Hoochman : That's EXACTLY what I mean in this post. Good deeds won't get you to heaven!

no such thing as heaven or hell...tell me where do animals go when they die? how about bugs? they can't worship "God" so what happens when they die? huh?

deathblade200 : I truly don't know where bugs and animals go when they die, only the Lord knows all those things. I'd think that animals would go to Heaven because the Lord values animals as well as humans.

Clayton 2 : why do they get a get out of jail free card?

deathblade200 : If they do get a get out of jail free card as you put it, I would imagine because animals don't know the very concept of good and evil as humanity does.

deathblade200 : does it honestly even matter where bugs go? lol But I'd have to agree that they most likey do go to Heaven beacause the Lord does value animals as Clayton 2 has pointed out.

I actually think that animals and bugs don't, because I do not think they have a soul, but that is just an opinion of mine with no backing on my part.

Actually play4fun, I agree with you most on this issue.

Animals don't have a soul??? Try living with an animal you will see more personality and soul in it then most humans. Also how do you explain animals sensing paranormal stuff better then these so called humans with souls??? If anything I bet you animals have just as much if not more soul then humans. Perhaps if you lived in old egyptian times you would view animals as superior... well at least the cat

Animals know right from wrong you just have not been around any. Go watch discovery channel and you will see how chimps and seals and all sorts of animals communicate and know danger and evil between peace and quiet and right from wrong.

yeah, I'm siding with Jigsaw on this one. I think animals have souls/spirits... whatever you want to call them. I've had enough pets that I believe they are just as individual and unique as people. Each pet I've ever had has been slightly different than the last. Why animals would not go to heaven when humans do makes no sense....

anyway... this is a little off-topic .

JigSaw : Back to the on-topic discussion: the fact that there is sin disproves the "brainwashing" argument; God does not brainwash anyone, the fact that sin exists is a testament to His offer of free will. But it's not a mistake on God's part; rather, it is a sad mistake on the part of humans. Yes, by giving us the capacity for love He gave us the capacity for sin... however, He also gave us ample warning that we had to listen. He told Adam not to eat the fruit, but it is Adam's fault for ignoring Him. This was no mistake by God. It was His plan for a perfect world made awry by us.

Brainwashing is apart of sinning because its a tool for deceiving and removing your thoughts with someone elses. God "might" not have brainwashed anyone but I think people who preach him often do. Example: Don't believe Jesus was son of god you will go to hell. That is brainwashing. If anyone should be considered a son of god it should be adam since he was the first male human supposedly. If not then that means basically anyone that is a male born after adam can claim right to being the original son of god.

You could look at brainwashing with reverse phycology... God told him not to eat the fruit but he did. That means he put the thought of sin in his head. And since humans are learning creatures they must learn by their mistakes. That can be considered brainwashing, it's like putting a cookie jar in front of a child and telling them not to eat it. Pure temptation right there, and obviously once you mention it out in the open you will have that thought stuck in your mind so you will end up eating the cookie. Same thing works for teens you talk about telling them not to do drugs and what not how many of them actually follow orders? Putting thoughts in their head like that makes it more tempting so that can be considered a different form of brainwashing.

I would say god brainwashed adam 50% by inserting the thought of sin into his head, the other 50% was adams own free will.

Anyway, that is a bit off topic but I think Adam and Eve, if they even exist, are the only ones who would actually know he exists because they had direct communication with god unlike in todays world where word of god does not come from god but humans instead. God never talked to any of you and told you not to do something has he? Only the bible has done that. So who would you rather believe, the bible or god himself? If god has not spoken to you then that means your taking someone elses word over gods which means someone is brainwashing you into their own vision of god.

From how I see it there are not laws made by god after the whole adam and eve incident. I think God just gave up on giving people orders and letting them do what they want and learn for their mistakes without others telling you right from wrong. I view the bible as a thought of sin like when god told adam not to eat the fruit, its brainwashing. The major key here is you. Only you decide if god exists or not only major difference between todays world and adam and eves world is the word of god is NOT from god himself.

JigSaw : Many people in the Old Testament had direct communication with God: Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, any of those prophets had direct communication with Him.
And Adam and Eve didn't even think about the possibility of disobeying without Satan's presence, as recorded by the Bible (until Satan showed up, they just listened. They knew God loved them and that that rule was there for a reason). And what do you mean no laws made by God?! Two whole books in the Bible, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, are dedicated to giving God's laws! And don't even say it was man's laws masqueraded as God's, because they were things those people wouldn't even think of without His involvement.

