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Another Christianity Discussion

 

01-04-17 05:12 PM
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I've been pondering some stuff that was explained to me around 2 or 3 years ago. Some of this stuff was talked about in my last thread kinda like this, but that thread is around a year old and closed. Besides, there's some new stuff I would like to talk about this time. I asked why there is so much bad in the world if God was supposed to be just? He told me free will. So I'm like ok I guess. I thought about it some more, and I thought about some points/questions that I think just throw free will out the window. The one I thought about the most has to do with disabilities people are born with. If God gives us free will, what about them? They don't deserve to deal with whatever they were born with for life for seemingly no reason at all. It frustrates me. There are some disabilities that just shut people down. They don't get to do the things other people can do. Where's the free will in that? Any comments or replies are appreciated.
I've been pondering some stuff that was explained to me around 2 or 3 years ago. Some of this stuff was talked about in my last thread kinda like this, but that thread is around a year old and closed. Besides, there's some new stuff I would like to talk about this time. I asked why there is so much bad in the world if God was supposed to be just? He told me free will. So I'm like ok I guess. I thought about it some more, and I thought about some points/questions that I think just throw free will out the window. The one I thought about the most has to do with disabilities people are born with. If God gives us free will, what about them? They don't deserve to deal with whatever they were born with for life for seemingly no reason at all. It frustrates me. There are some disabilities that just shut people down. They don't get to do the things other people can do. Where's the free will in that? Any comments or replies are appreciated.
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01-04-17 08:58 PM
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God or no god, people get exactly what they deserve. They are then meant to deal with it and succeed in life at any means necessary.

Life isn't supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be full of hardships that we all deserve. The truth of the matter is that no one deserves to breeze through life, because life isn't a game or a joke.

People who have disabilities aren't victims. That's just silly.

Also side note if God is all-powerful and controlling then free will is a lie because he's controlling what you'll do with your so-called free will. Free will is an illusion.

Another side note, there's nothing proving god exists. There's nothing proving god doesn't exist either, so there's little point in discussing it.
God or no god, people get exactly what they deserve. They are then meant to deal with it and succeed in life at any means necessary.

Life isn't supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be full of hardships that we all deserve. The truth of the matter is that no one deserves to breeze through life, because life isn't a game or a joke.

People who have disabilities aren't victims. That's just silly.

Also side note if God is all-powerful and controlling then free will is a lie because he's controlling what you'll do with your so-called free will. Free will is an illusion.

Another side note, there's nothing proving god exists. There's nothing proving god doesn't exist either, so there's little point in discussing it.
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(edited by yoshirulez! on 01-04-17 09:00 PM)    

01-04-17 09:21 PM
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yoshirulez! :

There's no harm in discussing things. I wasn't saying their victims exactly, perhaps I could have worded myself better. I use my post as a "If God was real" argument. I don't think he is, just my beliefs. I will agree with you on that free will is an illusion. It doesn't make full sense.
yoshirulez! :

There's no harm in discussing things. I wasn't saying their victims exactly, perhaps I could have worded myself better. I use my post as a "If God was real" argument. I don't think he is, just my beliefs. I will agree with you on that free will is an illusion. It doesn't make full sense.
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01-04-17 09:23 PM
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Lexatom : In that case, I guess you could say if God was real, God would create people with disabilities because he was playing God. Because.. he's God. That's just kinda how it works.
Lexatom : In that case, I guess you could say if God was real, God would create people with disabilities because he was playing God. Because.. he's God. That's just kinda how it works.
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01-04-17 09:34 PM
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It is like I have always said,if there was a God,he would be brought in before HR for his poor planning and execution. If there is a God,a one entity that we are based on his image,why is there other races? Life was never meant to be easy or fair. It is like my dad would say,"If life was fair,bras would not come in different sizes."

Yoshi,I would disagree,people that have a disability are victims. Imagine if you had MS (muscular dystrophy). You would be a prisoner in your own body. Or if you were a paraplegic. You would be confined to a wheelchair,and the world would seem very unfair. Now,if they brought it on themselves like a smoker getting emphysema,I would agree with you or a guy that was told repeatedly he had to lose weight or his body would shut down,and he kept eating himself to an early grave.
It is like I have always said,if there was a God,he would be brought in before HR for his poor planning and execution. If there is a God,a one entity that we are based on his image,why is there other races? Life was never meant to be easy or fair. It is like my dad would say,"If life was fair,bras would not come in different sizes."

