This is going to be a long and hopefully thought provoking post so unless you have time, I suggest you skip it for now.

I will start with what this forum is about, Christianity, or rather religion.

First off I don't believe in the existence of God, because there is no proof of God's existence. Which is to say that there is no evidence, accept that generated by faith, of God's existence. And faith is all very good but I have met someone who sincerely believes she was a dragon in a past life. On the other hand I do not rule out the possibility of the existence of God. While this logically seems to contradict my first statement, it in fact doesn't. I admit God may exist or he may not exist, I don't believe he does due to an overwhelming lack of evidence but I admit he might. But the real question is, if faith alone supports the existence of God does it really matter whether or not he exists at all?

If you don't understand what I am trying to say, or disagree with my opinion that there is no evidence of the existence of God please post a response.

My non-belief in God should indicate to you where I stand on Western Religions, but what about Eastern ones? Well I don't believe in a single Self with or without smaller Selves. much for the same reason I don't believe in God, lack of evidence. But that to is a possibility.

If you don't know what I am talking about look up Hinduism and Buddhism. You may have to read a lot to figure out what I am talking about, but you just might learn something.

As for Paganism, I don't know A whole lot about it, but it seems that involves, magic, elements, spirits, and the Earth Goddess etc. Once again lack of evidence. As for Scientology, which I noticed one poster on this forum thought had to do with Science, LoL. There not only is a good deal of missing evidence, there is some pretty good evidence that the man who thought the whole con up was a pedophile, liar, insane, and best of all wrote fiction books for a living (some of which were pretty good).

While I don't believe in religions as a general rule, it doesn't mean I don't believe in what they teach, I just choose not to except all of it. I also feel I have a better sense of morale values because I draw them from a number of sources not just one religions doctrine. Most religious people tend to ignore the parts they don't like anyway. When is the last time one of you "Christians" stoned an adulterer? Why the quotes? Well if you don't follow the doctrine doesn't it follow that your not really Christian after all?

That is about it for religion...now on to Homosexuality.

First I would just like to say I am a Heterosexual male, But I do know Homosexuals, actually know them, not just know of them. Some of the misconceptions I hear I find half disturbing and half hilarious. Like Homosexuality is a choice, something kids do to rebel. Yea, when was the last time you decided to be attracted to somebody? One that really bothers me is the people who use biblical quotes to support their homophobia. First off the Bible was been translated and recopied over hundreds of years, by hundreds of people. second it was originally compiled by a guy who decided which Christian folk stories to put in solely on faith. And third the much quoted section has been shown to have an entirely different meaning hundreds of years ago. As for statistics about how inhuman homosexuals are, well I personally find gay people to be more honest about their private past. Also there is the fact that gays suicide more, well gee, I wonder why they do that? maybe it is the overwhelming support they draw from their Cristian friends? I personally think homosexuals are treated worse and stereotyped more in some communities today then Blacks, Hispanics, or other racial minorities.

Moving on to another favorite, sure to please the anti-American crowd. Capitalism.

Really I simply don't get it, what is so bad about Capitalism? I would like to point out its been Americas policy pretty much from the foundation, and it seems to have worked pretty well for us. I love people who call all Americans Imperialistic Capitalists, coming from a European its hilarious. As I recall most European nations played top dog at one time or another, and they didn't just offer an exchange of commerce. But, we do flood the world with all our Pokemon and Toyotas, no wait... Despite what people think, money doesn't corrupt, power does, and no money does not equate to no power.

Phew, heavy stuff there.
My only comment is.

Yes, gays are treated worse than black people and so on.
But thats mostly the homosexual guys not the lesbians.
Simple explanation. Lesbians = sexy.
It may sound like im not serious about this topic, but I am and the thing above is all true.
Thats the only thing why lesbians arent treated as bad as gay guys.

And the thing aboutgays are treated worse than black people.
Wow, thats unusal [/sarkasm]
There is more rascism agaisnt white people than agaisnt black people. (atleast in sweden).
And you know why?
People are afraid of saying the word black when a black guy is involved.
They make us say stuff like darkly skinned individual.
Thats why i get called rascist frequently.
And I'm not a racsist.
I just call them Black people beacouse i was brought up that way.

