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Should Bayonneta be banned in competitive play worldwide?

 
Yes, ban the witch
 
12.5%, 1 vote
No, Meta Knight in Brawl was more OP
 
87.5%, 7 votes
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04-10-16 12:18 PM
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A few days ago, news came out that Spain is about to ban Bayonetta from competitive play in Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS due to her being overpowered compared to the rest of the roster. Do you think she should be treated the same way as Meta Knight was in Brawl? Personally, I don't think Bayonetta should be treated the same was as Meta Knight was because honestly, this isn't quite as bad of a case as Meta Knight was, and from what I've heard, not a lot of people have been using her anyways, though the ones who do have used her have been doing a lot better in competitive play because of it.
A few days ago, news came out that Spain is about to ban Bayonetta from competitive play in Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS due to her being overpowered compared to the rest of the roster. Do you think she should be treated the same way as Meta Knight was in Brawl? Personally, I don't think Bayonetta should be treated the same was as Meta Knight was because honestly, this isn't quite as bad of a case as Meta Knight was, and from what I've heard, not a lot of people have been using her anyways, though the ones who do have used her have been doing a lot better in competitive play because of it.
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04-10-16 02:18 PM
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I definitely want to give my two cents on this.

For short, no, Bayonetta should not be banned quite yet. Even if this was a case as bad as Meta Knight in Brawl, there isn't enough proof when it comes to tournament results yet to warrant banning her.

I never competed and probably never will compete in Brawl, but I already know that Bayonetta is not Brawl Meta Knight. While her punish game can result in 0-to-death combos, much like Ice Climbers, she has an abysmal neutral game due to her horrible frame data (in other words, how quickly her first damage frame comes out of her moves and how quickly she can act out of her move after the last damage frame), which was the complete opposite in Meta Knight's case in Brawl.

Also, she's just way too new to start banning. The greater placements so far are most likely due to matchup inexperience, and will probably balance out if we give it just a few more months. Either way, Spain is acting WAY too quickly on considering this ban. The player base for the character isn't that large, and the results have yet to show her ban being warranted. Pre-patch Diddy Kong was worse.
I definitely want to give my two cents on this.

For short, no, Bayonetta should not be banned quite yet. Even if this was a case as bad as Meta Knight in Brawl, there isn't enough proof when it comes to tournament results yet to warrant banning her.

I never competed and probably never will compete in Brawl, but I already know that Bayonetta is not Brawl Meta Knight. While her punish game can result in 0-to-death combos, much like Ice Climbers, she has an abysmal neutral game due to her horrible frame data (in other words, how quickly her first damage frame comes out of her moves and how quickly she can act out of her move after the last damage frame), which was the complete opposite in Meta Knight's case in Brawl.

Also, she's just way too new to start banning. The greater placements so far are most likely due to matchup inexperience, and will probably balance out if we give it just a few more months. Either way, Spain is acting WAY too quickly on considering this ban. The player base for the character isn't that large, and the results have yet to show her ban being warranted. Pre-patch Diddy Kong was worse.
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04-10-16 03:00 PM
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She is totally cheap, but we've dealt with worse. Plus her results in Pound were...Shabby to say the least. She's tough, but not impossible to deal with. Although in the right hands she can seem totally unfair. But this is true with literally any character in the game.

With time people will learn how to counter Bayonetta. And the Spaniards who outlawed her will reconsider. She is really good, but not perfect.
She is totally cheap, but we've dealt with worse. Plus her results in Pound were...Shabby to say the least. She's tough, but not impossible to deal with. Although in the right hands she can seem totally unfair. But this is true with literally any character in the game.

With time people will learn how to counter Bayonetta. And the Spaniards who outlawed her will reconsider. She is really good, but not perfect.
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04-10-16 03:23 PM
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Bayonetta comes from an M-rated game. Sma4sh WAS rated T (due to the inclusion of Shulk). Now, by proxy, it is rated M. If Bayo b ban'd, then the game will return to being rated "T", although a minority of people will claim the game is E10+. This is why I approve the removal of Bayonetta and Shulk, and possibly every character besides Mario and Luigi, in order to return the game series to its roots and to give it an "E" rating. Super Mario Smash Bros. ftw!
Bayonetta comes from an M-rated game. Sma4sh WAS rated T (due to the inclusion of Shulk). Now, by proxy, it is rated M. If Bayo b ban'd, then the game will return to being rated "T", although a minority of people will claim the game is E10+. This is why I approve the removal of Bayonetta and Shulk, and possibly every character besides Mario and Luigi, in order to return the game series to its roots and to give it an "E" rating. Super Mario Smash Bros. ftw!
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04-10-16 06:28 PM
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supernerd117 : You bring a valuable point. Look at Brawl, we had Solid Snake as one of the fighters and he came from a M-rated series, and Brawl had a "T" rank.

