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Is feminism necessary?

 

02-27-15 08:04 AM
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02-27-15 11:47 AM
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Super Mega Man 568 :  I'll try this once and I'm not confident it will work.  Here we go.

You're a 13 year old kid and you don't yet realize the long reaching consequences of what you're doing right now.  I'm interested to see what kind of action any of the mods take with you actively threatening me.  I don't want you to get banned but you should realize saying something like this is a bad idea.  You tell enough people you are armed and you'll run into someone who actually is and they aren't afraid to shoot (or shoot back).  There is no good result from this.

Second, I was in the Marines for six years.  America is pretty good at cranking out warriors and weapons and I did that for a while in the infantry.  You may have a gun but that doesn't mean anything.  I have seen what it's like to kill people and it's the ugliest thing anyone can do to someone else.  Violence is the worst thing humans do to each other.

Third, anger is a simple emotion and a lot of people understand it.  It's also not a very manly emotion.  I assume you're male and real men control their emotions and funnel those emotions into positive behaviors to help others.  Shooting people does nothing helpful.  

Maybe you'll read this and take it under consideration.  Maybe you won't.  Maybe you'll get banned.  Maybe not.  But when you walk around with such a negative attitude, of course things aren't going to fall into place.  I wonder if you're the kind of guy that blames everyone else, circumstance, and your environment for everything that goes wrong.  Those folks don't succeed in life, even if their parents are rich and they think they're smart.

I hope the best for you.  You're a kid so there's time to learn and turn this all around.

Think about it.
Super Mega Man 568 :  I'll try this once and I'm not confident it will work.  Here we go.

You're a 13 year old kid and you don't yet realize the long reaching consequences of what you're doing right now.  I'm interested to see what kind of action any of the mods take with you actively threatening me.  I don't want you to get banned but you should realize saying something like this is a bad idea.  You tell enough people you are armed and you'll run into someone who actually is and they aren't afraid to shoot (or shoot back).  There is no good result from this.

Second, I was in the Marines for six years.  America is pretty good at cranking out warriors and weapons and I did that for a while in the infantry.  You may have a gun but that doesn't mean anything.  I have seen what it's like to kill people and it's the ugliest thing anyone can do to someone else.  Violence is the worst thing humans do to each other.

Third, anger is a simple emotion and a lot of people understand it.  It's also not a very manly emotion.  I assume you're male and real men control their emotions and funnel those emotions into positive behaviors to help others.  Shooting people does nothing helpful.  

Maybe you'll read this and take it under consideration.  Maybe you won't.  Maybe you'll get banned.  Maybe not.  But when you walk around with such a negative attitude, of course things aren't going to fall into place.  I wonder if you're the kind of guy that blames everyone else, circumstance, and your environment for everything that goes wrong.  Those folks don't succeed in life, even if their parents are rich and they think they're smart.

I hope the best for you.  You're a kid so there's time to learn and turn this all around.

Think about it.
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02-27-15 12:22 PM
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Like all things on this earth... Everyone has an opinion. 

Do we need feminism? Not  really, but then again we don't need a lot of things that are pivotal in our economy and government. 

The way i see it is that it's human nature to ignore problems unless they are a victim of it.. Or it's affected their lives in somewhat.. To simplify we are a very selfish race that only care about things that happens to us. 

The problem with statistics is that it's very skewed as well.  for example 

warmaker : hope you don't mind me using this statistic as an example.. It's not to disprove you just it's the first one i saw

"Currently, women make up just over 51% of the population but around 21% of political offices"

My honest first thought was, Well it's relative to how many women want a career in politics. Maybe there are less women actively seeking jobs in that department hence the lower percentage, or perhaps there is a gender bias for that sector who knows.

What I'm trying to say that statistics whilst help with proving points can also raise more questions than what they answer.... 

Also another thing to consider is that with every "campaign" for or against something you will have people who take it to radical lengths... and will literally use it as almost a "slogan" to define anything that will or has ever happened to them. 

For example the whole gamer gate thing that is still annoying from birth to now... It's full of essentially two sets of radical people insulting each other and essentially creating a ouroboros  effect where they literally just fuel each other to argue even more.... 

So do we need feminism... Maybe/Maybe not.. It really depends on the situation... There's too many variables to really say if it's right or not... but i agree the name is misleading... It's to campaign for equality, not for females to take control.... which even some feminists seem to not understand. 

