Davideo7 : So I have some thoughts on changes to the red and green jersey I think would be good to implement in order to make it more fair and hopefully encourage more elite and below members to participate.

1. Make actions restricted to or made easier by being staff+ not count (green jersey)

This is mostly for green, speficially character adding but also other actions that would be relevant since you can do it at a very high speed being staff+ but would have to wait to get each action approved if you're not staff which is not really viable in what is a daily competition.

2. Make actions past the regular member action limit not count (red jersey and green jersey)

Mainly for green again. I think actions you make for green should not count once you've reached the regular member limit, obviously you'd still get Viz and CP but it shouldn't count for the TdV. I say this because it is another reason the green jersey is near impossible for elite and below to win overall because of staff+ having higher limits for things like moving ebay listings and thereby simply by wanting it enough can literally make it impossible for others to win it.

3. Make the CP multiplier not count ( red jersey)

This is probably a controversial idea. Personally I would prefer the CP multiplier not existing at all but that may seem a bit radical.. I think it could also work to simply not have it count for the red jersey. So while you'd still gain CP according to the multiplier the results for red would show up as if everyone had the 1x multiplier (assuming that can be done?) this is to give newer members a better chance to win red since as it stands right now those who have been around can essentially win the jersey doing only 2/3rds of the work a regular member (even less if you factor in the 2nd point I brought up).

This would have the side effect of also forcing people to do a lot of different actions to be able to consistently win the green jersey and in some cases the red jersey (unless someone posts something like a huge guide) to be able to win it consistently. Which would in turn also make winning it even more of an accomplishment and more enjoyable.

Addressing potential staff concerns:

Now one could argue this is essentially taking away incentive from site staff + but I just see it as making the competition more balanced and fair. This would make it a possibility for elite and below to actually go for the overall jersey without having to put a crazy amount of extra work compared to staff+ the incentive besides helping out the site for exceeding the limit would that you'd still get CP and Viz. I think it could also encourage people to be more consistent in their contributions. In other words in stead of doing a bunch of work 1 or 2 days a month and then barely doing anything the other 28 it would encourage you to spread it out more. Either way TdV shouldn't be the reason someone does their staff job in the first place even if it can serve as somewhat of a motivator.

Edit: To add onto what I said about staff contributions being more consistent this obviously wouldn't affect reviewers, guide makers and article writers though.

Nvm about option 2, I misread the post. I agree with the first idea though.

The only one I don't agree with is option 3, since every one of us that have reached 10k deserve to have the multiplier count towards our CP totals. It may not seem fair to the other users, but if you want to have a better chance of earning red, you should contribute enough to the site to deserve it.

gamerforlifeforever2 : Keep in mind that I presented an altnernative solution, you'd still gain the bonus of the CP multiplier it just wouldn't count for the TdV specifically to make it fair. After all it doesn't make sense for one person being able to win the red jersey doing less work than someone else just because they've been around using the site for longer. So this would make the competition fair while still retaining a bonus for people who have helped out in the past.

Now personally I'd just like to see the CP multiplier be gotten rid of and keep a Viz multiplier solely. Because since all CP does is give you somewhat of a measure of your site contributions and bragging rights and it doesn't have an actual use having a multiplier for it in the first place serves no real purpose other than make the numbers look bigger than they should be (in my opinion).

I completely disagree with what you're saying about the CP multiplier. As far as what could truly help the TDV be more fair and balanced, the one thing that would truly make it more balanced is removing Staff actions from green completely. They've already been removed from the red competition, so there's no reason why they should remain in the green competition, especially when certain staff CP actions already don't count towards the TDV anyway, like game adding, graphic adding and game content. So Character Editing, Franchise Editing, Removing Ebay Listing would all no longer count toward the TDV if David decides to actually make the green jersey fair to everyone.

I actually made that point in the past, but David doesn't seem to want to change it...

gamerforlifeforever2 : I did mention that, that's literally the first point I mentioned I even expanded it with actions that can be performed much faster by staff along with the 2nd point even being about limiting actions. I agree it's a change that should be implemented but it only helps balance out green more (and not entirely on its own) while doing nothing to make the red jersey more accessible only dealing with one side of the coin. As it stands now those who have accumulated a lot of CP have a huge advantage for red to the point where winning it if you haven't been around for long requires much more work when there really shouldn't be a difference in the effort you have to put in.

I don't think getting rid of the multiplier towards TdV, or get rid of it completely, isn't a good idea. True, it gives an advantage in Red for the old and most active users, but it's currently the only incentive we can give new users to contribute. So basically, we're making competition more balanced at the cost of potential site activity, which isn't at its peak right now so as to risk it. 

On another note, do you really think it makes a big difference to have a high multiplier? Most actions give little amount of CP, so it's not that troublesome. It makes a difference in great earnings like reviews or guides, but just for those two cases we shouldn't get rid of the multipliers, we clearly have more serious business to deal with.