Plus if you look at it, 1/2 of the roster is from an E-rated series and 7/16 is from a T-rated series and 1/16 is from a M-rated series. I think it depends on where the scale is fallen on, if we have more T/M-rated characters than E-rated characters, we'll have a T-rated game, but if we have more E-rated characters than T/M-rates characters, then we'll have an E10+-rated game, I think that's how it goes.
supernerd117 : You bring a valuable point. Look at Brawl, we had Solid Snake as one of the fighters and he came from a M-rated series, and Brawl had a "T" rank.

Plus if you look at it, 1/2 of the roster is from an E-rated series and 7/16 is from a T-rated series and 1/16 is from a M-rated series. I think it depends on where the scale is fallen on, if we have more T/M-rated characters than E-rated characters, we'll have a T-rated game, but if we have more E-rated characters than T/M-rates characters, then we'll have an E10+-rated game, I think that's how it goes.
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04-10-16 07:05 PM
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I'm not really into the Smash 4 scene, since I prefer Project M and Melee, but from what I know and have seen I don't think that Bayonetta should be banned. I understand that she may be overpowered, since she has a lot of combo potential in a game where there's a higher emphasis on hard reads and zoning rather than stringing combos together and not allowing your opponent time to recover. I can see why people compare her to Meta Knight in Brawl. But there are a few things that make her different from Meta Knight, which people have pointed out already below but I'll say again anyways.

For one thing, she doesn't have the strongest neutral game. Her frame data isn't the best, and starting combos depends more on reading your opponent and catching them making mistakes (whereas Meta Knight can start a combo at any time, even when he's in the middle of getting combo'd because of his ridiculous transcendental priority).

In addition, like a couple of people have said earlier, she's still fairly new, so while it may look like Bayonetta is unbeatable, I don't think she's been out long enough for anyone to know exactly how OP she is at this point.

Thirdly, literally anyone (maybe not Little Mac but almost anyone), can beat anyone in this game. That's how they designed the game. Top level players can choose from a large cast of characters with varying playstyles, whether it be projectile heavy characters that use projectiles to rack up damage and outzone their opponents (i.e. Toon Link and Mega Man), power centered characters that hit hard and need to read their opponents and punish off of mistakes (i.e. Ganondorf and Bowser), speed characters that rely on their mobility to outmanuveur their opponent to beat them (i.e Sonic, Captain Falcon), specialty characters that have specific mechanics of their gameplay that they utilize to beat opponents (i.e Shulk's Monado powers, Marth's tipper mechanic), etc. If a character can be properly utilized based on their playstyle, adhering to their strengths and accommodating for their weaknesses, pretty much anyone has the capability of being good. Essentially what I'm saying is that who knows how to use their character well can (not necessarily will but can) knock off the best players.

Finally, unlike Meta Knight, who's data can't be changed, patches can be released that can NERF Bayonetta and reduce the combo potential she has. While this doesn't necessarily mean that this is going to happen, it does mean that the possibility is there, which is something that never existed with Meta Knight in Brawl.

To sum everything up, while Bayonetta may be the best character in he game, I don't think that the character should b banned because Bayonetta does still have weaknesses and can be changed to make the competitive scene more fair. Also, I'm not a big fan of the "M-rated character argument", as that shouldn't really matter.
I'm not really into the Smash 4 scene, since I prefer Project M and Melee, but from what I know and have seen I don't think that Bayonetta should be banned. I understand that she may be overpowered, since she has a lot of combo potential in a game where there's a higher emphasis on hard reads and zoning rather than stringing combos together and not allowing your opponent time to recover. I can see why people compare her to Meta Knight in Brawl. But there are a few things that make her different from Meta Knight, which people have pointed out already below but I'll say again anyways.

For one thing, she doesn't have the strongest neutral game. Her frame data isn't the best, and starting combos depends more on reading your opponent and catching them making mistakes (whereas Meta Knight can start a combo at any time, even when he's in the middle of getting combo'd because of his ridiculous transcendental priority).

In addition, like a couple of people have said earlier, she's still fairly new, so while it may look like Bayonetta is unbeatable, I don't think she's been out long enough for anyone to know exactly how OP she is at this point.

