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Here we go...Piracy and file sharing

 

11-17-14 02:33 AM
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Ok, So I seriously doubt I am the first to bring up this topic on Vizzed, but I haven't seen it discussed since I have been here.
Plus, there is no open threads on the subject unless I am just horribly unobservant (a distinct possibility).
If for some reason this is just a topic we don't discuss on this site (some sites are iffy about piracy discussions I know)
Then please let me know.

--------------------------------------

Now, I have quite a bit to say on the subject, and I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle of the argument.
I could go on about my viewpoints, but I wanna let you guys start, and I'll kick off from there.
Ask questions, and share my reasons for disagreeing, or agreeing, whichever is the case.

So, my starting question for you.
Is online piracy morally wrong, either partially or completely?
If partially, where is the line? At what point does it become stealing?
Do you ever download things you haven't paid for? If so why? If not....Why?
Now by morally wrong, I mean to take legality out of the equation for this discussion.
I'm asking if you think it's wrong beyond the fact that it's breaking the law.
Ok, So I seriously doubt I am the first to bring up this topic on Vizzed, but I haven't seen it discussed since I have been here.
Plus, there is no open threads on the subject unless I am just horribly unobservant (a distinct possibility).
If for some reason this is just a topic we don't discuss on this site (some sites are iffy about piracy discussions I know)
Then please let me know.

--------------------------------------

Now, I have quite a bit to say on the subject, and I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle of the argument.
I could go on about my viewpoints, but I wanna let you guys start, and I'll kick off from there.
Ask questions, and share my reasons for disagreeing, or agreeing, whichever is the case.

So, my starting question for you.
Is online piracy morally wrong, either partially or completely?
If partially, where is the line? At what point does it become stealing?
Do you ever download things you haven't paid for? If so why? If not....Why?
Now by morally wrong, I mean to take legality out of the equation for this discussion.
I'm asking if you think it's wrong beyond the fact that it's breaking the law.
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11-17-14 02:43 AM
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It should be fine as long as it's kept peaceful and in debate, not sure on the rules concerning it though.
It should be fine as long as it's kept peaceful and in debate, not sure on the rules concerning it though.
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11-17-14 02:44 AM
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One of the biggest arguments that I hear these days is "They make enough money anyway, I'm not actually hurting them by downloading the music for free. It saves me $10, and they're so rich that it doesn't matter anyway". Now, personally, I disagree. I'm a firm believer that this is a form of stealing. Have I done it before? Yes, actually. However, I got to the point where I realized that I was stealing from these music artists, and haven't pirated anything since.

To answer your questions in the order they're given...
Yes, I believe online piracy is completely wrong. The creators of the entertainment you're pirating have dedicated a ton of time into the music, movie, or similar entertainment. In response, they ask for a set price. That's their right, their decision. We should either pay the $10, or simply be content to use Pandora or whatever.

I have, to my regret. Simply put, I was quite broke. I was listening to some music, and was like 'well, why not? It's just a couple songs, and a couple dollars won't hurt them...'. However, it is stealing, and regardless of dollar amount stealing is wrong. You'd get mad if someone stole your cheeseburger right after you paid for it, right?
One of the biggest arguments that I hear these days is "They make enough money anyway, I'm not actually hurting them by downloading the music for free. It saves me $10, and they're so rich that it doesn't matter anyway". Now, personally, I disagree. I'm a firm believer that this is a form of stealing. Have I done it before? Yes, actually. However, I got to the point where I realized that I was stealing from these music artists, and haven't pirated anything since.

To answer your questions in the order they're given...
Yes, I believe online piracy is completely wrong. The creators of the entertainment you're pirating have dedicated a ton of time into the music, movie, or similar entertainment. In response, they ask for a set price. That's their right, their decision. We should either pay the $10, or simply be content to use Pandora or whatever.

I have, to my regret. Simply put, I was quite broke. I was listening to some music, and was like 'well, why not? It's just a couple songs, and a couple dollars won't hurt them...'. However, it is stealing, and regardless of dollar amount stealing is wrong. You'd get mad if someone stole your cheeseburger right after you paid for it, right?
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11-17-14 02:54 AM
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Frodlex :
Glad you got to this quickly. In hindsight, this is a touchy subject, so I should have asked someone first.
I'll remember to be more cautious when posting possibly prohibited topics.
And I'll say, if someone on staff feels this thread should be removed as it violates some rules, that is perfectly fine.

Of course, as you said, I'll try to make sure it doesn't get off topic, and stays in the form of a debate.
As for friendly, I always strive for that
Frodlex :
Glad you got to this quickly. In hindsight, this is a touchy subject, so I should have asked someone first.
I'll remember to be more cautious when posting possibly prohibited topics.
And I'll say, if someone on staff feels this thread should be removed as it violates some rules, that is perfectly fine.