Now if people were to understand the above point and the question was  "Do we need to campaign for equality?" I expect most of the replies to be positive... 

Super Mega Man 568 : Let's stick to the thread topic please... Let the mods do their own thing... 
warmaker :

TL/DR Let's just help each other instead of trying to prove who is wrong and who is right...
Like all things on this earth... Everyone has an opinion. 

Do we need feminism? Not  really, but then again we don't need a lot of things that are pivotal in our economy and government. 

The way i see it is that it's human nature to ignore problems unless they are a victim of it.. Or it's affected their lives in somewhat.. To simplify we are a very selfish race that only care about things that happens to us. 

The problem with statistics is that it's very skewed as well.  for example 

warmaker : hope you don't mind me using this statistic as an example.. It's not to disprove you just it's the first one i saw

"Currently, women make up just over 51% of the population but around 21% of political offices"

My honest first thought was, Well it's relative to how many women want a career in politics. Maybe there are less women actively seeking jobs in that department hence the lower percentage, or perhaps there is a gender bias for that sector who knows.

What I'm trying to say that statistics whilst help with proving points can also raise more questions than what they answer.... 

Also another thing to consider is that with every "campaign" for or against something you will have people who take it to radical lengths... and will literally use it as almost a "slogan" to define anything that will or has ever happened to them. 

For example the whole gamer gate thing that is still annoying from birth to now... It's full of essentially two sets of radical people insulting each other and essentially creating a ouroboros  effect where they literally just fuel each other to argue even more.... 

So do we need feminism... Maybe/Maybe not.. It really depends on the situation... There's too many variables to really say if it's right or not... but i agree the name is misleading... It's to campaign for equality, not for females to take control.... which even some feminists seem to not understand. 

Now if people were to understand the above point and the question was  "Do we need to campaign for equality?" I expect most of the replies to be positive... 

Super Mega Man 568 : Let's stick to the thread topic please... Let the mods do their own thing... 
warmaker :

TL/DR Let's just help each other instead of trying to prove who is wrong and who is right...
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02-28-15 04:47 PM
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tgags123 : You've missed the point and actually made a case for feminism. Feminism isn't just about women being able to work or run for office; it's about gender equality, and it goes both ways. 

Here's an example based on the long-standing dating paradigm that still persists in society. Suppose that I, as a male, am interested in dating. What I am expected to do is find a girl I like, engage her in conversation, and ask her out. I am then expected to be a "gentleman" in that I compliment her unconditionally, pay for the meals, the entertainment, et cetera. In other words, I have to "work for it". All the onus is on me. I make the moves, initiate and dictate the course of the relationship, and foot the bill. She just has to show up and smile. 

That is not to say this is the only way dating works, but it is an example of a flawed and outdated societal convention that we haven't eliminated yet. It is unfair to the man as it puts the vast majority of the pressure on him, but it is also unfair to the woman as she loses all responsibility. What if she wants to talk to me first or ask me out or have a greater say in the relationship? Well, that isn't encouraged so much, is it? The girl is supposed to be demure; she doesn't want to be thought of as a s***, something males don't have to worry about nearly as much.

The point is that in this example, both sides are hurt. That isn't to say men shouldn't be allowed to ask women out or that women shouldn't be demure. People should act the way they want to act, not in the way they are expected to act based on gender. That is the goal of feminism, and it is still very relevant today. 
tgags123 : You've missed the point and actually made a case for feminism. Feminism isn't just about women being able to work or run for office; it's about gender equality, and it goes both ways. 

Here's an example based on the long-standing dating paradigm that still persists in society. Suppose that I, as a male, am interested in dating. What I am expected to do is find a girl I like, engage her in conversation, and ask her out. I am then expected to be a "gentleman" in that I compliment her unconditionally, pay for the meals, the entertainment, et cetera. In other words, I have to "work for it". All the onus is on me. I make the moves, initiate and dictate the course of the relationship, and foot the bill. She just has to show up and smile. 

That is not to say this is the only way dating works, but it is an example of a flawed and outdated societal convention that we haven't eliminated yet. It is unfair to the man as it puts the vast majority of the pressure on him, but it is also unfair to the woman as she loses all responsibility. What if she wants to talk to me first or ask me out or have a greater say in the relationship? Well, that isn't encouraged so much, is it? The girl is supposed to be demure; she doesn't want to be thought of as a s***, something males don't have to worry about nearly as much.