Yoshi,I would disagree,people that have a disability are victims. Imagine if you had MS (muscular dystrophy). You would be a prisoner in your own body. Or if you were a paraplegic. You would be confined to a wheelchair,and the world would seem very unfair. Now,if they brought it on themselves like a smoker getting emphysema,I would agree with you or a guy that was told repeatedly he had to lose weight or his body would shut down,and he kept eating himself to an early grave.
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01-04-17 09:49 PM
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I don't have the patience I used too so I'm gonna cut to the chase if that helps.

I think about what if God does/doesn't exist and what it means. In the end, I don't really see this Universe just existing without some sort of meaning as complex as it is, and honestly simple video games on your NES have a higher chance or randomly coming into existence over a series of millions of years before anything as complex as even a single cell. This world seems to be designed to me, and the Bible's moral code is basically based upon a balance of human tampering with that world, and rules that keep us safe, which I highly adhere too.

The next thing to ask is. . . why does this video game we call life have lots of random elements, and even outright disastrous spawn points, and hampering disabilities at times? Well, for one, this is not a fighting game or even an action platformer, but it's basically a sandbox game with an admin who only deals out bans after you die.

I will say this. If life were so perfect, and there was no risk, then there wouldn't be any reward that we could anticipate or work for either. I like the way in this universe you first have to learn the ropes before you can get out there, join a team of other players and then begin making your mark on the world. It's a heavy learning curb to be certain, but it's doable, and what you can enjoy in life is pretty great. Just know that this universe is based upon your and everyone's interactions. This Universe is an unfolding interactive story, and it will continue to obey it's rules. Even the ones that you are not aware of in existence.

If you want to know why bad things happen to people before they are born. It's just bad luck. Some indescrepency from earlier down the line or during development is likely the cause. Science is learning more about ourselves as humans everyday, and if there's one thing we have learned in the formation of society, treating people right as the Bible suggests has gone a long way in making us more prosperous.

All I know is that where there is a problem, that there is a cause and a need for a solution. Blaming god for bad design, especially when many of modern problems have showed up in the last few centuries is silly. People try to pretend that some bad trends have existed very commonly for centuries, and many of the did, but they were not nearly as prevalent as they are today. Yes, ancient people did do bad or stupid things like we do, and certainly, the number has fluxated, but I have a hard time believing that many of the problems that we face in people today have always existed. My mom had cancer, everyone told her to do chemotherapy. . . she did research. .. cured her cancer just by EATING HEALTHY. She should be dead, but she's not. The tumors slowly started shrinking. . .

All I know is after watching that happen in my life, I pretty much quite buying anything mainstream in categories of health and science. There are people in power who are in control and want to make us keep buying their expensive drugs that don't really fix the problem ect. . . it's really funny.

It's like vaccines and their connections to Autism because of the mercury ect. And major companies can't have that kindof truth going around detering people from vaccines that they don't even need.

Sorry for being so blunt, but I'm on a schedule, and that's just my thoughts on the few things. No, I don't have all the answers, but as science reveals more and more things to us, we can have a clearer understanding of how our bodies work and what causes these things. Some mysteries humans could only guess upon for ages, and those who had it right were often ridiculed at first for it.

All I can really say is when you life life, use common sense. Question things. Think about your body, how it works, what seems natural for it in it's diet, don't marry your sister if you don't want your kids to be messed up (there's a reason we are naturally repulsed from this) Take care of your family. Be a real mom and a dad for them ect. . .

That's all I can really say. I am aware of a passage in the New Testament where Jesus says that a man was blind literally so that he could be healed of that blindness and the God would be glorified, but. . . I would bet that's NOT what it says in the original Hebrew. I mean shoot, it's like the rule about clothing being made of two different kinds of threads. . . that's not what it says in the original Hebrew at all.

So yeah, there you go. That's my two cents, and I hope it is of some use to you Lunar.
I don't have the patience I used too so I'm gonna cut to the chase if that helps.