And again if you think that i am being silly or doesn't take this seriously enough.
I am a 16 year old swedish boy.
(I would love a discussion right about now )

This is exactly what I think pretty much... There is no proof what so ever of a god yet most of the world accept something they don't even know and dedicate their lives to. I honestly think there is a creator though, or maybe there isn't.

God can be referred to as a gimic to control the masses or maybe it's not but that is a very logical possibility.

The thing that is interesting about religion is how it tears people apart from each other who have no religion or different beliefs. When that happens that pretty much divides us all into our own categories and that's why racism will always exist. "Our Creator" either wanted it to happen this way or it's groups of insane nuts who are doing this for a very foul reason.

Just imagine if religion didn't exist... It's kind of a flip flop situation though as religion is used for mind controlling the masses. I think it's also pretty dang obvious that the only people on this earth who want to control are the governments thats why I think they created religions. In fact, if you look at the government and christianity side by side, you will notice how similar they relate to each other.

Well good post with some thought provoking things.

Religion: Well evidence that points to the existence of a... creator would be creation. Basically everything in existence. God is a pretty broad term.. but I assume your talking about the christian god. If you want a handbook on how to live a good, fruitful, wise life then the bible is one of the best you could have. The word "Christian" means followers of the teachings of Christ and his disciples. I defy you to show me something Jesus or his disciples say about stoning people. In fact Jesus ate dinner with all kinds of wicked people, prostitutes etc. etc. I am a Christian, and follow all the teachings, name one a devote christian doesn't try to follow?

Now evolution, if we did evolve in Trillions of years from nothing then religion is part of our natural evolution and there are plenty of humans that need/want it. Also if you look at it from the purely "the survival of the fittest" then living your life as a christian effectively cuts off one of your hands in the sense of surviving. Meaning a tougher breed... I don't know if you get that, imposing a handicap on yourself which would help selective breeding along.

OK homosexuality. I consider it... like lying or being an alcoholic. I am friends with alcoholics but do not approve, I think it is a dark path. With homosexuality no one has ever proved it was inherent, I for one believe we are a product of our environment and DO choose who we find attractive. If you get right down too it the Beauty magazines, mtv, vh1, television and mass media does decide who we think is attractive. I call BS if you think otherwise. Speaking about society in general here btw. As for homosexuality... along with suicide there are also much much higher rates of pedophilia, sadism, murders, etc. etc. pretty much everything bad you can think of, you can't blame that on society, I blame it on not having morals and convictions.

If we say homosexuality is absolutely normal, then how about sex with children? Some people are probably born and are attracted to children, and who is to say when people are old enough to decide for themselves? Or how about a man with three wives, that is not legal, well having 3 moms must be better than having one. Or Sex with animals, what if your attracted to an animal, better legalize that... Or maybe some people are born being attracted to dead corpses. Better have it so when your girlfriend dies you can preserve her body, i mean natural attraction must be right and who are you to say that necrophilia is a bad thing?

So from an secular perspective having same sex parents does not breed a healthy family, and really can't breed at all. families that aren't strong are not good for the nation. From a natural standpoint it seems perverse too. A union that can bring no offspring. Last I'll say its weird that out of America's population Aids is mostly confined to the homosexuals. Simply because they do a lot more drugs with needles, have have a lot more casual sex, and perhaps less self control.

Last I'll say... they compared the modern scripture to the dead sea scrolls and its unchanged... those are what over three thousand years old? Not that the new testament doesn't bring a new covenant.

Okay Zylo... heh, wow. You are this nation's dream child! Please run for President! We'll have our own little do gooder right up there with Pat Robertson!

Dude, how old are you? If you are older than me then I very much recommend moving out of your parents house or maybe taking a world cultures class or something. Does homosexuality actually hurt you, like physically? I mean, I see how it can hurt you mentally; just thinking of some other guy or girl wanting someone of the same sex in order to be happy gives me a stroke. Yeah, it totally hurts this nation too. Strong families! Yeah, Totally!