The point is that in this example, both sides are hurt. That isn't to say men shouldn't be allowed to ask women out or that women shouldn't be demure. People should act the way they want to act, not in the way they are expected to act based on gender. That is the goal of feminism, and it is still very relevant today. 
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02-28-15 09:55 PM
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Traduweise : While feminism may be defined as gender equality how often is that it brings up problems men face in society? Feminism today is usually focused on problems woman face. There have been some who talk about the problems men face as well but they seem to be in the minority or at least not be as vocal about it and a lot seem to genuinely think that men don't face any problems in society. When was the last time you heard a feminist bring up something like how men face harsher punishment on average compared to a woman for committing the same crime?

If we are to truly achieve gender equality in society we need to stop looking exclusively on the problems one gender face and focus on both sides of the problem.
Traduweise : While feminism may be defined as gender equality how often is that it brings up problems men face in society? Feminism today is usually focused on problems woman face. There have been some who talk about the problems men face as well but they seem to be in the minority or at least not be as vocal about it and a lot seem to genuinely think that men don't face any problems in society. When was the last time you heard a feminist bring up something like how men face harsher punishment on average compared to a woman for committing the same crime?

If we are to truly achieve gender equality in society we need to stop looking exclusively on the problems one gender face and focus on both sides of the problem.
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02-28-15 11:12 PM
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Zlinqx : I hear men's problems brought up quite often, in fact. What I'm seeing here, and all throughout this thread, is people who see a person or group of people talking about feminism and then associating that with feminism in general. Feminism is not a cohesive, organized unit. It includes a broad gamut of people from all walks of life.

I don't pretend to know of or speak for feminism in general; I can only go off what I see, and, broadly speaking, I don't see the problems you've outlined. That isn't to say there aren't misguided or sexist feminists (how ironic), but the world is full of misguided people. 
Zlinqx : I hear men's problems brought up quite often, in fact. What I'm seeing here, and all throughout this thread, is people who see a person or group of people talking about feminism and then associating that with feminism in general. Feminism is not a cohesive, organized unit. It includes a broad gamut of people from all walks of life.

I don't pretend to know of or speak for feminism in general; I can only go off what I see, and, broadly speaking, I don't see the problems you've outlined. That isn't to say there aren't misguided or sexist feminists (how ironic), but the world is full of misguided people. 
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(edited by Traduweise on 02-28-15 11:14 PM)    

02-28-15 11:48 PM
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FaithFighter : My main question is why is it that you are so heavily implying that women's role is to serve their man? You flat out say that we have our role to play and men want a woman to care for them after a long day work. So from what I am gathering, you believe that women should stay home and take care of the house, and men should be the breadwinner and get taken care of after. The main point you seemed to be making is that with the whole family thing, there should be someone staying home if you can afford it. So my question is why does it have to be the woman who stays home and takes care of their man? Do you see it as wrong or simply less good if say the man stayed home and the wife was the one working? You say don't blame you for being sexist, but when your view is that men should have a career and that a woman's job should be a caring wife for their husband IS sexist, plain and simple. Maybe that isn't what you meant, but that is what your words are implying. If that is what you meant, I'm sorry. That is a sexist view. There is nothing wrong with the husband taking that role. That is what the non-radical activists of feminism stand for. Not having society basically trying to limit women as a whole to having the same role. That is a manner of being controlled and forced into a predetermined role. I am pretty sure that you would not appreciate being told that you should spend your life devoted to caring after your wife after she gets home from work just because society says that is your gender's role.
FaithFighter : My main question is why is it that you are so heavily implying that women's role is to serve their man? You flat out say that we have our role to play and men want a woman to care for them after a long day work. So from what I am gathering, you believe that women should stay home and take care of the house, and men should be the breadwinner and get taken care of after. The main point you seemed to be making is that with the whole family thing, there should be someone staying home if you can afford it. So my question is why does it have to be the woman who stays home and takes care of their man? Do you see it as wrong or simply less good if say the man stayed home and the wife was the one working? You say don't blame you for being sexist, but when your view is that men should have a career and that a woman's job should be a caring wife for their husband IS sexist, plain and simple. Maybe that isn't what you meant, but that is what your words are implying. If that is what you meant, I'm sorry. That is a sexist view. There is nothing wrong with the husband taking that role. That is what the non-radical activists of feminism stand for. Not having society basically trying to limit women as a whole to having the same role. That is a manner of being controlled and forced into a predetermined role. I am pretty sure that you would not appreciate being told that you should spend your life devoted to caring after your wife after she gets home from work just because society says that is your gender's role.
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rcarter2 : I'm not sure if I agree with him or not, but let me try to clarify what he was trying to say.