I think about what if God does/doesn't exist and what it means. In the end, I don't really see this Universe just existing without some sort of meaning as complex as it is, and honestly simple video games on your NES have a higher chance or randomly coming into existence over a series of millions of years before anything as complex as even a single cell. This world seems to be designed to me, and the Bible's moral code is basically based upon a balance of human tampering with that world, and rules that keep us safe, which I highly adhere too.

The next thing to ask is. . . why does this video game we call life have lots of random elements, and even outright disastrous spawn points, and hampering disabilities at times? Well, for one, this is not a fighting game or even an action platformer, but it's basically a sandbox game with an admin who only deals out bans after you die.

I will say this. If life were so perfect, and there was no risk, then there wouldn't be any reward that we could anticipate or work for either. I like the way in this universe you first have to learn the ropes before you can get out there, join a team of other players and then begin making your mark on the world. It's a heavy learning curb to be certain, but it's doable, and what you can enjoy in life is pretty great. Just know that this universe is based upon your and everyone's interactions. This Universe is an unfolding interactive story, and it will continue to obey it's rules. Even the ones that you are not aware of in existence.

If you want to know why bad things happen to people before they are born. It's just bad luck. Some indescrepency from earlier down the line or during development is likely the cause. Science is learning more about ourselves as humans everyday, and if there's one thing we have learned in the formation of society, treating people right as the Bible suggests has gone a long way in making us more prosperous.

All I know is that where there is a problem, that there is a cause and a need for a solution. Blaming god for bad design, especially when many of modern problems have showed up in the last few centuries is silly. People try to pretend that some bad trends have existed very commonly for centuries, and many of the did, but they were not nearly as prevalent as they are today. Yes, ancient people did do bad or stupid things like we do, and certainly, the number has fluxated, but I have a hard time believing that many of the problems that we face in people today have always existed. My mom had cancer, everyone told her to do chemotherapy. . . she did research. .. cured her cancer just by EATING HEALTHY. She should be dead, but she's not. The tumors slowly started shrinking. . .

All I know is after watching that happen in my life, I pretty much quite buying anything mainstream in categories of health and science. There are people in power who are in control and want to make us keep buying their expensive drugs that don't really fix the problem ect. . . it's really funny.

It's like vaccines and their connections to Autism because of the mercury ect. And major companies can't have that kindof truth going around detering people from vaccines that they don't even need.

Sorry for being so blunt, but I'm on a schedule, and that's just my thoughts on the few things. No, I don't have all the answers, but as science reveals more and more things to us, we can have a clearer understanding of how our bodies work and what causes these things. Some mysteries humans could only guess upon for ages, and those who had it right were often ridiculed at first for it.

All I can really say is when you life life, use common sense. Question things. Think about your body, how it works, what seems natural for it in it's diet, don't marry your sister if you don't want your kids to be messed up (there's a reason we are naturally repulsed from this) Take care of your family. Be a real mom and a dad for them ect. . .

That's all I can really say. I am aware of a passage in the New Testament where Jesus says that a man was blind literally so that he could be healed of that blindness and the God would be glorified, but. . . I would bet that's NOT what it says in the original Hebrew. I mean shoot, it's like the rule about clothing being made of two different kinds of threads. . . that's not what it says in the original Hebrew at all.

So yeah, there you go. That's my two cents, and I hope it is of some use to you Lunar.
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(edited by Sword legion on 01-04-17 09:53 PM)    

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Lexatom :

You're making a very educated distinction in the problem of evil. Bravo. I hope you can understand that this would need a very educated response. Hopefully what I write below can be understood well.

"If God is good, and God is all powerful, God should actively eliminate evil. But evil exists. Therefore, God is either not good, not all powerful, or God does not exist".

The above is the common formulation for the problem of evil. The most common answer is "God gave us free will, and does not choose to violate our free will." But this only covers the evil things people do. Here is the distinction you have made: evil decisions and natural evil.

The most famous example of natural evil is of "the fawn". The fawn is caught in a forest fire caused by lightning. The fawn is badly burned, but does not die. Instead, the fawn writhes in pain for over three days. The fawn cannot move from it's spot on the ground and cannot heal itself, so it simply dies of dehydration. This is "natural evil". No one caused this evil, but the agony of the fawn is entirely unnecessary.