...Let me know if you can find more than three families on the same block that don't have bigger issues than homosexuality going on within their homes. God forbid two people come together who can't conceive a child, it's unthinkable! If we are being as prejudice as you then let's make sure those women who medically can't conceive children don't marry men okay? I'll be sure to suggest to my brother that he divorces his wife because she just can't have a baby... These aren't reasons sir.

Now a 25 year old man banging a 9 year old? That hurts someone (not just the little girl but the family). Someone defiling a dead body? Not only do I find it dangerous because of disease, but it would surely dishonor the family. Sex with animals? Well while I can't see too much wrong with this other than finding it repulsive, i do believe disease can come of this as well, but if you really must do this, please stop posting your pictures on the net. Those pop-ups annoy the hell out of me while I'm trying to rub one out to a couple of hot Asians.

Originally posted by Zylo

---

OK homosexuality. I consider it... like lying or being an alcoholic. I am friends with alcoholics but do not approve, I think it is a dark path. With homosexuality no one has ever proved it was inherent, I for one believe we are a product of our environment and DO choose who we find attractive. If you get right down too it the Beauty magazines, mtv, vh1, television and mass media does decide who we think is attractive. I call BS if you think otherwise.

---

Really??? Like, like... like... really??? Holy f*** dude... I think you need to read the bible again, or maybe, for the first time? Maybe just some of the books in the new testament. You may notice how that guy Jesus didn't detest many of his disciples for being sinners? Yeah I know right? He said something about how a doctor doesn't tend to the healthy, but the sick. I wonder what that could mean...

Now I wouldn't consider homosexuals "the sick" because I disagree with a lot of what's in the bible... but that is probably just my brain talking. If you're going to not like homos Zylo, then that is fine, but let's not push our beliefs onto anyone else.

WOW
I am not going to do a full post right now. I believe that I will need about a week to reply to all the things spoken of here.
At this moment I will say. How could you possibly say that there is no God EcnalKcin? Is there anything that you can look at that does not point to intelligent design. Just think about all the elements in a piece of paper (molecular structure, atoms...)? Think about what it takes to think about thinking. To say that we only have faith, is to choose to be ignorant.

"You may notice how that guy Jesus didn't detest many of his disciples for being sinners? Yeah I know right? He said something about how a doctor doesn't tend to the healthy, but the sick. I wonder what that could mean...

"Now I wouldn't consider homosexuals "the sick" because I disagree with a lot of what's in the bible... but that is probably just my brain talking. If you're going to not like homos Zylo, then that is fine, but let's not push our beliefs onto anyone else."

Jesus did not nor does not detest any human. He detests the sin that man does. Jesus came to live a sinless life, and to die for EVERYONE that has done anything wrong. The sick that you are referring to is not specific things but all people who have sinned. I will go on to this more in a separate post, but for now I will go on. Please post a response if you feel it necessary.

Did Zylo say anything about not liking homosexuals? I DO NOT DISLIKE HOMOSEXUALS, but the sin that THEY HAVE CHOSEN to get involved in. I believe that Zylo would agree.

How is stating one's beliefs (just as you [Rgturner] did) "pushing" anything. One can obviously still choose to be ignorant no matter what another says. You blatantly do. Whatever proof that any of us give, it will not change some peoples view-point. Do not argue just because you are not willing to change your lifestyle. The Bible has been proven true in so many ways (I will get to this in a later post). What is your choice - not to agree with the Bible - based on? The point is, I am not pushing anything on you. YOU STILL HAVE A CHOICE. Will you choose to believe truth or continuously search for attempts to refute it. I know what I believe. I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God almighty. My belief is not based on faith alone it is based on predetermined truth. I STILL HAVE NOT PUSHED ANYTHING. You can make your choice.

Hopefully, I will have time to make these posts that I have been talking about. I believe that it is important, but as is, I am still writing this at two in the morning where I am.

Why is it a sin? Because the Bible says so. It is your perspective, but that does not mean that it is universal truth.