Of course, as you said, I'll try to make sure it doesn't get off topic, and stays in the form of a debate.
As for friendly, I always strive for that
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11-17-14 05:44 AM
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I do it all the time. I find no moral negative to it, given my situation. I purchase media all the time, even with how severely limited my funds are. To make up for the lack of money, I pirate. This in no way hurts them as I did not have the money to give them in the first place. If you do have the money, that's another story, of course, but in general, I don't really see the big deal. Sure, you're getting something for nothing. Something that probably had a lot of time and effort go into it. However, you can share the greatness of the thing you pirated, and that can spur other people to actually buy it, those who have money.
I do it all the time. I find no moral negative to it, given my situation. I purchase media all the time, even with how severely limited my funds are. To make up for the lack of money, I pirate. This in no way hurts them as I did not have the money to give them in the first place. If you do have the money, that's another story, of course, but in general, I don't really see the big deal. Sure, you're getting something for nothing. Something that probably had a lot of time and effort go into it. However, you can share the greatness of the thing you pirated, and that can spur other people to actually buy it, those who have money.
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11-17-14 07:05 AM
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sop281 : You're stealing from people, plain and simple.

Piracy of music or software is just like stealing bread from a store or stealing someone's wallet.  You're taking their creative results and you're not paying anything for it.  Just because the security on the internet is less than that of a record shop, you're walking out with CDs.  End of story.

Telling everyone you're sharing it and maybe someone with money will want to buy some is also complete garbage.  There is enough marketing for artists and professionals to get their product out there.  You stealing something and sharing it with friends teaches your friends to steal as well.

It's a crime.  It doesn't matter the method but piracy is taking away from not only that rich artist (say, Kanye West) but you're stealing from all the people who work for him, like sound engineers, transportation people, all the people he pays so he can make his music.

Anything except paying for property is theft.  You're a criminal, end of story.
sop281 : You're stealing from people, plain and simple.

Piracy of music or software is just like stealing bread from a store or stealing someone's wallet.  You're taking their creative results and you're not paying anything for it.  Just because the security on the internet is less than that of a record shop, you're walking out with CDs.  End of story.

Telling everyone you're sharing it and maybe someone with money will want to buy some is also complete garbage.  There is enough marketing for artists and professionals to get their product out there.  You stealing something and sharing it with friends teaches your friends to steal as well.

It's a crime.  It doesn't matter the method but piracy is taking away from not only that rich artist (say, Kanye West) but you're stealing from all the people who work for him, like sound engineers, transportation people, all the people he pays so he can make his music.

Anything except paying for property is theft.  You're a criminal, end of story.
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11-17-14 07:09 AM
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Depends.
As far as music goes, often I do download it free if its a big band. Many dont even care (they categorically said so ) because they make the money back through gig tickets and band merch.
And thats true, I buy the tickets and the gear.
If its a smaller band I tend to buy the songs, I know the money is important.

Most of the bands I like claim to be in it for the message.
As for movies and games, I dont tend to pirate them.
Unless the company have beimen screwing ocer the consumer.
Then its a swashbuckling piracy rampage, broadside the gits.

Technically I pirate tv shows like game of thrones, but I have no sympathy.
If they want legit views, dont bring it to the states months before the uk.
Thats their fault not mine.
Depends.
As far as music goes, often I do download it free if its a big band. Many dont even care (they categorically said so ) because they make the money back through gig tickets and band merch.
And thats true, I buy the tickets and the gear.
If its a smaller band I tend to buy the songs, I know the money is important.

Most of the bands I like claim to be in it for the message.
As for movies and games, I dont tend to pirate them.
Unless the company have beimen screwing ocer the consumer.
Then its a swashbuckling piracy rampage, broadside the gits.

Technically I pirate tv shows like game of thrones, but I have no sympathy.
If they want legit views, dont bring it to the states months before the uk.
Thats their fault not mine.
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11-17-14 09:12 AM
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baileyface544 :

I thought about this for a while, and in the end, I came up with this set of rules based on the following logic.


Older material? Or newer material?

Some material, like older ROMS are very hard to get a hold, and hunting around for them at garage sales isn't the best way to find them. Most people sell their old games for $1 or two, making them extremely cheap, but the low pricing often shows just how little they value them. Over time though, physical copies become more valuable, particularly to collectors. . .


If Nintendo is trying to make money off of that right, here, right now, No. I won't pirate it. I'll buy the game from someone else, or get it straight from the store.