This kind of discussion is addressed by countless authors (Dostoevsky, Camus, Sartre, Rowe, Kierkegaard, Plantiga, etc) and also mentioned in the bible (Job and Ecclesiastes).

The solutions to natural evil are inconclusive. Camus, Rowe, and Sartre conclude there is no God, but they also conclude there is no meaning to life. This would mean that "evil" isn't a problem at all. If we wish to maintain that evil is a problem, the only options are the theistic options. Kierkegaard says that natural evil is a test to make you doubt, and you must make a leap of faith. Plantiga argues that God has no duty to prevent natural evil, but that God does not owe us moral goodness. I side with Dostoevsky. Dostoevsky's answer is that natural evil is also man's responsibility. The solution to the problem of the fawn is not God, but us. We should have nursed the fawn to health.

So, Dostoevsky's answer to the boy born with a handicap is our own mercy to his disability. The only reason I am not handicapped is because my arms and legs work for me. The solution is obvious: I must be the arms and legs of the disabled.

Notice this answer does not involve God's responsibility. I do think God must be responsible to natural evil, but I think his solution of choice was free will. I must choose to work for others. In this way, natural evil ceases to exist. God has provided the solution to natural evil by providing people who can choose to help others.

In this way, I have thrown the problem of natural evil and free will in the same cage. If free will is a good solution to evil decisions, it is also a good solution to natural evil. I am the solution, and I will work to overcome the impairments of life with joy.

yoshirulez!: There is plenty of evidence for God. Logic, morality, personal identity, and history all confirm it. You simply need to look at the facts. Many people take the facts for granted, and many deny that facts are facts. This doesn't change anything though. God exists regardless of people's acceptance.
Lexatom :

You're making a very educated distinction in the problem of evil. Bravo. I hope you can understand that this would need a very educated response. Hopefully what I write below can be understood well.

"If God is good, and God is all powerful, God should actively eliminate evil. But evil exists. Therefore, God is either not good, not all powerful, or God does not exist".

The above is the common formulation for the problem of evil. The most common answer is "God gave us free will, and does not choose to violate our free will." But this only covers the evil things people do. Here is the distinction you have made: evil decisions and natural evil.

The most famous example of natural evil is of "the fawn". The fawn is caught in a forest fire caused by lightning. The fawn is badly burned, but does not die. Instead, the fawn writhes in pain for over three days. The fawn cannot move from it's spot on the ground and cannot heal itself, so it simply dies of dehydration. This is "natural evil". No one caused this evil, but the agony of the fawn is entirely unnecessary.

This kind of discussion is addressed by countless authors (Dostoevsky, Camus, Sartre, Rowe, Kierkegaard, Plantiga, etc) and also mentioned in the bible (Job and Ecclesiastes).

The solutions to natural evil are inconclusive. Camus, Rowe, and Sartre conclude there is no God, but they also conclude there is no meaning to life. This would mean that "evil" isn't a problem at all. If we wish to maintain that evil is a problem, the only options are the theistic options. Kierkegaard says that natural evil is a test to make you doubt, and you must make a leap of faith. Plantiga argues that God has no duty to prevent natural evil, but that God does not owe us moral goodness. I side with Dostoevsky. Dostoevsky's answer is that natural evil is also man's responsibility. The solution to the problem of the fawn is not God, but us. We should have nursed the fawn to health.

So, Dostoevsky's answer to the boy born with a handicap is our own mercy to his disability. The only reason I am not handicapped is because my arms and legs work for me. The solution is obvious: I must be the arms and legs of the disabled.

Notice this answer does not involve God's responsibility. I do think God must be responsible to natural evil, but I think his solution of choice was free will. I must choose to work for others. In this way, natural evil ceases to exist. God has provided the solution to natural evil by providing people who can choose to help others.

In this way, I have thrown the problem of natural evil and free will in the same cage. If free will is a good solution to evil decisions, it is also a good solution to natural evil. I am the solution, and I will work to overcome the impairments of life with joy.

yoshirulez!: There is plenty of evidence for God. Logic, morality, personal identity, and history all confirm it. You simply need to look at the facts. Many people take the facts for granted, and many deny that facts are facts. This doesn't change anything though. God exists regardless of people's acceptance.
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(edited by Txgangsta on 01-05-17 11:38 PM)     Post Rating: 1   Liked By: Lexatom,

03-05-17 06:44 PM
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I think the idea of free will itself should be examined before we start discussing its application to religion. Free will doesn't exactly exist because we can't decide to start flying, we can't all live in Chicago, we can't hold our breath for more than a few minutes and we can't jump off buildings and survive.