Men and women are built differently. Men tend to be stronger and better physically, while women tend to be friendlier and better with things that require more patience. The reason God made us have these differences is because we were made to have different roles. Men were supposed to be the ones to do the hunting and bringing home food, hence the fact that they are physically more able, and women were supposed to be the ones to take care of the home and kids and stuff, hence the fact that they are more patient. I agree with that. However I'm not sure if it translates into today's society or not.
rcarter2 : I'm not sure if I agree with him or not, but let me try to clarify what he was trying to say.

Men and women are built differently. Men tend to be stronger and better physically, while women tend to be friendlier and better with things that require more patience. The reason God made us have these differences is because we were made to have different roles. Men were supposed to be the ones to do the hunting and bringing home food, hence the fact that they are physically more able, and women were supposed to be the ones to take care of the home and kids and stuff, hence the fact that they are more patient. I agree with that. However I'm not sure if it translates into today's society or not.
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Traduweise : Sorry I meant people who call themselves feminists and feminist organizations in general only seems to focus on woman's issues probably wasn't clear enough on that. I've seen some exceptions yes but they're usually few or at least not as vocal and many seem to blame the problems in society on men.


tgags123 : Not really. Without bringing religion into this and the debate of tif there is a god, what affects how we act is society not our biology. While there are physical differences between men and women it doesn't stop either sex from doing anything and should be forced into a preset role just because of your gender (not implying that it's your opinion) and it doesn't really make you act any differently. Society still affects us to act in certain ways without us even realizing it. Like how women are supposed to be sensitive and emotional and caring and how men is supposed to be the opposite though and never show their emotions. Which we're taught from an early age subliminally by things like the toys we play with and ads targeted towards different genders showing the "ideal" male or female.  There's nothing wrong with women wanting to stay at home and taking care of the children and care for their husband but it's nothing that should be expected of them.
Traduweise : Sorry I meant people who call themselves feminists and feminist organizations in general only seems to focus on woman's issues probably wasn't clear enough on that. I've seen some exceptions yes but they're usually few or at least not as vocal and many seem to blame the problems in society on men.


tgags123 : Not really. Without bringing religion into this and the debate of tif there is a god, what affects how we act is society not our biology. While there are physical differences between men and women it doesn't stop either sex from doing anything and should be forced into a preset role just because of your gender (not implying that it's your opinion) and it doesn't really make you act any differently. Society still affects us to act in certain ways without us even realizing it. Like how women are supposed to be sensitive and emotional and caring and how men is supposed to be the opposite though and never show their emotions. Which we're taught from an early age subliminally by things like the toys we play with and ads targeted towards different genders showing the "ideal" male or female.  There's nothing wrong with women wanting to stay at home and taking care of the children and care for their husband but it's nothing that should be expected of them.
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03-01-15 01:19 PM
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tgags123 : I understand the genetics of it. But as you said, today's society doesn't really apply quite as much. Today, we earn food and shelter not by physical prowess alone, but by a variety of ways. You don't need to by physically strong or swift to be enormously more successful than one who could outmatch you in any physical competition. Times change, and environment changes. If we still lived in a time where physical prowess was a significant factor in your ability to provide, then there would be more merit to the idea that women should be the household anchor. In this day and age, it is unfair to force roles on an entire gender just because it is what worked in a time where we needed to be hunters.
Overall, I am not saying that there are not extreme feminists. The most vocal ones who make men out to be complete tyrants and at more deserving to be at fault in most situations. You get those extremists with any ideal. I don't agree with the extremists. But they don't actually represent the majority of the feminist movement. I do agree that equal pay should be implemented. I agree that women performers should not expected to be promiscuous to be as successful as male performers. I agree that women should not have to feel that everyone around them sees them as less capable just because of their gender. That is the heart of the true feminist movement. Most of the less extreme vocal feminists will agree that domestic abuse should be seen equally as serious when a woman does it as when a man does it. Most will agree that child custody in the event of separation should be in both the mother and the father as long as one of them isn't bad for the child. What I am seeing in this thread is a lot of YOUNGER users posting on here about how stupid feminism is because all they really understand is the most extremist vocal view of it. They don't seem to really understand what the true nature of feminism REALLY is. But then there are comments that women should be confined to the house when the family can afford it, and that is inequality, no matter how you spin it.
tgags123 : I understand the genetics of it. But as you said, today's society doesn't really apply quite as much. Today, we earn food and shelter not by physical prowess alone, but by a variety of ways. You don't need to by physically strong or swift to be enormously more successful than one who could outmatch you in any physical competition. Times change, and environment changes. If we still lived in a time where physical prowess was a significant factor in your ability to provide, then there would be more merit to the idea that women should be the household anchor. In this day and age, it is unfair to force roles on an entire gender just because it is what worked in a time where we needed to be hunters.
Overall, I am not saying that there are not extreme feminists. The most vocal ones who make men out to be complete tyrants and at more deserving to be at fault in most situations. You get those extremists with any ideal. I don't agree with the extremists. But they don't actually represent the majority of the feminist movement. I do agree that equal pay should be implemented. I agree that women performers should not expected to be promiscuous to be as successful as male performers. I agree that women should not have to feel that everyone around them sees them as less capable just because of their gender. That is the heart of the true feminist movement. Most of the less extreme vocal feminists will agree that domestic abuse should be seen equally as serious when a woman does it as when a man does it. Most will agree that child custody in the event of separation should be in both the mother and the father as long as one of them isn't bad for the child. What I am seeing in this thread is a lot of YOUNGER users posting on here about how stupid feminism is because all they really understand is the most extremist vocal view of it. They don't seem to really understand what the true nature of feminism REALLY is. But then there are comments that women should be confined to the house when the family can afford it, and that is inequality, no matter how you spin it.
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rcarter2 : I agree with your first paragraph. We no longer have to hunt for food or need muscle to make money by farming, metalworking, etc. There are more jobs that require using your brain, something both genders can do.

