Vanelan : while I agree I think the perceived problem of staff being able to do more than non-staff keeps people from trying. I could probably win green as trusted or elite if I wanted to put in the effort to do it.

I still think removing the cap on actions that count towards green (so no CP or Viz but the action itself still would count) could help fix that problem. People knowing that they could beat staff with effort might actually encourage people to try to put that effort in.

I also think rewarding more than JUST the first place winner could help. Once people know that first is taken they rarely put in the effort to get points unless they have a personal jersey win in mind or something.

Vanelan :
That's simply me stating a fact.   Staff does have an advantage when it comes to green.  I was wrong about the red jersey.
Telling people to just Hush up and deal with it isn't helping the case, especially coming from a Global.


Since you see it as complaining, feel free to dis-regard it. 

The thing is People do try to win the TDV.  Quite a lot do.  But if you've noticed a pattern typically on day 25 of Every Tour De vizzed, the competition drops down dramatically.   Because more then likely all of the current Jerseys have been snagged up in the overall section.
So only the select few can compete against each other for that select jersey.


So in short: Unless your on the final overall rankings, you might as well stop posting for the TDV.

If there was something like the General Banner, that could encourage more competition as that's my main concern.   No Normal or Trusted competes in this thing anymore 

Even with the Newbie banner, that thing's gone down dramatically as well.  Again due to lack of posting.


What really started all of this was the fact that the combination of Trusted, Normal, and Newbies ended up barely getting 300 points.  
 How does a competition seem active then If half of vizzed's population isn't even trying?

And if you could.. just go ahead and close this thread.  I don't really need it anymore..

Divine Aurora : Red was most words in a day. I disagree though. The TdV exists simply to increase site activity. The contribution aspect is vital.

Also, gonna take the time to put emphasis on my distaste for the TdV as a whole.

SuperCrash64 : That you are bringing up these ideas of adding new banners to the competition so that other people besides the top winners can win something (because it feels like Normal members don't have much of a chance at winning the current TDVs as they are) is indeed a grave issue and it is my personal opinion that the Staff would do well to take heed of this warning. Thank you for trying to bring this to our attention again, and I hope you won't lose heart or stop trying to compete in the TDVs altogether. Changes for the better can only happen after these types of discussions, so I hope you won't give up so quickly on listening to our (the Staff's) side of the story/views as well. Many of us have also been competing for a while now, so we do understand what some of the greatest game breakers are. You'd be surprised by how many of us have actually been trying to make the TDV more fair for everyone, but it really does take a great amount of effort to figure out what works and what doesn't... from a systemic standpoint.

Vanelan : "Cox didn't really have a huge advantage over anyone else with the actions he did."

For the most part, that might be true but the source of their arguments is actually the caps on the actions being higher for Staff members. =/ I don't see how we could remedy that without changing the hierarchical system though. As for competing, they did try for a while. The fact that they're still complaining is actually not a 100% bad sign, since it means they are still interested in the competition. When there's only silence, then it's truly all over.

Minuano : "If so many users are complaining I don't think it's simply a matter of users not trying hard enough, be it little motivation or not."

On this point, I partially agree with you because reason dictates that when every reasonable person around you is running to jump off a bridge into the water below, more often than not, there is something wrong with the bridge, e.g. it's on fire. No one will truly be 100% satisfied, but having so many dissatisfied users is rather unusual, even if each person has their own motivations for why they want certain adjustments to be made (some want more of a challenge and some just want to make it easier for themselves to win without trying).

Also... *Unsticks you from the past* Compete sometime and find out ... that yes, it does count for Red. XD

EX Palen : "Screenshot adding should be taken more seriously by non-staff users, both for the competition and to contribute towards the site."

I partially agree with you on this point. Although Ferdinand was a Screenshot Adder, he did more than just screenshot adding (please refer to all of the lovely videos he uploaded). However, as you mentioned, people tend to forget about some actions and write them off as being too difficult when they sometimes can't seem to get something to work. We sometimes take it for granted that new people know how the Vizzed Plugin works, either for adding screenshots or for recording videos. One of the older members that returned recently even admitted that he didn't realize his videos would not count for Viz/CPs unless they were uploaded to the Vizzed YouTube account. Also, since the time of the competition you mentioned, a few more actions have been added including Song Ratings, which is available to all.