Those are silly examples but they outline the fact that you can't choose to run a 3 minute mile. So, now we are limited by whatever intelligence we have, whatever social construct we were born into, and where we live and what our parents provide us. I can't have caviar for breakfast because it's not applicable.

Saying that, now we look at the Christian God. Why would this God do things like kill babies, let murder and war happen, and have all the negative things go on if he's a loving God. I grew up hearing about how Jesus and God loved me. But God demands obedience over everything and Jesus lets everyone die at some point, usually violently.

It doesn't add up. This is a good spot for Atheists to come in and say, "See? It's so much easier to just accept there is no God and we're all picking our own fate. I think we're just bouncing around and it turns out there isn't a greater power. It's just Nature with a capital "N" which exists and Nature doesn't love us. Carl Sagan once said, "The Universe is neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent."

I tend to agree.
I think the idea of free will itself should be examined before we start discussing its application to religion. Free will doesn't exactly exist because we can't decide to start flying, we can't all live in Chicago, we can't hold our breath for more than a few minutes and we can't jump off buildings and survive.

Those are silly examples but they outline the fact that you can't choose to run a 3 minute mile. So, now we are limited by whatever intelligence we have, whatever social construct we were born into, and where we live and what our parents provide us. I can't have caviar for breakfast because it's not applicable.

Saying that, now we look at the Christian God. Why would this God do things like kill babies, let murder and war happen, and have all the negative things go on if he's a loving God. I grew up hearing about how Jesus and God loved me. But God demands obedience over everything and Jesus lets everyone die at some point, usually violently.

It doesn't add up. This is a good spot for Atheists to come in and say, "See? It's so much easier to just accept there is no God and we're all picking our own fate. I think we're just bouncing around and it turns out there isn't a greater power. It's just Nature with a capital "N" which exists and Nature doesn't love us. Carl Sagan once said, "The Universe is neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent."

I tend to agree.
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03-05-17 10:28 PM
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I am a Christian so I will try my best to explain things if you have questions then you can pm me. 

A lot of religions even some branches of of Christianity teach that being disabled is punishment. However The Gospel of John Chapter 9 gives us a different perspective. Jesus's disciples see a young man who is blind and disabled. The Disciples ask Jesus who sinned did this man or his parents sin. The Pharisees taught that health conditions were punishment. Jesus explains neither the man nor his parents sinned. Basically Jesus is saying that disabilities are not due to a person sinning and are not punishment. I have a disability and I used to question if I was being punished. However when I read that verse I thought long and hard about it and realized that I was loved by God and I had done nothing wrong. It lead to my re-dedication of my Christian Faith.

Second if you believe the book of Genesis A very long time ago millions to billions of years ago. God Created everything in 7 days. The reason I say millions and billions is because we do not know what a day was in God's time it could have been your 24 hour day, it could have been millions of years or billions. I also have a science degree so I will go with millions to billions even though I don't know. Anyway, God created Adam and Eve they had lots and lots of kids and humans started to multiple. Humans were supposed to take care of the land and use it wisely. We know what happened. Later there was the great flood. After the great flood humans did some things that had consequences. 

Humans after the great flood started to really domesticate animals part of the agriculture era. What happened is humans started getting diseases and life was much shorter. The earliest humans lived several centuries as there were not that many diseases at that time. So while the agriculture era lead to improvements in farming and greater crop yields it came with a price. 

These diseases also allowed mutations in our genes. Then you started to see genetic conditions appear. After Rome Fell in AD 476 you would have the dark ages. The Dark ages saw a huge uptick in diseases and mutations due to people's way of living. During the dark ages people did not bathe regular this allowed diseases. raw sewage was dumped in the streets and other gross things. If you lived to be 40 you were ancient. All of this allowed more diseases to take place. More diseases popped up during this era than the agriculture era. Diseases like Tuberculosis, small pox, staph ( staph was mentioned in ancient times), the plague, and others plagued society. They also caused mutations. After the middle ages the mutations had entered the gene pool. But another era would help fuel more diseases. 