I have a little disagreement with some of the things you said in the second paragraph, though. I hate the misconception that women get paid less than men to do the same jobs. If you go to any business or place of work and you ask each employee that does the same job (let's say a surgeon at a hospital, for example) and has been working for the same amount of time (since you can get raises if you work longer) I bet you their wages will be identical. No business would risk getting destroyed by the media because of something like that.

Also, female performers aren't forced to be promiscuous. There are plenty of singers and actresses that wear actual clothes and are very successful. It is their choice of what they wear onstage. No one is forcing them to dress a certain way, except maybe their agent who they could fire.

I also don't think that anyone considers women to be less capable, except maybe some old farts that are stuck in the old ways lol. The valedictorian and salutatorian in my grade are both female. I never hear anyone say that women are incapable of things unless it is a joke. Obviously saying that women are generally weaker or less capable of being a linebacker on a football team, that would be true. But women could also say that we are generally less capable of being social workers, and that would true as well.

Overall I agree that equality is the main goal, but I think that we are as close to equal as we are going to get. Even if there is room for improvement, why is the movement called feminism? The name itself makes us sound unequal.
rcarter2 : I agree with your first paragraph. We no longer have to hunt for food or need muscle to make money by farming, metalworking, etc. There are more jobs that require using your brain, something both genders can do.

I have a little disagreement with some of the things you said in the second paragraph, though. I hate the misconception that women get paid less than men to do the same jobs. If you go to any business or place of work and you ask each employee that does the same job (let's say a surgeon at a hospital, for example) and has been working for the same amount of time (since you can get raises if you work longer) I bet you their wages will be identical. No business would risk getting destroyed by the media because of something like that.

Also, female performers aren't forced to be promiscuous. There are plenty of singers and actresses that wear actual clothes and are very successful. It is their choice of what they wear onstage. No one is forcing them to dress a certain way, except maybe their agent who they could fire.

I also don't think that anyone considers women to be less capable, except maybe some old farts that are stuck in the old ways lol. The valedictorian and salutatorian in my grade are both female. I never hear anyone say that women are incapable of things unless it is a joke. Obviously saying that women are generally weaker or less capable of being a linebacker on a football team, that would be true. But women could also say that we are generally less capable of being social workers, and that would true as well.