But an old ROM for the NES that isn't produced, or sold anymore?

I'll "pirate" that.


I the end I want to get the developers their money because they worked hard on it, and I want to show my appreciation for it.

The only problem is with older stuff, that's nearly impossible, which is why I "pirate" it.


Getting games that you should be paying for on Steam right now though?!

That's what's wrong.



baileyface544 :

I thought about this for a while, and in the end, I came up with this set of rules based on the following logic.


Older material? Or newer material?

Some material, like older ROMS are very hard to get a hold, and hunting around for them at garage sales isn't the best way to find them. Most people sell their old games for $1 or two, making them extremely cheap, but the low pricing often shows just how little they value them. Over time though, physical copies become more valuable, particularly to collectors. . .


If Nintendo is trying to make money off of that right, here, right now, No. I won't pirate it. I'll buy the game from someone else, or get it straight from the store.

But an old ROM for the NES that isn't produced, or sold anymore?

I'll "pirate" that.


I the end I want to get the developers their money because they worked hard on it, and I want to show my appreciation for it.

The only problem is with older stuff, that's nearly impossible, which is why I "pirate" it.


Getting games that you should be paying for on Steam right now though?!

That's what's wrong.



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11-17-14 10:21 AM
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warmaker : "You're stealing from people, plain and simple." Oh, I never said I wasn't. I know that I am. 

"Piracy of music or software is just like stealing bread from a store or stealing someone's wallet.  You're taking their creative results and you're not paying anything for it.  Just because the security on the internet is less than that of a record shop, you're walking out with CDs.  End of story." Again, never said I wasn't stealing, just that I find it to be okay in this situation. Though there is a difference in taking something and downloading something. There is no cost to them when I download something. I am not taking a physical object that they paid to produce. They don't actually lose money, they just don't gain anything. Again, stealing, but not quite as bad. 

"Telling everyone you're sharing it and maybe someone with money will want to buy some is also complete garbage.  There is enough marketing for artists and professionals to get their product out there.  You stealing something and sharing it with friends teaches your friends to steal as well." Actually, no. The stuff I get is rather exceptionally unpopular, and generally unmarketed over here. I can't even get a lot of the material that I want over here because it isn't popular enough for local stores. My informing of my friends of this unknown material actually DOES influence them to make purchases. I have seen this happen. It has happened. It does happen. 

"It's a crime.  It doesn't matter the method but piracy is taking away from not only that rich artist (say, Kanye West) but you're stealing from all the people who work for him, like sound engineers, transportation people, all the people he pays so he can make his music." Granted, but I didn't have the money to buy it in the first place, nor was it even available here, or in my language oftentimes. There are many other factors influencing what material I choose to obtain. It's still stealing, yes, but again, I find no issue in what I use given the circumstances surrounding it. 

"Anything except paying for property is theft.  You're a criminal, end of story." Okay, never said I wasn't. I was stressing my personal opinion morality of taking the content. 
warmaker : "You're stealing from people, plain and simple." Oh, I never said I wasn't. I know that I am. 

"Piracy of music or software is just like stealing bread from a store or stealing someone's wallet.  You're taking their creative results and you're not paying anything for it.  Just because the security on the internet is less than that of a record shop, you're walking out with CDs.  End of story." Again, never said I wasn't stealing, just that I find it to be okay in this situation. Though there is a difference in taking something and downloading something. There is no cost to them when I download something. I am not taking a physical object that they paid to produce. They don't actually lose money, they just don't gain anything. Again, stealing, but not quite as bad. 

"Telling everyone you're sharing it and maybe someone with money will want to buy some is also complete garbage.  There is enough marketing for artists and professionals to get their product out there.  You stealing something and sharing it with friends teaches your friends to steal as well." Actually, no. The stuff I get is rather exceptionally unpopular, and generally unmarketed over here. I can't even get a lot of the material that I want over here because it isn't popular enough for local stores. My informing of my friends of this unknown material actually DOES influence them to make purchases. I have seen this happen. It has happened. It does happen. 

"It's a crime.  It doesn't matter the method but piracy is taking away from not only that rich artist (say, Kanye West) but you're stealing from all the people who work for him, like sound engineers, transportation people, all the people he pays so he can make his music." Granted, but I didn't have the money to buy it in the first place, nor was it even available here, or in my language oftentimes. There are many other factors influencing what material I choose to obtain. It's still stealing, yes, but again, I find no issue in what I use given the circumstances surrounding it. 

"Anything except paying for property is theft.  You're a criminal, end of story." Okay, never said I wasn't. I was stressing my personal opinion morality of taking the content. 
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11-17-14 11:01 AM
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"Is online piracy morally wrong, either partially or completely?"