Thirdly, literally anyone (maybe not Little Mac but almost anyone), can beat anyone in this game. That's how they designed the game. Top level players can choose from a large cast of characters with varying playstyles, whether it be projectile heavy characters that use projectiles to rack up damage and outzone their opponents (i.e. Toon Link and Mega Man), power centered characters that hit hard and need to read their opponents and punish off of mistakes (i.e. Ganondorf and Bowser), speed characters that rely on their mobility to outmanuveur their opponent to beat them (i.e Sonic, Captain Falcon), specialty characters that have specific mechanics of their gameplay that they utilize to beat opponents (i.e Shulk's Monado powers, Marth's tipper mechanic), etc. If a character can be properly utilized based on their playstyle, adhering to their strengths and accommodating for their weaknesses, pretty much anyone has the capability of being good. Essentially what I'm saying is that who knows how to use their character well can (not necessarily will but can) knock off the best players.

Finally, unlike Meta Knight, who's data can't be changed, patches can be released that can NERF Bayonetta and reduce the combo potential she has. While this doesn't necessarily mean that this is going to happen, it does mean that the possibility is there, which is something that never existed with Meta Knight in Brawl.

To sum everything up, while Bayonetta may be the best character in he game, I don't think that the character should b banned because Bayonetta does still have weaknesses and can be changed to make the competitive scene more fair. Also, I'm not a big fan of the "M-rated character argument", as that shouldn't really matter.
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04-10-16 07:58 PM
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Of course, in what other place but Spain could these news happen? There's no other country that is as much of a joke as we are.

Like MMM said, Smash Bros. is a series were almost anyone can beat anyone, so I honestly don't see the need of banning any character, even less a character as new as her. True is that people will exploit the potential of an overpowered character to the extreme, but in a game like Smash Bros that's not as much as an issue, because the moveset isn't as unlimited as in other fighting games and can get predictable over time.

The M-rated character has nothing to do. Sure, people will be eager to see which game they took the character from, but that doesn't mean any game that character stars in will be immediately changed to M, simply because that rating is given according to the gameplay and dialogues. Plus, we all know what Smash is about, so even if they gave it a +18 rating we would still encourage kids to play it because it's not harmful.

All in all, I think she shouldn't be banned. Competitive players always make wonders with any kind of character. We cannot ban a character from being annoying to battle against, we must ban characters when they break the game. Or well, we can because we're Spain and 115% of our rulings/decisions/laws/whatever is a complete joke.
Of course, in what other place but Spain could these news happen? There's no other country that is as much of a joke as we are.

Like MMM said, Smash Bros. is a series were almost anyone can beat anyone, so I honestly don't see the need of banning any character, even less a character as new as her. True is that people will exploit the potential of an overpowered character to the extreme, but in a game like Smash Bros that's not as much as an issue, because the moveset isn't as unlimited as in other fighting games and can get predictable over time.

The M-rated character has nothing to do. Sure, people will be eager to see which game they took the character from, but that doesn't mean any game that character stars in will be immediately changed to M, simply because that rating is given according to the gameplay and dialogues. Plus, we all know what Smash is about, so even if they gave it a +18 rating we would still encourage kids to play it because it's not harmful.

All in all, I think she shouldn't be banned. Competitive players always make wonders with any kind of character. We cannot ban a character from being annoying to battle against, we must ban characters when they break the game. Or well, we can because we're Spain and 115% of our rulings/decisions/laws/whatever is a complete joke.
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04-10-16 09:16 PM
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No characters should be banned.
Git gud!

People complain too much about characters instead of learning how to play these days... 
No characters should be banned.
Git gud!

People complain too much about characters instead of learning how to play these days... 
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IgorBird122 :
megamanmaniac :
EX Palen :

I didn't mean to set off a debate...I just wanted to troll ;-;
IgorBird122 :
megamanmaniac :
EX Palen :

I didn't mean to set off a debate...I just wanted to troll ;-;
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Vanelan : You speak the truth.

As much as I love the Smash 4 community, a great majority of us are more content with whining and sitting around, waiting for a patch to just fix all of our problems for us.

I play a character seen as pretty weak without a secondary in the game, specifically Kirby. I've already dealt with matchups that are worse nearly on average than almost any matchup that most of the top tier and high tier characters are forced to play (in fact, aside from Mario and Zero Suit Samus (and potentially Sheik), I lose rather hard to almost every high tier character and up in the cast). When did people forget to start adapting to matchups?

I have a little bit of notoriety for speaking my mind about characters and matchups I don't like to play, but people are okay with my complaining because they know that I'll be spending the next two days gathering info and understanding the dos and don'ts of the matchup I was complaining about.

While I don't play Melee any longer competitively, my time there taught me to remain patient with matchups and slowly grind them until you're better than you were before. I wish that came back for the average Smash 4 player's mentality.
Vanelan : You speak the truth.