Overall I agree that equality is the main goal, but I think that we are as close to equal as we are going to get. Even if there is room for improvement, why is the movement called feminism? The name itself makes us sound unequal.
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tgags123 : I don't blame you for thinking the payment of women is not unequal. You are 15, you have not had any experience in the career field. And it isn't quite a matter of individual companies. If you look at the income census, the average woman does indeed make less than the average male in the same profession. You won't see this in things like par time jobs or entry level positions. It is when you look at when people start advancing in their careers. A man's pay is often more the further they advance than women as they advance in the same profession. That isn't a misconception. That is shown pretty clear in the income census. You are looking at it in some light that companies actively set lower wages for women. You are right, that is not true, but that isn't HOW women earn less than men. My wife and I, for example are in the same career. She graduated from college almost 2 years earlier than I did and got a position right away. She has been working there for 4 years now. I have been working in the same profession for only 2 and a half years. Same career field, my wife has more years in the field than I do, and she has started adding graduate hours, which increase your salary in our field. I have not done that. Yet I am now making slightly more than her. I guarantee that she is better at her job than I am. She is constantly praised, other teachers with kids are actively trying to get their kids in her classroom, her employer has been choosing her to be in charge of some of the education programs for the school. I am still in my learning stages. Yet I am earning more than her when there is no real logical reason for it. She works her butt off to earn a little less than me. You find this everywhere if you are willing to really look. But again, you are a teenager, and I don't expect you to realize this right now. It wasn't something I really understood until my last couple years of college where I had access to better resources on the matter (non online resources).
As for the entertainers, I am not saying they are forced. Yes, there are a LOT of non promiscuous women who are highly successful. But the entertainment business is a field that does promote it. Sex sells. To sell a product, to get more viewers, to boost your ratings, sex sells. And lets face it. We don't see men sexualized near as much. That is because of what the general public wants to see. You can be successful without doing that, but it is highly encouraged. And lets look at rating systems. You can have a woman naked on camera for a brief time and get a PG-13 rating with the content being "brief nudity". It wasn't until pretty recently that if a man were nude on camera, a film wouldn't immediately be rated X. Even now though, it is rated R. Even if it is only the briefest moment, it is labeled R due to "Graphic Nudity". Displaying women in a sexual manner is not considered near as big of a deal, so it is generally something that is expected.
As for your last part, that is you personally. You never hear people say women are incapable. That is good news for you and where you live, but it isn't true everywhere. That is like saying racial discrimination isn't a thing because you don't hear about it where you live. I have seen the opposite. I don't see if super often, and a lot of time it is more of a passive thing. But like passive aggression, the feeling it gives you is hard to ignore.
As for why it is called feminism, it is just a label. The label is not the important thing. The goal is. So don't call it feminism. Call it gender equality. That is the goal of feminism. Is not called masculinism men are not the lower end of the stick here. But don't let the mere title of a group distract you from the goal.
tgags123 : I don't blame you for thinking the payment of women is not unequal. You are 15, you have not had any experience in the career field. And it isn't quite a matter of individual companies. If you look at the income census, the average woman does indeed make less than the average male in the same profession. You won't see this in things like par time jobs or entry level positions. It is when you look at when people start advancing in their careers. A man's pay is often more the further they advance than women as they advance in the same profession. That isn't a misconception. That is shown pretty clear in the income census. You are looking at it in some light that companies actively set lower wages for women. You are right, that is not true, but that isn't HOW women earn less than men. My wife and I, for example are in the same career. She graduated from college almost 2 years earlier than I did and got a position right away. She has been working there for 4 years now. I have been working in the same profession for only 2 and a half years. Same career field, my wife has more years in the field than I do, and she has started adding graduate hours, which increase your salary in our field. I have not done that. Yet I am now making slightly more than her. I guarantee that she is better at her job than I am. She is constantly praised, other teachers with kids are actively trying to get their kids in her classroom, her employer has been choosing her to be in charge of some of the education programs for the school. I am still in my learning stages. Yet I am earning more than her when there is no real logical reason for it. She works her butt off to earn a little less than me. You find this everywhere if you are willing to really look. But again, you are a teenager, and I don't expect you to realize this right now. It wasn't something I really understood until my last couple years of college where I had access to better resources on the matter (non online resources).
As for the entertainers, I am not saying they are forced. Yes, there are a LOT of non promiscuous women who are highly successful. But the entertainment business is a field that does promote it. Sex sells. To sell a product, to get more viewers, to boost your ratings, sex sells. And lets face it. We don't see men sexualized near as much. That is because of what the general public wants to see. You can be successful without doing that, but it is highly encouraged. And lets look at rating systems. You can have a woman naked on camera for a brief time and get a PG-13 rating with the content being "brief nudity". It wasn't until pretty recently that if a man were nude on camera, a film wouldn't immediately be rated X. Even now though, it is rated R. Even if it is only the briefest moment, it is labeled R due to "Graphic Nudity". Displaying women in a sexual manner is not considered near as big of a deal, so it is generally something that is expected.
As for your last part, that is you personally. You never hear people say women are incapable. That is good news for you and where you live, but it isn't true everywhere. That is like saying racial discrimination isn't a thing because you don't hear about it where you live. I have seen the opposite. I don't see if super often, and a lot of time it is more of a passive thing. But like passive aggression, the feeling it gives you is hard to ignore.
As for why it is called feminism, it is just a label. The label is not the important thing. The goal is. So don't call it feminism. Call it gender equality. That is the goal of feminism. Is not called masculinism men are not the lower end of the stick here. But don't let the mere title of a group distract you from the goal.
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03-03-15 02:33 PM
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Feminism as such is merely a branching out of a larger subject: HUMAN rights. Since women are human - there was even a decision from the Privy Council in London stating that women are persons - then theirs was merely a fight to be equal before the law as men had had since the early 19th century.