I would say it is partially. However, because you're not actually taking anything away from anyone, except a potential sale, it's hard to say that it is completely stealing.

"If partially, where is the line? At what point does it become stealing?"

Since we're speaking morally, and not legally, I would say it becomes stealing the moment you decide to illegally download something that you have the money to pay for just because you want to save the money.

"Do you ever download things you haven't paid for? If so why? If not....Why?"

I haven't for a while, but the most recent one was downloading a program that we were using for school. I signed up for a free trial, but couldn't use it because I was a student. So my options were to spend a few hundred dollars to do this one assignment, or have to drive all the way to campus to complete it. Since paying them was absolutely out of the question, I pirated their software. I wasn't going to drive half an hour there and half an hour back. Ultimately they lost nothing, and I saved some time and gas money.

warmaker :

"Piracy of music or software is just like stealing bread from a store or stealing someone's wallet."

Except that it's nothing like that at all. If you steal bread from a store then that store not only loses a sale, but it also loses the ability to sell that bread to someone else. Stealing software only steals a potential sale.

"Anything except paying for property is theft. You're a criminal, end of story."

Absolutely, but the thread is supposed to be on the morality of online piracy, not the legality. I think it's too complex to just end the conversation by calling people who pirate criminals and not discussing it. For example, why is it immoral to pirate software that you can't obtain legally (not available for sale for any reason, company went bankrupt, not available in a certain country, etc.)?
"Is online piracy morally wrong, either partially or completely?"

I would say it is partially. However, because you're not actually taking anything away from anyone, except a potential sale, it's hard to say that it is completely stealing.

"If partially, where is the line? At what point does it become stealing?"

Since we're speaking morally, and not legally, I would say it becomes stealing the moment you decide to illegally download something that you have the money to pay for just because you want to save the money.

"Do you ever download things you haven't paid for? If so why? If not....Why?"

I haven't for a while, but the most recent one was downloading a program that we were using for school. I signed up for a free trial, but couldn't use it because I was a student. So my options were to spend a few hundred dollars to do this one assignment, or have to drive all the way to campus to complete it. Since paying them was absolutely out of the question, I pirated their software. I wasn't going to drive half an hour there and half an hour back. Ultimately they lost nothing, and I saved some time and gas money.

warmaker :

"Piracy of music or software is just like stealing bread from a store or stealing someone's wallet."

Except that it's nothing like that at all. If you steal bread from a store then that store not only loses a sale, but it also loses the ability to sell that bread to someone else. Stealing software only steals a potential sale.

"Anything except paying for property is theft. You're a criminal, end of story."

Absolutely, but the thread is supposed to be on the morality of online piracy, not the legality. I think it's too complex to just end the conversation by calling people who pirate criminals and not discussing it. For example, why is it immoral to pirate software that you can't obtain legally (not available for sale for any reason, company went bankrupt, not available in a certain country, etc.)?
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11-17-14 12:29 PM
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I'll just add this in as some food for thought, when it comes to pirating music, bands/ musicians/ what have you make incredibly small profit from actually selling what they produce, that is why many musicians voice that they don't care if their music gets pirated, because they still getting their sound out there for people to decide if they like or not. If people like their sound they are much more likely to go out and try to see them live, to find ways to support this musician and that is what makes them profit. This is why bands tour, they make most of their money from show sales and merch sales at the show. Even buying a band shirt at a store or online provides bands with a small income, they receive so much more when you buy from them personally.
I don't know how much everyone keeps up with these kinds of things, but there actually is a pretty big movement for pirating right now. I can't say much for movies or television shows because those things don't interest me. I know in regards to anime and manga (like what sop gets, I too get that),  Japan has somewhat recently taken a strike against websites that provide the material for pirating. It isn't really working from what I can tell, honestly. I've noticed no difference in the way things are and have been.  But there is a thing about that at least from a more western standpoint, these things are otherwise largely unavailable to us. It helps gain interest in something produced over there, if it's popular enough it gets a dub and English-speaking consumers (as well as others) are finally able to support something they enjoy. 
Basically I see the standpoint on being against piracy because it is peoples jobs on the line but it also is a bigger picture than simply "stealing" and being a "criminal". Alright, this quickly turned into me just trying to add something about music and it turned into this so, I'm outtie.
I'll just add this in as some food for thought, when it comes to pirating music, bands/ musicians/ what have you make incredibly small profit from actually selling what they produce, that is why many musicians voice that they don't care if their music gets pirated, because they still getting their sound out there for people to decide if they like or not. If people like their sound they are much more likely to go out and try to see them live, to find ways to support this musician and that is what makes them profit. This is why bands tour, they make most of their money from show sales and merch sales at the show. Even buying a band shirt at a store or online provides bands with a small income, they receive so much more when you buy from them personally.
I don't know how much everyone keeps up with these kinds of things, but there actually is a pretty big movement for pirating right now. I can't say much for movies or television shows because those things don't interest me. I know in regards to anime and manga (like what sop gets, I too get that),  Japan has somewhat recently taken a strike against websites that provide the material for pirating. It isn't really working from what I can tell, honestly. I've noticed no difference in the way things are and have been.  But there is a thing about that at least from a more western standpoint, these things are otherwise largely unavailable to us. It helps gain interest in something produced over there, if it's popular enough it gets a dub and English-speaking consumers (as well as others) are finally able to support something they enjoy. 
Basically I see the standpoint on being against piracy because it is peoples jobs on the line but it also is a bigger picture than simply "stealing" and being a "criminal". Alright, this quickly turned into me just trying to add something about music and it turned into this so, I'm outtie.
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11-17-14 12:39 PM
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sop281 : You're right.  I didn't read the specific question.  In regards to the morality, then, because you're asking the question, maybe you have doubts about what you're doing.  