You know why it is taboo? Because it does not produce children. In ancient times, that was bad. You could kill your wife if she was barren. Don't argue with me, I have facts on my side, as I am a history major and I specialize in ancient history. Homosexuality was present in ancient societies, and it was tolerated to an extent, but not widely. It was better than being a eunuch at least.

Seriously though, I am not sure if the passages that condemn homosexuality are in the Old or New Testament (as I have never gotten through Genesis, too boring) but either way you have to look at it culturally. Both were written by groups that were highly persecuted and put to death often, thus maintaining their populations was very important to them... hence why anything that would hinder the creation of more children was seen as bad, because they saw it as a threat to their existence. If you willfully ignore that, then you are being foolish.

Also, you do have to concede his point about how the Bible has changed. It is fact that the historical figure that is identified as Jesus was crucified during the reign of Tiberius, roughly agreed upon to be the year 33CE. The First Council of Nicea, convened by the Emperor Constantine I, which established the official doctrine of the Christian church held to even to this day was not held until 325CE! There were major debates over what was orthodox, what was not, what the nature of Christ was, etc. Do you have any idea how many gospels were written in the nearly 300 years between the crucifixion and that council? Do you know how much language changed? Meanings? Look at our own langauge... 100 years ago "gay" meant happy, and only that. You have to keep all of this in mind when you read the Bible, especially when you attempt to use it as a source for any argument. You have to admit that not everything in that book actually happened, that some is myth and legend or allegory to teach a point. You also have to look at historical records, what conditions were like, what culture was like. It is fact that Christianity borrowed myths from pagan religions... I can cite the cults of Horus and Mithras right now as having a nearly identical origin myth.

As to how he can not believe in God. It's call Agnosticism, look it up. There are a LOT of people that feel that way. He said he didn't believe in my faith either, but you don't see me getting pissed, now do you?

Originally posted by The Shadow

---

WOW
I am not going to do a full post right now. I believe that I will need about a week to reply to all the things spoken of here.
At this moment I will say. How could you possibly say that there is no God EcnalKcin? Is there anything that you can look at that does not point to intelligent design. Just think about all the elements in a piece of paper (molecular structure, atoms...)? Think about what it takes to think about thinking. To say that we only have faith, is to choose to be ignorant.

---

I'm sorry, but this is something that MUST be addressed.
Intelligent Design?
Right.

Let me make a small presentation on Stupid Design.

Everyone's saying how all the stuff in the world is made for us, etc etc.
Well, let's look at it this way.
The Earth, being less than .00000000008% of the Universe is probably the ONLY PLACE WE CAN SURVIVE ON. The rest of "known" existence will KILL US. And that's just space. The sun itself, the thing heating us, will one day EXPLODE killing us with it. Yeah. Smart idea. Star creation is completely inefficient, we're on a course to collide with Andromeda, and most planet orbits are unstable.Yep. Smart.
And that's just the universe, I'm not even going to get into the whole thing with Humans and Planet Earth, for example Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Earthquakes, etc.
(Most of this was pulled from Neil Degrasse Tyson's presentation on Stupid Design - Click Here for the Video

Shadow. He is able to say that there is no God as anyone else can. That's his choice. As Elara said, I myself am Agnostic. I do not know if a God exists or not, or whether there are more and each deity is a God itself. I don't know, I don't worry about it. Whatever happens, happens.

Also, "infallible word of God"? God spoke to us now? Interesting. Where was I when this happened? Now, I don't know much about the Bible, but I'm pretty sure that a Human, not God, wrote it.

Anything else that needs addressing.. Ah yes. Homosexuals.
I have a simple solution:
Whatever floats your boat man. Just don't hit on me, and we'll be great friends.
Sure it was taboo. Sure it may have been seen as a sin because of the Bible. So?
Times have changed.

That is all.

okay... I'm getting tired of threads like these. I don't see how a group of people can debate multiple issues in the same thread and somehow have a coherent discussion.

If anyone wants to continue any single topic then make the topic and keep to that topic alone.