Now that they have it is industrialized countries, I can't quite explain why feminism persists. It seems to me that theirs is not a Marxist fight demanding arbitrary wage/wealth inequality, most of which is a result of choice. Indeed, a man and a woman having
exactly the same background and job have at most a 5 percent wage gap.

The 20 percent gap you hear about ad nauseam is because of those choices, usually family-related. Indeed, "traditional" female jobs (teacher, nurse) are that way even today because they allow more flexibility to have a family. I see it with my own relatives: I have two cousins who became mothers before age 30 (one has 2 children) because they are both teachers. On her side my sister had her first child at age 32; her job as a chemist kept her very busy. And another cousin still isn't a parent as she is pursuing her Ph.D in engineering.

In short, 21-century feminism is more detrimental and helpful. It (ironically) calls for more government intervention in our lives... the same government that was oppressing them not too long ago. Stockholm Syndrome much?
Feminism as such is merely a branching out of a larger subject: HUMAN rights. Since women are human - there was even a decision from the Privy Council in London stating that women are persons - then theirs was merely a fight to be equal before the law as men had had since the early 19th century.

Now that they have it is industrialized countries, I can't quite explain why feminism persists. It seems to me that theirs is not a Marxist fight demanding arbitrary wage/wealth inequality, most of which is a result of choice. Indeed, a man and a woman having
exactly the same background and job have at most a 5 percent wage gap.

The 20 percent gap you hear about ad nauseam is because of those choices, usually family-related. Indeed, "traditional" female jobs (teacher, nurse) are that way even today because they allow more flexibility to have a family. I see it with my own relatives: I have two cousins who became mothers before age 30 (one has 2 children) because they are both teachers. On her side my sister had her first child at age 32; her job as a chemist kept her very busy. And another cousin still isn't a parent as she is pursuing her Ph.D in engineering.