You probably figured out where I stand for the morality standpoint.  Crimes are different and some are worse than others.  But you're still cheating the people who help and the supply chain out of their time and money.

Think of a programmer who writes a game and then is paid for how many copies he sells online.  If he sells 2,000 copies but 150,000 people download the game to 'motivate their friends to maybe buy it' then he loses a lot of money.  Add the staff and the total number of people involved in production for music and entertainment and that's a lot of people who potentially lose money.

You made it clear about your thoughts and opinions and I think going on with mine is a waste of time and effort.  We know where the other person stands and no one is going to change their opinion.  With any luck, you'll respect property laws before you get caught doing something you shouldn't.
sop281 : You're right.  I didn't read the specific question.  In regards to the morality, then, because you're asking the question, maybe you have doubts about what you're doing.  

You probably figured out where I stand for the morality standpoint.  Crimes are different and some are worse than others.  But you're still cheating the people who help and the supply chain out of their time and money.

Think of a programmer who writes a game and then is paid for how many copies he sells online.  If he sells 2,000 copies but 150,000 people download the game to 'motivate their friends to maybe buy it' then he loses a lot of money.  Add the staff and the total number of people involved in production for music and entertainment and that's a lot of people who potentially lose money.

You made it clear about your thoughts and opinions and I think going on with mine is a waste of time and effort.  We know where the other person stands and no one is going to change their opinion.  With any luck, you'll respect property laws before you get caught doing something you shouldn't.
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11-17-14 02:52 PM
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I think online pirating is partially wrong. If you download music from a website I say its alright because its probably available from websites like Pandora or Youtube already. There are youtube downloaders and playlists and you can simply log into pandora. 
I think movies are partially wrong if they're in theatres still. Personally, I streamed a few movies because I had an app that let me watch movies and I didnt want to wait a few days until I could go to the theater. For a few other movies I wanted to watch I would've just waited for them to come out on tv or netflix. That doesnt really hurt the makers if I waited anyway.

Another good question would be about the morality of using adblocker.
I think online pirating is partially wrong. If you download music from a website I say its alright because its probably available from websites like Pandora or Youtube already. There are youtube downloaders and playlists and you can simply log into pandora. 
I think movies are partially wrong if they're in theatres still. Personally, I streamed a few movies because I had an app that let me watch movies and I didnt want to wait a few days until I could go to the theater. For a few other movies I wanted to watch I would've just waited for them to come out on tv or netflix. That doesnt really hurt the makers if I waited anyway.

Another good question would be about the morality of using adblocker.
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11-17-14 02:52 PM
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I think online pirating is partially wrong. If you download music from a website I say its alright because its probably available from websites like Pandora or Youtube already. There are youtube downloaders and playlists and you can simply log into pandora. 
I think movies are partially wrong if they're in theatres still. Personally, I streamed a few movies because I had an app that let me watch movies and I didnt want to wait a few days until I could go to the theater. For a few other movies I wanted to watch I would've just waited for them to come out on tv or netflix. That doesnt really hurt the makers if I waited anyway.

Another good question would be about the morality of using adblocker.
I think online pirating is partially wrong. If you download music from a website I say its alright because its probably available from websites like Pandora or Youtube already. There are youtube downloaders and playlists and you can simply log into pandora. 
I think movies are partially wrong if they're in theatres still. Personally, I streamed a few movies because I had an app that let me watch movies and I didnt want to wait a few days until I could go to the theater. For a few other movies I wanted to watch I would've just waited for them to come out on tv or netflix. That doesnt really hurt the makers if I waited anyway.