Removing staff actions from Green? Well, why not. We already have a few actions limited to one or none, and seeing the great amount of varied actions we can do, coupled with the higher daily limits, it does make it unbalanced. Talking about daily limits, I don't think the limit should be that of a normal member, but rather Trusted member instead. Remember that Trusted and Elite also participate (the latter not very frequently, though, as the team is mostly dead anyways) and their daily limits are substantially higher than normal members, and besides there aren't many normal members competing that much anymore.

EX Palen : I would argue it's the opposite of an incentive. Deters new users from even trying to compete once they realize they have next to no chance getting the jersey. I think just having a Viz multiplier would serve as a motivator (since it is typically much more valuable to newbies) while still making the TdV fair for everyone. CP doesn't actually have any use outside of bragging rights and there isn't really much to brag about if it's a multiplier everyone has which decreases the value of CP meaning it essentially just bloats the numbers defeating the purpose of it in the first place.

Even so the CP multiplier wouldn't have to be removed to implement this if going by my suggestion. It could still stay active outside of the TdV which as it is now is likely the better idea because entirely disabling it at this point would be unfair to those who haven't attained it. So if you earned it 150 cp in a day thanks to the 1.5x multiplier only 100 of that would count towards the red jersey, essentially meaning that the results would always be based on 1x multiplier no exceptions. It is that way for all actions not just articles, reviews and guides.

It does make a huge difference a 50% increase in CP gain goes a long way in the competition in particular when we that have been around already have advantages with staff restricted actions and due to simply being more used to it. I do think it should be based on the normal member limit because that eliminates any bias as the normal member status can be attained very easily. I don't see any reason for why restricting this to trusted+ would be a good thing?. I think part of the reason regular members don't even try to participate is because they simply don't really have a chance of staying competitive.

Zlinqx : Aren't you going a bit overboard? It's just a competition, after all. It's true that it should be kept as balanced as possible, but not every time you can keep it balanced for everyone. Check any sports competition to find out and you will see that the spotlight always relies on a select few, no matter which changes are brought forth.

Even with the "unbalanced" competition we've had in the last year, how many normal members have made a top 10 despite being at disadvantage? At most, two. How many Trusted or Elite members have made a top 10 in that time despite also being at disadvantage? At the very least, eight. That's why I said the limit should be at least Trusted member, they're trying very hard against all the odds they're facing, something normal members aren't doing. And technically, normal members should try even harder so as to attract attention from the community and have their contribution recognized by being given the Trusted status. This is why I'm skeptical about normal users joining the TdV even after all the changes you suggest, so making changes focused on a range of users that is already participating seems a good move imo.

I also want to raise the example of a certain someone who placed in the top 3 by only aiming at two jerseys. This certain someone, who shall remain anonymous for now, is the clearest example that you can place in the top 10 with ease by participating actively and focusing your efforts in certain sections of the competition. We're only discussing two of the four jerseys in here, so why doesn't people try to aim for the other two? I have personally made a top 10 finish without much effort, and while I admit it was under special circumstances (low activity, trips to Dairy Queen...), I also only focused in two jerseys. 

Let's not go overboard with this, because no competition is perfect. Remember how the Red and Green jerseys have been overhauled to allow for something else than posting to be recognized, and yet here we are, discussing how to make them more balanced, four years after the TdV started.

EX Palen : You still haven't explained to me what is bad about this. I think this would be a good change because it would also make the competition more varied, and still retain bonus for those who have earned a lot of CP OUTSIDE of the TdV and encourage competition
 We can't always keep it balanced but even implementing one of these suggestions would do a lot in my opinion. I don't see why it is going overboard just because it's change, it's not like I proposed an entirely new jersey. Placing in the top 10 isn't hard with just a little effort, that's because normal and trusted can still compete on equal terms for blue and yellow. But placing in the top 3 or winning as a normal-elite member is, give me one of example of someone trusted or elite placing 3rd or up within the last 10 TdVs. The only one I can think off is endings and he was writing an insane amount of reviews to make that happen. Green and red overall shouldn't be nearly locked off to staff+

I don't see what is actually benefitial about restricting it to trusted. Just because less regular members aren't participating seems like a weird reason if anything we should encourage normal members by giving them a good fighting chance. Just because it's technically possible to place in the top 3 getting yellow and blue it doesn't make it anymore fair.

It is subjective people can go months earning tons of cp for the site without getting it while some can get in their first few days of registering. It is most of the time not given based on site contribution but how much you like/trust another member. 

As an ex TdV competitor I just thought I'd give what input I can on what I think could make the competition better. Doesn't mean david will implement any one of these but I'm going to at least try pitching it.