The industrial Revolution late 18th century throughout the 19th century. While it allowed advances in medicine and technology it also lead to high levels of pollution. The Pollution caused mutations and disabilities. There was a spike in cancers typically not seen before due to exposure to chemicals and pollution. Lung Cancer, black lung disease, colon cancer, lead poisoning, and other stuff lead to disabilities. The pollution during this time frame and even into the 20th century has been linked to Autism, learning disabilities, behavior disorders due to being poisoned, cancers, and other disabilities. 

So yeah our actions as humans is mainly what has caused disabilities and diseases to occur. The Bible tells us as I stated that God is not the cause of it and it is not the result of sinning most of the time. 

The only time a disease or disability would be the result of sinning would be drugs. If you use Heroin or meth on a daily basis you are setting yourself up of dying either from the drugs themselves or by getting cancers related to drug use. Same way if you fool around and have multiple sex partners then in that case your choice and lifestyle would lead to you getting some bad stuff. Most of the time though disabilities and diseases are not from sin as Jesus points out in the Gospel of John 
I am a Christian so I will try my best to explain things if you have questions then you can pm me. 

A lot of religions even some branches of of Christianity teach that being disabled is punishment. However The Gospel of John Chapter 9 gives us a different perspective. Jesus's disciples see a young man who is blind and disabled. The Disciples ask Jesus who sinned did this man or his parents sin. The Pharisees taught that health conditions were punishment. Jesus explains neither the man nor his parents sinned. Basically Jesus is saying that disabilities are not due to a person sinning and are not punishment. I have a disability and I used to question if I was being punished. However when I read that verse I thought long and hard about it and realized that I was loved by God and I had done nothing wrong. It lead to my re-dedication of my Christian Faith.

Second if you believe the book of Genesis A very long time ago millions to billions of years ago. God Created everything in 7 days. The reason I say millions and billions is because we do not know what a day was in God's time it could have been your 24 hour day, it could have been millions of years or billions. I also have a science degree so I will go with millions to billions even though I don't know. Anyway, God created Adam and Eve they had lots and lots of kids and humans started to multiple. Humans were supposed to take care of the land and use it wisely. We know what happened. Later there was the great flood. After the great flood humans did some things that had consequences. 

Humans after the great flood started to really domesticate animals part of the agriculture era. What happened is humans started getting diseases and life was much shorter. The earliest humans lived several centuries as there were not that many diseases at that time. So while the agriculture era lead to improvements in farming and greater crop yields it came with a price. 

These diseases also allowed mutations in our genes. Then you started to see genetic conditions appear. After Rome Fell in AD 476 you would have the dark ages. The Dark ages saw a huge uptick in diseases and mutations due to people's way of living. During the dark ages people did not bathe regular this allowed diseases. raw sewage was dumped in the streets and other gross things. If you lived to be 40 you were ancient. All of this allowed more diseases to take place. More diseases popped up during this era than the agriculture era. Diseases like Tuberculosis, small pox, staph ( staph was mentioned in ancient times), the plague, and others plagued society. They also caused mutations. After the middle ages the mutations had entered the gene pool. But another era would help fuel more diseases. 

The industrial Revolution late 18th century throughout the 19th century. While it allowed advances in medicine and technology it also lead to high levels of pollution. The Pollution caused mutations and disabilities. There was a spike in cancers typically not seen before due to exposure to chemicals and pollution. Lung Cancer, black lung disease, colon cancer, lead poisoning, and other stuff lead to disabilities. The pollution during this time frame and even into the 20th century has been linked to Autism, learning disabilities, behavior disorders due to being poisoned, cancers, and other disabilities. 

So yeah our actions as humans is mainly what has caused disabilities and diseases to occur. The Bible tells us as I stated that God is not the cause of it and it is not the result of sinning most of the time. 

The only time a disease or disability would be the result of sinning would be drugs. If you use Heroin or meth on a daily basis you are setting yourself up of dying either from the drugs themselves or by getting cancers related to drug use. Same way if you fool around and have multiple sex partners then in that case your choice and lifestyle would lead to you getting some bad stuff. Most of the time though disabilities and diseases are not from sin as Jesus points out in the Gospel of John 
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Registered: 08-18-12
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