for the rest of your life. If you are His, God won't lose you.

"Once you are save, you are supposed to act Christ-like and show the love of Christ, and the best way to do that is through good works."

I don't know if you worded it the way you wanted, but from they way this sentence is written, that is exactly what I argue against. No Christian is "suppose" to do anything to maintain salvation, they WILL act Christ-like and show the love of Christ. The change that a person undergoes from an enemy of God to a Child of God is because God made that change.

The main point is that salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works. Works are results of salvation and no merit or work is a factor, a contribution, or a requirement for salvation. In other words, if you are saved, you will have good fruit and are progressively sanctifying in God's grace. Do not mix justification and sanctification, for when someone is saved, that person will be justified through faith. At that point, one will be "viewed as sanctified in God's eyes due to Christ" and in the same time "undergo sanctification in real life" through God's grace. Good works would have nothing to do with salvation, but it is evidence and testimony that one is saved.

My question would be that if the Catechism of the Catholic Church believes in what I just wrote, why would there be beliefs of purgatory and indulgences, since these contribute to the idea that works of something to do with their salvation or entrance to heaven?

We aren't in a position to judge who has accepted Jesus in their hearts and who has simply read a prayer out loud in the hopes that it will save them. As the poster above said, if it was a genuine work of God then it doesn't matter how bad they turn out to be (believe me, many Christians can go astray), there is always the hope that they will repent and come back to God. It's always what's in the heart, not on the outside that matters. We will never know sometimes.

play4fun : "...for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that there is, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, the work of each one will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only through fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15


If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge will turn you over to the constable, and the constable throw you in into prison. I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." Luke 12:58-59

This is where Catholics get their belief of Purgatory from.

While most Protestant religions believe the 2nd passage only has to do with the earthly life, Catholics believe there could be a temporal meaning to the text.

I can tell you I am currently arguing this from a learning standpoint myself. I was raised Catholic, but currently I attend a Congregational Church. I do not yet know my own opinion on Purgatory. This discussion is helping me quite a bit .

trouble982 : I believe that 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is a reference to teachers of the Word and what we do with the knowledge of Jesus. If the foundation is Jesus Christ, and the works of teachers of Christ can be compared to different materials, then only those which have any real substance can withstand the "fire". And as we know, the "fire" of the Holy Spirit is a spiritual fire. As we call the wages of sin "death," then surely the wages of the Word will be "life." Not rewards in Heaven or any of that jazz, but in spreading of God's grace. My take. Also, I think that if all sins are punishable by eternal separation from God, then no amount of temporary punishment after death would account for them. Only the foundation, Jesus Christ, can redeem us. It would seem illogical to me for Jesus to take upon himself all our sins, only to see us suffer temporarily to be "cleansed" from that which he has supposedly washed us free of with his blood.

Middlemoor : Well like I said, I'm in this with the mindset that I am learning while I am doing research myself. I was raised Catholic until I was 16, when I "officially" became an adult in the Catholic Church and was allowed to make my own decisions. My first and only decision was to attend a new Church. I started questioning both Purgatory and the Hail Mary when I was 12, and I stopped saying the Hail Mary when I was 13 without anybody else knowing. But I've always held the belief that no matter what religion you are, as long as you accept that Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior, you accept him into your life and heart and you try your best to act Christ-like...then you will be saved.

trouble982 : "But I've always held the belief that no matter what religion you are, as long as you accept that Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior, you accept him into your life and heart and you try your best to act Christ-like...then you will be saved."

I tend to agree, but there are some considerations. Do they understand that Jesus Christ is THE Lord? Do they understand that He is THE Savior? Do they understand that acting-Christlike is for THEIR benefit and is separate from the issue of their salvation? Questions like these need to be asked. There are certain religions that do recognize Jesus as -a- Lord and -a- Savior, but they don't consider Him the only one. Etc.

Thank you everyone for the advice and im sorry if what i said offended people because i think something that i said i accidentally said wrong :/. God bless you

Ignoring all but the first post, just stating that now.

Catholicism is the oldest form of Christianity. Therefore when your Protestant (read: non-Catholic Christian) friends try to tell you that you won't get into Heaven because you are Catholic they are either lying to you or so ignorant that they shame their religion.

I think it's how you live your life that determines whether you go to heaven or not. If you live your life doing what you think or believe is right then you have nothing to worry about. Like death mistakes are a certainty and telling someone they would not go to heaven happens to be one of them.

Elara : I don't think anyone is denying that. However, it comes down to the question of whether the teachings of the Catholic church currently are teaching things that are unorthodox, unbiblical, or straying away from the teachings of the Bible


TheOmegaDragon : There are some Catholics who believe that (even though this is not even Catholic doctrine) and I can tell you for sure that if they do believe in that, they would not go to heaven. The statement that you give itself doesn't make sense. "If you live your life doing what you think or believe is right"