Another good question would be about the morality of using adblocker.
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11-17-14 02:55 PM
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I'm more interested in listening the opinions than sharing my own at this moment, but I feel like adding something to the discussion.

First, about the idea of piracy being the same as stealing. That's a misconception. Piracy consists of copying something, meaning it won't deprive someone from what they already had. Now I'm not saying there's no sort of prejudice whatsoever, but stealing is characterized by taking possession of something and depriving it's original owner of it with no intents of returning it, Pirated content is copied, thus the original owner still have everything they originally had, regardless of who pirated what and when.

Second, let me me make 2 interesting analogies and I'd like to hear what people think about those situations. A reminder that the proposed debate isn't about laws such as copyright, but moral instead... keep that in mind.

Imagine I go the a farmer's market and buy myself a bunch of vegetables and fruits. Those were so good that I decided to plant the seeds and grow them myself, to do whatever I want with them, including sharing it with others. You could say I made a copy of the farmer's products. Now, technically I'm prejudicing the farmer's because I won't be needing to buy his products anymore.

Does that mean I'm stealing the farmer from something? He still has the money I gave him, he still has his products for sale, I haven't taken anything from him, other than what I paid for.

Now for another example... let's say I am a carpenter. One day, a school owner contacts me and asks me to make new chairs for the entire school. I take the job and with a lot of effort and dedication, I made a bunch of new chairs. I gave the school owner the chairs that I made and he gave me the money for my work. The chairs now belonged to the school owner and he used them many times, for many years and for a variety of different purposes. Once the chairs became old, he decided to sell them.

Now, Is that correct? Those chairs were made by me, should I be compensated for my previous work, or is the original payment for selling something enough? If Instead I decided to charge money whenever someone sits on the chairs I made in order to compensate me for my work, would that be acceptable?
I'm more interested in listening the opinions than sharing my own at this moment, but I feel like adding something to the discussion.

First, about the idea of piracy being the same as stealing. That's a misconception. Piracy consists of copying something, meaning it won't deprive someone from what they already had. Now I'm not saying there's no sort of prejudice whatsoever, but stealing is characterized by taking possession of something and depriving it's original owner of it with no intents of returning it, Pirated content is copied, thus the original owner still have everything they originally had, regardless of who pirated what and when.

Second, let me me make 2 interesting analogies and I'd like to hear what people think about those situations. A reminder that the proposed debate isn't about laws such as copyright, but moral instead... keep that in mind.

Imagine I go the a farmer's market and buy myself a bunch of vegetables and fruits. Those were so good that I decided to plant the seeds and grow them myself, to do whatever I want with them, including sharing it with others. You could say I made a copy of the farmer's products. Now, technically I'm prejudicing the farmer's because I won't be needing to buy his products anymore.

Does that mean I'm stealing the farmer from something? He still has the money I gave him, he still has his products for sale, I haven't taken anything from him, other than what I paid for.

Now for another example... let's say I am a carpenter. One day, a school owner contacts me and asks me to make new chairs for the entire school. I take the job and with a lot of effort and dedication, I made a bunch of new chairs. I gave the school owner the chairs that I made and he gave me the money for my work. The chairs now belonged to the school owner and he used them many times, for many years and for a variety of different purposes. Once the chairs became old, he decided to sell them.

Now, Is that correct? Those chairs were made by me, should I be compensated for my previous work, or is the original payment for selling something enough? If Instead I decided to charge money whenever someone sits on the chairs I made in order to compensate me for my work, would that be acceptable?
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(edited by mvhupsel on 11-17-14 03:00 PM)    

11-17-14 03:02 PM
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mvhupsel : Your second analogy doesn't really work with this situation. When you pirate and then distribute you still have a copy of whatever you were distributing. When you sell the chair you don't turn it into two of the same thing so you lose it after you give it away.
mvhupsel : Your second analogy doesn't really work with this situation. When you pirate and then distribute you still have a copy of whatever you were distributing. When you sell the chair you don't turn it into two of the same thing so you lose it after you give it away.
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11-17-14 03:08 PM
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earthwarrior : The 2 analogies aren't directly related with each other, the first ones refers to copying something. The Second one refers to charging for usage of a final work/product, regardless of copying it or not. You can substitute Chair for whatever you want, including the previous example of fruits and vegetables, if that makes you feel any better.
earthwarrior : The 2 analogies aren't directly related with each other, the first ones refers to copying something. The Second one refers to charging for usage of a final work/product, regardless of copying it or not. You can substitute Chair for whatever you want, including the previous example of fruits and vegetables, if that makes you feel any better.
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11-18-14 11:00 AM
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First, I would like to take the time to thank everyone for the detailed replies, and for sharing your opinions. Many of you have made valid, and concise arguments on the subject, and a few have practically taken the words right out of my mouth. If I may, I would like to share one aspect of my feelings on the subject, that I have yet to see mentions. If it runs a little long, my bad.