As for non-staff users increasing their pace, maybe they have tried but none of it is reflected on the TDV list because the rest of their actions could no longer be seen after they reached their daily limit. I'm sure someone out there wanted to rate 190 songs like a Staff member in one day, but they just didn't because their actions were capped at 64. Certainly, they could do more, but it won't appear for them on the list and if they were seriously trying to compete, then they would more often than not, stop in order to conserve their energy. As for people stepping up their activity so that they could try for a staff position, I once mentioned that as the current logical way of increasing one's cap limit (as it pertains to the way the current TDVs operate). However, that is only necessary if there are caps on the limits... Without any, one wouldn't necessarily need to try to become a Staff member, and they probably wouldn't keep thinking only Staff members have a chance of winning.

geeogree : Before you apply those changes/open the floodgates, please make sure there is a system in place or at least sufficient manpower to be able to handle the influx of information that will be needed for such a TDV. Other than that, it sounds like an interesting test...

Um... about #3... Did you mean "Restrict all staff actions from counting?" oO;; Maybe I'm just reading it incorrectly? oO

geeogree : Then I think David needs to increase the number of actions for everyone rather than restrict actions.
I'm all for 2nd and 3rd place rewards, but will they go to anyone other than staff? 
The top 3 just about every day and total monthly have been staff. That's not because some advantage, but rather more effort on their part.
Like you said; if you put in the effort, you could win as red/green trusted or elite. And therein lies the real problem... the effort part.

SuperCrash64 : Again. I don't think you're understanding. I haven't said for anyone to stop talking. I just think that people are using the fact that the staff are staff against them. 
As geeo said, it's very possible for a trusted member to win green/red, but effort needs to be put into it. The staff winning these means that they are putting in a lot of effort, and I feel like their efforts are disparaged when anyone says they win just because they are staff.

Yuna1000 : If it's broken, by all means it should be fixed. However, I don't think it's so broken that only staff can win.

Sigh no one is saying it's impossible for non staff to win... yes it's about effort.. but staff have an advantage as well. 

to put it simply imagine playing a game where you can only do something 10 times to get points.. but your opponent can do it 15 times to get points... is that fair.... simply put nope...

Also if it's purely about effort making it a level playing field with only make your point more concrete that it's about effort right?

geeogree : simply put i like your ideas because they tweak little things, and they don't change the competition, but they just make it as fair as can be. 


Regardless people will always deny and claim its unfair/fair when they have the dis/advantage.. so meh., 

RUKX : until the staff advantage (whether through the allowable actions or the number of possible actions done) is addressed no one will feel like the competition is fair.

Though I imagine that you could win the competition without getting a single point in green. Posting, and writing guides/reviews would earn you points in yellow, blue and red pretty easily. Getting points in green is just a bonus.

Still, hopefully David is willing to implement the changes I've suggested to even things out and encourage more people to participate.



In the end though it is all about effort. If people put in the effort they can win without talking about the staff advantage. That's a cop out when they don't put in the effort to win but it does have some validity. It's hard to feel like you have a chance when you can't do as many things as other competitors can.

Mohammedroxx3 :
ZeeTee :

I think there's a risk with either approach. If we get rid of the limit or make it really high that's going to make it extremely easy for some people to dominate just doing one action, that's not really fun. Not to mention it'll also take out some of the challenge out of the competition. For me personally part of the challenge has always been being forced to do different actions to some extent that's what I see it as being about after all. Contributing to the site in a multitude of ways.

On the other hand if we restrict it so barely any actions count it might make it so non staff have a better chance. But it seems like it might take some of the fun out of the competition since members who would've otherwise competed won't because actions they like doing won't count. It's encouraging competition on the expense of another group which can easily backfire and just mean less overall participation. The problem with the green jersey is that if we look at it that way it's flawed by design. The green jersey is basically inherently easier for staff to get or even people that are just of a higher rank because of the limits unless we make it extremely restrictive and add a bunch of rules surrounding it. At the same time we don't really have much in terms of alternatives and I don't think most people would want it to be remade again.

That's why I think splitting up the overall jersey would be better because it's not restrictive in any way in terms of what actions people can do staff or trusted but it still adresses the advantage. Staff won't have to worry about the actions they're doing being unfair in the same way and they can still compete to their hearts content. It will make it so more non staff is participating because put it simply someone non staff is going to have to win the banner and that means people are likely going to try for it when they see they stand a chance of winning. Even if splitting up the competition entirely might feel like too big of a change at least having a non staff banner (for best non staff competitor) I think could make a big difference.

At the same time having more incentive I think is another big part of how we could make the TdV less dead. Like RDay said I think the idea of having a cosmetic banner just isn't motivation enough for most people to participate throughout a month. Maybe give the winner a permanent reward of some sort. A big Viz prize on top of what they're earning from participating (not like the team competition ones because those have always been pretty low) or some other special prize that's hard to get that's actually useful in some way. Make it so people who are even just competing for a day or two can also get something out of it.

So let's make the limit the local mod limit for the green jersey. That would even out the playing field because it's pretty rare (though not impossible) for a global+ to compete. That would allow everyone to do lots of actions but wouldn't give people unlimited screenshot or song ratings (which are some of the easiest to do).