As much as I love the Smash 4 community, a great majority of us are more content with whining and sitting around, waiting for a patch to just fix all of our problems for us.

I play a character seen as pretty weak without a secondary in the game, specifically Kirby. I've already dealt with matchups that are worse nearly on average than almost any matchup that most of the top tier and high tier characters are forced to play (in fact, aside from Mario and Zero Suit Samus (and potentially Sheik), I lose rather hard to almost every high tier character and up in the cast). When did people forget to start adapting to matchups?

I have a little bit of notoriety for speaking my mind about characters and matchups I don't like to play, but people are okay with my complaining because they know that I'll be spending the next two days gathering info and understanding the dos and don'ts of the matchup I was complaining about.

While I don't play Melee any longer competitively, my time there taught me to remain patient with matchups and slowly grind them until you're better than you were before. I wish that came back for the average Smash 4 player's mentality.
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SWTerra : I think Blizzard's community is the worst when it comes to this. A lot worse than Nintendo's at least.
SWTerra : I think Blizzard's community is the worst when it comes to this. A lot worse than Nintendo's at least.
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   As much as I hate Bayonetta, and would love to see her get nerfed, I do not think she needs to be banned. Even if she's the strongest, she's not invincible, or as far ahead as the rest of the cast like Meta Knight from Brawl. Also, she's still new, so players may still be getting used to how she plays. Who knows, some matchups could become less favorable for her over time if we see some more of her. Just outright banning her isn't going to help with that at all.
   Also, if we keep her in, and wins every major tournament, beating ZeRo every time, maybe Sakurai will just nerf her again, and everything will be fine again.
   As much as I hate Bayonetta, and would love to see her get nerfed, I do not think she needs to be banned. Even if she's the strongest, she's not invincible, or as far ahead as the rest of the cast like Meta Knight from Brawl. Also, she's still new, so players may still be getting used to how she plays. Who knows, some matchups could become less favorable for her over time if we see some more of her. Just outright banning her isn't going to help with that at all.
   Also, if we keep her in, and wins every major tournament, beating ZeRo every time, maybe Sakurai will just nerf her again, and everything will be fine again.
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04-11-16 03:54 PM
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Vanelan : Don't want to get too off-topic, so I'll keep this short.

Blizzard's responsible for World of Warcraft, right? I don't know their community, but I do know, as far as those that I HAVE been a part of, that Smash 4's competitive scene has way too much whining.

Pre-patch Diddy? Fine. I'll give them that one; I hated him too. I just wish everyone was buffed to his standard instead of him being nerfed to the rest of the cast's standards. Sheik (until this most recent patch)? Fine. I didn't have much of a problem against her once I knew the matchup, but I understand Kirby has some nice advantages in the matchup that most characters don't have, so that may be why I never really found her as a concern. But Bayonetta has gotten ten times the flak, and I don't think she even lays a finger on pre-patch Diddy. It just seems like as the metagame for this game evolves and grows, the player base rewinds. It sucks. Even pre-patch Diddy was given time before people started campaigning for her ban at every tournament ever.

Back on topic a bit, I just happened upon one of NickRiddle's old posts on Facebook from a couple of years back complaining that Florida wasn't getting as much attention for Brawl due to the entire state banning Meta Knight, and while players were complaining about it, they were doing nothing to prevent it, as they were still going to those tournaments that banned the character. This is a super good parallel to the situation. People are complaining that Bayonetta is ridiculous and stupid, but they've done nothing as players to combat that or prove their points. You can say "OP" all you want, but if you're not out there practicing the matchups yourself and learning to deal with said character, then you have no credibility when you say so. I can make any character I know well enough look OP if I play against people who haven't made the effort to learn how to play against that character. That's not a valid argument without practice and efforts being made.
Vanelan : Don't want to get too off-topic, so I'll keep this short.

Blizzard's responsible for World of Warcraft, right? I don't know their community, but I do know, as far as those that I HAVE been a part of, that Smash 4's competitive scene has way too much whining.

Pre-patch Diddy? Fine. I'll give them that one; I hated him too. I just wish everyone was buffed to his standard instead of him being nerfed to the rest of the cast's standards. Sheik (until this most recent patch)? Fine. I didn't have much of a problem against her once I knew the matchup, but I understand Kirby has some nice advantages in the matchup that most characters don't have, so that may be why I never really found her as a concern. But Bayonetta has gotten ten times the flak, and I don't think she even lays a finger on pre-patch Diddy. It just seems like as the metagame for this game evolves and grows, the player base rewinds. It sucks. Even pre-patch Diddy was given time before people started campaigning for her ban at every tournament ever.