Many of you have said that piracy is stealing, plain and simple.
Now the arguments against it being truly stealing (from a moral, not a legal standpoint) have already been made, and I don't wish to be redundant. However, given the broader, rather than the textbook definition, let me ask you another question.
Is selling a misrepresented product stealing? Or if not stealing, is it not wrong?
If I were to sell you a painted stick, and told you it was a sword, am I at fault for lying, or are you at fault for believing me and buying the stick?
Now this may sound off topic, but it's not
That is exactly what many media companies are doing to us,
and that is exactly the reason I pirate certain media. To check it out first.

So many movies and games are misrepresented. Not just by advertising companies, but even by reviewers, many of which have reasons for giving these positive reviews that are aside from believing in a good product.
They highlight the few good parts in a work, and then when you spend all the money to actually purchase it, you find that the rest is nothing more than filler.
Now of course, that is the business, and I won't call them monsters or anything for it.
However, if that's the way companies wanna play it, then I see no fault in pirating a movie or game, to see if it lives up what has been said about it. Of course if it does, buy it. They have made a work that deserves compensation.
However, if they spent all the money on advertising, only to release a painted stick, then I feel they deserve to lose sales.

I won't be specific, but I watched the newest Captain America movie without paying for it first.
You know what? I think they put a lot of work into making that a good movie, and afterwards, I bought the DVD.
They didn't lose a sale, they gained one. Had I not been able to watch the movie first, I never would have bought it.
Why? Because I don't trust the entertainment industry any more. They too often put more work into making a product appear good, than they do actually making good products.
Of course this simply applies to misrepresented works, and not just works I simply didn't like. If I didn't like it, but it was only because it just wasn't my cup of tea, then I will still buy it provided it wasn't garbage thrown together, and advertised as amazing.
So simply put, if I wasn't able to screen movies and games first, I wouldn't have paid for as many as I did. I would have never discovered all the ones worth it under the piles of garbage, because I wouldn't waste my money finding out what was and wasn't worth it.
Basically, these companies are not losing sales from me, they are gaining them.

As far as T.V. shows go, I pay for both Netflix, and Hulu. I don't have time to watch actual television, however I watch what I can on these programs. If a show I want to watch is not on one of them yet (rare, but it happens) then I will stream it. Again, nothing was lost, as I would have just waited the month or so till it made it to Netflix, which I already pay for.

As for music, this doesn't apply. If I want to check out a band before buying an album, there are tons of sites I can legally do so.

Wow, this ran long, I am sorry. If you took the time to read all of that, I thank you. If you disagree, I would absolutely love hear why. Because, as always, I may be wrong.
First, I would like to take the time to thank everyone for the detailed replies, and for sharing your opinions. Many of you have made valid, and concise arguments on the subject, and a few have practically taken the words right out of my mouth. If I may, I would like to share one aspect of my feelings on the subject, that I have yet to see mentions. If it runs a little long, my bad.


Many of you have said that piracy is stealing, plain and simple.
Now the arguments against it being truly stealing (from a moral, not a legal standpoint) have already been made, and I don't wish to be redundant. However, given the broader, rather than the textbook definition, let me ask you another question.
Is selling a misrepresented product stealing? Or if not stealing, is it not wrong?
If I were to sell you a painted stick, and told you it was a sword, am I at fault for lying, or are you at fault for believing me and buying the stick?
Now this may sound off topic, but it's not
That is exactly what many media companies are doing to us,
and that is exactly the reason I pirate certain media. To check it out first.

So many movies and games are misrepresented. Not just by advertising companies, but even by reviewers, many of which have reasons for giving these positive reviews that are aside from believing in a good product.
They highlight the few good parts in a work, and then when you spend all the money to actually purchase it, you find that the rest is nothing more than filler.
Now of course, that is the business, and I won't call them monsters or anything for it.
However, if that's the way companies wanna play it, then I see no fault in pirating a movie or game, to see if it lives up what has been said about it. Of course if it does, buy it. They have made a work that deserves compensation.
However, if they spent all the money on advertising, only to release a painted stick, then I feel they deserve to lose sales.