Who had communication with God is questionable... and to be honest Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah are just as provable of existing as god or adam and eve is. Bible can be dismissed as not being real evidence to God, adam and eve, or beginning of human existence because its only a few thousand years old. The first humans should have been made 65 million years ago when dinos were made... This makes the bible a relatively new media concept. I highly doubt anyone could pass down this kind of information for 65 million years. Theres proof that dinos existed 65 million years ago, now prove that Daniel and all them prophets exist. Prove adam and eve exist. Isn't it funny how we can prove 65 million year old dinos exist yet we cant prove adam and eve exist or cant prove humans were here when dinos were.

Its all fairy tales unless you can append 65 million years into the concept of the bible and it being anything remotely acceptable or believable in terms of Gods existence and the creation of man.

If satan was a serpent that means he was here before god and before man. Because god was suppose to make man and animals at same time but didn't, not dinos at least. Perhaps that is why they look at satan as some kind of goat or snake or demon with horns. Animals were here first and there is no denying that. I now see why people label satan as an evil goat or animal like creature. There is PROOF animals were here first, it is the key to real truth. Its so typical of humans to use imaginary scapegoats as evil doers. Whoever made up the concept of God is using animals as evil when in reality its the people who are evil. People hold animals in cages not the other way around yet we call satan the bad guy, the goat with horns. Give me a break...

JigSaw : So, now these fossils are coming up with dated tags or something? I don't understand how these are proven to be 65 million years old, especially ones that aren't fully fossilized, and still have blood cells and hemoglobin in them! 65 million year old fossils would not have hemoglobin! And since when are records supporting the Bible's accuracy and the existence of these people highly questionable? The Bible is the most historically supported book short of autobiographies!

You can try and disprove dino's existence and date tags, but at least they existed unlike what was mentioned in the bible. The bible is only historical because the world is full of sheeple; people posting as innocent harmless animals when in reality it is the sheeple who are evil hypocrites who make the world evil by not thinking for themselves.

To prove my sheeple point, people believe in their leaders yet its funny cause its their leaders who are the most deceiving of all. You can witness it every 4 years in USA, watch the hopes of millions believe in their leaders and be led into a slaughter house.

JigSaw; things were very different between ancient Israel and Modern day United States. In ancient times, whenever one had a big job such as prophet or leader or scribe, they would have to take what they did so seriously and not do any foul play or screw up, or they could be punished with death by stoning even if it was an accident, unlike here in the USA when someone purposely makes things worse and gets away with it.

You make a point there BUT with that in mind, things could have passed on the tradition. People took stuff seriously back then now its been taken as a joke because people made it that way over time. Kinda like Christ getting crusified on cross for saying what he was but now and days if you claimed your the son of god you would get laughed at and possibly verbally abused by the media but I doubt you would die over it unless someone found it offensive.

Things seem to have flip flopped over time, Jesus could be considered a leader and getting torchered for doing what he thought was right but now and days leaders dont get torchered they get appreciated by sheep who don't know they are doing wrong. So basically people are voting and clapping for government officials who are doing bad things to them and their country lol. Then when you do good things you get laughed at and or labeled a terrorist.

For the fact that you brought that up though was good makes the bible sound a bit better but I still think with time comes change which means there are things in the bible that could be misleading from the original concept. That also means lies existed in ancient times because lies could have been the only way to form masses together via religion in order to rebel against another superior group.

Jesus went public with who he thought he was, but the bible is not a public statement which means it would get less attention making lies easier to spread lies without getting punished for it. That is one theory that could be looked at. I'm just throwing it out there cause I doubt everyone back then was as truthful as you say because there were some sick and twisted people back in the day who would resort to anything to gain power over the masses.

JigSaw : If the Bible is not a public statement, then how come it's the best selling book of all time? And yes, there were twisted people, but those giving their lives for others don't seem like the kind that would be leading those people astray. Why die for a lie?

Did you just say its a best selling book? That makes it sound like its just a fictional story like harry potter in which it kinda is. Why die for a lie is like asking why people are living a lie. Someone has to make a sacrifice for it to happen. People die for this country all the time and they are dieing for lies just like jesus died for his product. All about business.