Back on topic a bit, I just happened upon one of NickRiddle's old posts on Facebook from a couple of years back complaining that Florida wasn't getting as much attention for Brawl due to the entire state banning Meta Knight, and while players were complaining about it, they were doing nothing to prevent it, as they were still going to those tournaments that banned the character. This is a super good parallel to the situation. People are complaining that Bayonetta is ridiculous and stupid, but they've done nothing as players to combat that or prove their points. You can say "OP" all you want, but if you're not out there practicing the matchups yourself and learning to deal with said character, then you have no credibility when you say so. I can make any character I know well enough look OP if I play against people who haven't made the effort to learn how to play against that character. That's not a valid argument without practice and efforts being made.
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SWTerra : Yes, they are behind Starcraft. Warcraft, Heroes of the Storm, etc.
But I mention it because the "fan-base" ruins the games when they complain and the company listens to them.

If they start doing the same with Smash, I think it will result in the same issues. 
Everyone might as well play the same character if they are gonna nerf everything because someone cries about how they can't beat a particular character.
SWTerra : Yes, they are behind Starcraft. Warcraft, Heroes of the Storm, etc.
But I mention it because the "fan-base" ruins the games when they complain and the company listens to them.

If they start doing the same with Smash, I think it will result in the same issues. 
Everyone might as well play the same character if they are gonna nerf everything because someone cries about how they can't beat a particular character.
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New information has surfaced, and now Russia joins Spain in banning Bayonetta from tournaments. Even Florida has experienced some of this unbalance, with a Smasher by the name of Riot winning against both M2K and Ryo 3-1 after picking Bayonetta up (he was previously a Donkey Kong main). https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4eqewt/the_russian_smash_scene_has_banned_bayonetta/d22hom5

Not sure what this means for other regions if Bayonetta stays untouched with her combos by patches, but even I have to agree that Bayonetta's main combo tools knocking back every character the same (her up-B and side-B treat knockback on every character the same, as if they were 100 weight, regardless of their actual weight, and nullifies gravity) is insane. That nullifies the one advantage that floaties normally have against the rest of the cast of being hard to combo. Source of this fact: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4ek7pz/confirmed_bayonettas_up_and_side_b_only_account/

Might pick up Jigglypuff again, just for this matchup, after some thinking. The combos are still affected by fall speed, so Jigglypuff's low fall speed can help her escape. She can also Rest out of many over-extensions committed by Bayo for easy kills on mistakes.

I'm not sure what to think about Bayo anymore. I think Kirby can win the matchup himself thanks to his good neutral play, but at the same time it's clear that she can lay waste to a large portion of the cast with her zero-death combos. I agree with M2K that I don't want to see her banned, but she's slowly starting to gain more traction, and with that, comes an increase in her notoriety. I hope Nintendo's balancing crew is paying attention to these regional character bans, and realizes that more patches might be necessary to balance her out properly (and realize that making easy-bake combos more easy-bake is not the way to go; while it makes sense in Melee where everyone can combo rather effectively, Smash 4 is not the same game).
New information has surfaced, and now Russia joins Spain in banning Bayonetta from tournaments. Even Florida has experienced some of this unbalance, with a Smasher by the name of Riot winning against both M2K and Ryo 3-1 after picking Bayonetta up (he was previously a Donkey Kong main). https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4eqewt/the_russian_smash_scene_has_banned_bayonetta/d22hom5

Not sure what this means for other regions if Bayonetta stays untouched with her combos by patches, but even I have to agree that Bayonetta's main combo tools knocking back every character the same (her up-B and side-B treat knockback on every character the same, as if they were 100 weight, regardless of their actual weight, and nullifies gravity) is insane. That nullifies the one advantage that floaties normally have against the rest of the cast of being hard to combo. Source of this fact: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4ek7pz/confirmed_bayonettas_up_and_side_b_only_account/

Might pick up Jigglypuff again, just for this matchup, after some thinking. The combos are still affected by fall speed, so Jigglypuff's low fall speed can help her escape. She can also Rest out of many over-extensions committed by Bayo for easy kills on mistakes.

I'm not sure what to think about Bayo anymore. I think Kirby can win the matchup himself thanks to his good neutral play, but at the same time it's clear that she can lay waste to a large portion of the cast with her zero-death combos. I agree with M2K that I don't want to see her banned, but she's slowly starting to gain more traction, and with that, comes an increase in her notoriety. I hope Nintendo's balancing crew is paying attention to these regional character bans, and realizes that more patches might be necessary to balance her out properly (and realize that making easy-bake combos more easy-bake is not the way to go; while it makes sense in Melee where everyone can combo rather effectively, Smash 4 is not the same game).
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