I won't be specific, but I watched the newest Captain America movie without paying for it first.
You know what? I think they put a lot of work into making that a good movie, and afterwards, I bought the DVD.
They didn't lose a sale, they gained one. Had I not been able to watch the movie first, I never would have bought it.
Why? Because I don't trust the entertainment industry any more. They too often put more work into making a product appear good, than they do actually making good products.
Of course this simply applies to misrepresented works, and not just works I simply didn't like. If I didn't like it, but it was only because it just wasn't my cup of tea, then I will still buy it provided it wasn't garbage thrown together, and advertised as amazing.
So simply put, if I wasn't able to screen movies and games first, I wouldn't have paid for as many as I did. I would have never discovered all the ones worth it under the piles of garbage, because I wouldn't waste my money finding out what was and wasn't worth it.
Basically, these companies are not losing sales from me, they are gaining them.

As far as T.V. shows go, I pay for both Netflix, and Hulu. I don't have time to watch actual television, however I watch what I can on these programs. If a show I want to watch is not on one of them yet (rare, but it happens) then I will stream it. Again, nothing was lost, as I would have just waited the month or so till it made it to Netflix, which I already pay for.

As for music, this doesn't apply. If I want to check out a band before buying an album, there are tons of sites I can legally do so.

Wow, this ran long, I am sorry. If you took the time to read all of that, I thank you. If you disagree, I would absolutely love hear why. Because, as always, I may be wrong.
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11-18-14 12:49 PM
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baileyface544 :
While I agree with what you are saying
"If I were to sell you a painted stick, and told you it was a sword, am I at fault for lying, or are you at fault for believing me and buying the stick?"
That would actually be illegal as its false advertising.
I think much in media is false advertising, I'd be row for lawsuits if anyone decided to pursue one.
Equally stating rrp $50 now only $40 is illegal here if it's neither the regular retail price (or if its a store discount, it had to have been on sale at the higher price for around a month.)
A lot of company's state bogus rrp's and offer the 'discount' price.
Morally and legally questionable.
The mistake many make, is assuming the producer is the only victim. They consistently steal from us by making sales off the back of misinformation.
Thats the kind of thing that makes me piratete media.

As to your reasons for paying, that is exactly why the games industry crashed back in the day. The markets were ilooded with poor quality games that were not worth the money.
If the industry changed piracy would cease to be a major issue. I feel compelled to support Good company's. If they weren't screwing me over I couldn't do so to them.
Most analysts agree that the major issue is the industry itself.
baileyface544 :
While I agree with what you are saying
"If I were to sell you a painted stick, and told you it was a sword, am I at fault for lying, or are you at fault for believing me and buying the stick?"
That would actually be illegal as its false advertising.
I think much in media is false advertising, I'd be row for lawsuits if anyone decided to pursue one.
Equally stating rrp $50 now only $40 is illegal here if it's neither the regular retail price (or if its a store discount, it had to have been on sale at the higher price for around a month.)
A lot of company's state bogus rrp's and offer the 'discount' price.
Morally and legally questionable.
The mistake many make, is assuming the producer is the only victim. They consistently steal from us by making sales off the back of misinformation.
Thats the kind of thing that makes me piratete media.

As to your reasons for paying, that is exactly why the games industry crashed back in the day. The markets were ilooded with poor quality games that were not worth the money.
If the industry changed piracy would cease to be a major issue. I feel compelled to support Good company's. If they weren't screwing me over I couldn't do so to them.
Most analysts agree that the major issue is the industry itself.
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11-18-14 01:08 PM
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warmaker : If a musician would rather be bought than heard then they don't need ether. A good example is Mr. Henry Rollins. He said if you ever see a Black Flag album in a store for 20 bucks, steal it! Bands are not making much from CD sales these days, 10%. They make most of their money through live shows and merch.

I don't buy or download music for free anymore. There are many ways to listen to music these days. I would say, if its out of print or impossible to find (like a movie or album) download it any way you can. If its a band that needs the money and they sell their stuff for a good price, go buy the dang thing. Go out and buy the Murder Junkies new album for 5 bucks or one of the Meatmen's new albums for about the same.
warmaker : If a musician would rather be bought than heard then they don't need ether. A good example is Mr. Henry Rollins. He said if you ever see a Black Flag album in a store for 20 bucks, steal it! Bands are not making much from CD sales these days, 10%. They make most of their money through live shows and merch.

I don't buy or download music for free anymore. There are many ways to listen to music these days. I would say, if its out of print or impossible to find (like a movie or album) download it any way you can. If its a band that needs the money and they sell their stuff for a good price, go buy the dang thing. Go out and buy the Murder Junkies new album for 5 bucks or one of the Meatmen's new albums for about the same.
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