Zlinqx : Last ten TdVs means dating back to Autumn 2013. Let's see what we have:

Autumn 2013 top 3: Razor (Trusted), Bara (Member) and tgags (Staff)

Winter 2014 top 3: EideticMemory (started as newbie, ended as Trusted), Bintsy (Trusted) and moha (Trusted)

Spring 2014 top 3: Zander (Trusted), MMM (Elite) and David

Summer 2014 top 3: pacman1755 (Staff), David and tgags (Elite)

Autumn 2014 top 3: David, Zander (Local) and endings (Member)

Winter 2015 top 3: Igor (Local), Zander (Local) and Ferdinand (Staff)

Spring 2015 top 3: Zander (Staff), Ferdinand (Staff) and janus (Trusted)

Summer 2015 top 3: Zlinqx, Zander and gamer (all Staff)

Autumn 2015 top 3: gamer, janus and Yuna (all Staff)

Winter 2016 top 3: janus (Staff), Zander (Staff) and David

True, there's a recent trend where Staff reign supreme. One of those staff, however, was able to reign supreme before being given such rank, and his performance hasn't diminished after his promotion. It should be worth noted that the new Red and Green jerseys started in Summer 2014, and in that competition, pacman snatched overall Red and also the win.

The problem is that the most active members have been made staff+ for their dedication and contributions, which is only logical. The solution to this would be new members kicking in, and we all know THAT is the real problem, simply judging to the last White Banner competition. Plus, the current pool of members, Trusted and Elite which are eager to participate is very low, and personally I don't see most of them participating even with the changes you mention.

 EX Palen : Note how the amount of elite and below in the top 3 has noticeably dropped ever since the green jersey was updated. Not saying that it was better  way back when because obviously there were a lot of problems with it in it's foundation like the spammy nature but it didn't give staff and up an advantage. Also note that I'm not saying this will magically increase the TdV activity to new heights but I think it will help and since I still don't see anything but positive things coming out of this change outside of taking a bit of time to implement

Not just with making things more fair and activity but also making the competition more competitive, prestigious and varied. I think the reason some members don't feel excited is because they don't feel like they have much of a chance at winning compared to staff and above.

I think this would give new members a better chance of being recognized for contributions, the TdV can be a great way to be noticed and through that also become more involved and invested into the community so I think it can help (to a certain extent) at that front too.

Please tell me what the negative impact this change would have that would make it a bad idea, because I'm not seeing it so far.

Zlinqx : The amount of Elite and lower in the top 3 has dropped because most of them have been upgraded to staff. Note that, of the list I provided, only endings has never been staff or higher, while all the rest have been or are currently staff or higher. Don't take the blame on the Green jersey or the TdV, it's just that non-staff members simply don't contribute much or aren't active enough, regardless of being a TdV month or not.

There aren't many negative impacts on these changes, but I do feel like you're making it too restrictive. After all, the key to improvement is to stand tall against all odds and try your best to overcome them. That's why I'm saying the limit should be that of a Trusted member. Let me show it more deeply:

-Elites have their daily limits lowered a bit, which doesn't make much of a change considering most Elites are former staff, and thus are "retired" members.

-All staff have their limits noticeably reduced. Considering how they've reigned supreme, it's logical to limit their "powers" to give other users a chance.

-Normal members are at a slight disadvantage, but that is what would encourage them to compete. If they can face or beat all ranks above them, even when said ranks have a slight advantage (the change from normal to Trusted on daily limits isn't that high anyway), it will put the spotlight upon them and make the competition worthy of the challenge for them.

I'll say again that your measures are far too restrictive upon staff. I agree the staff team is currently very active, but only because we want to encourage other users to also be active by being a good example to follow. I don't see this as a reason to put such severe limits. There were times where staff did barely a top 5, and we're in a time where staff makes the full top 10. Times change, and while we must adequate to the circumstances, it's too big of a change in a small gap of time.

EX Palen : I think they simply don't stand as much of a chance as they used to. And I don't see what I'm making be so restrictive, the cp multiplier change wouldn't be restricting anything only making the numbers that show up smaller, the other two changes are only preventing advantages staff+ have from having an effect on the competition making it less restrictive in the sense that everyone has a good chance if they put in the effort.

Being a normal member winning the competition would already be very hard unless said member has been around for a while because they're not as familiar with things and will still have to learn how each function works. I don't see why they should have it slightly harder just because of that, it would still be very impressive if a regular member won the whole TdV doing that.

Again not being restrictive. None of these changes would apply outside of the TdV hence it's not going to prevent staff from doing their job or getting the CP and Viz for doing so. It's only going to count within the TdV which it is their choice to participate in and not part of their staff duties. It's not restricting when all you're doing is simply lowering people to the same level as everyone else. Restricting would be making staff be at a disadvantage. And this is reason I brought it up just after a TdV has been completed because there's plenty of time to discuss this before the next one were it to be implemented (even if then might be later) and it won't impact any ongoing TdV.