In short, 21-century feminism is more detrimental and helpful. It (ironically) calls for more government intervention in our lives... the same government that was oppressing them not too long ago. Stockholm Syndrome much?
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Time for an opinion!
Not only do I think that feminism is not
necessary, I believe that it is harmful to society. Since the dawn of
feminism lord knows how many years ago, the society that we live in has
changed an unprecedented amount. However, feminists in the modern world
are not quite the same people that they were then, and neither are their
arguing points. Now, I do realize the argument about income gaps, and I
do indeed realize that it exists and can be a problem for some people,
however, one must realize that it is not the only thing that feminists
argue about.  Many argue that the modern world is oversexualizing them.
And that's all I'll say about that, as I believe that that statement is a
bunch of...nothing. Let's go with that. And people have already argued
about this. They do it to get attention, and then criticize men when
they get the attention. Seriously?
I understand that they argue about
income, I've said that like three times now or something. But modern
feminists now use the movement not to bring themselves up to the state
of men, but rather to lower them in society, which is idiotic
not necessary OR helpful to their cause. When they are making
statements such as this, it tends to make people (like me) take them
less seriously (which it has), which is funny, because the whole point
is to make people take them more seriously.  I know a feminist
personally, and she is always trying to argue that men are "oppressive
and detrimental to the progression of women in society." Last time I
checked, feminists are the ones who attempt to portray men as little as
they can to take them down and to make them equal (?) to women. So let
me get this straight, you don't want to rise up and surpass men, but
rather bring men down lower then yourselves? How does that make sense?
Oh, never mind, I guess it doesn't. Here is a thread to prove it.
Time for an opinion!
Not only do I think that feminism is not
necessary, I believe that it is harmful to society. Since the dawn of
feminism lord knows how many years ago, the society that we live in has
changed an unprecedented amount. However, feminists in the modern world
are not quite the same people that they were then, and neither are their
arguing points. Now, I do realize the argument about income gaps, and I
do indeed realize that it exists and can be a problem for some people,
however, one must realize that it is not the only thing that feminists
argue about.  Many argue that the modern world is oversexualizing them.
And that's all I'll say about that, as I believe that that statement is a
bunch of...nothing. Let's go with that. And people have already argued
about this. They do it to get attention, and then criticize men when
they get the attention. Seriously?
I understand that they argue about
income, I've said that like three times now or something. But modern
feminists now use the movement not to bring themselves up to the state
of men, but rather to lower them in society, which is idiotic
not necessary OR helpful to their cause. When they are making
statements such as this, it tends to make people (like me) take them
less seriously (which it has), which is funny, because the whole point
is to make people take them more seriously.  I know a feminist
personally, and she is always trying to argue that men are "oppressive
and detrimental to the progression of women in society." Last time I
checked, feminists are the ones who attempt to portray men as little as
they can to take them down and to make them equal (?) to women. So let
me get this straight, you don't want to rise up and surpass men, but
rather bring men down lower then yourselves? How does that make sense?
Oh, never mind, I guess it doesn't. Here is a thread to prove it.
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The original question asked if feminism is necessary.

Considering feminism is defined as a collection of theories, movements, and ideologies that define, establish, and achieve political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.

Those of you who are busy saying feminists are terrible people are grouping an entire culture together.  It's like saying all Americans own guns and ride horses.  Or all Koreans are good at math.  Or all Germans are serious.

You're categorizing an entire group of people and that's not fair to them.

Secondly, if you think women don't need to be equal to men socially, economically, politically, or personally, then you're a terrible person because you think they are less important than men.

Feminism means women are treated equally to men.  It means no more and no less.  Different people have different ways to get there and some aren't doing it right or fairly.  The idea itself is to advance men and women together and find equal footing for everyone.

If any of you really feel women shouldn't be equal to men..... well, I can't fathom it.  I feel bad for your mothers, sister, girlfriends, and all the females you know.
The original question asked if feminism is necessary.

Considering feminism is defined as a collection of theories, movements, and ideologies that define, establish, and achieve political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women.

Those of you who are busy saying feminists are terrible people are grouping an entire culture together.  It's like saying all Americans own guns and ride horses.  Or all Koreans are good at math.  Or all Germans are serious.

You're categorizing an entire group of people and that's not fair to them.

Secondly, if you think women don't need to be equal to men socially, economically, politically, or personally, then you're a terrible person because you think they are less important than men.

Feminism means women are treated equally to men.  It means no more and no less.  Different people have different ways to get there and some aren't doing it right or fairly.  The idea itself is to advance men and women together and find equal footing for everyone.

If any of you really feel women shouldn't be equal to men..... well, I can't fathom it.  I feel bad for your mothers, sister, girlfriends, and all the females you know.
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The way I see it, if there is no equality between between the sexes and no equal rights among them, there will always be need for feminism. For me feminism is a women's struggle against being labeled secondary citizen compared to men. Not some power trip where women would be more powerful than men. Its just the lady folk wanting to be human beings and wanting rights that belong to them by birth and I am all for that. Like any sane person would.
The way I see it, if there is no equality between between the sexes and no equal rights among them, there will always be need for feminism. For me feminism is a women's struggle against being labeled secondary citizen compared to men. Not some power trip where women would be more powerful than men. Its just the lady folk wanting to be human beings and wanting rights that belong to them by birth and I am all for that. Like any sane person would.
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03-07-15 12:58 PM
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warmaker : Thank you. It is all too obvious that almost every single person who has posted in this forum believes that feminism is just the actions people take. Just because a lot of people have brought up the Christian God in this 'debate topic', I'll use it as an example. Thinking that feminism is nothing more than the actions some feminists take is no different than saying that Christianity is the movement to convert everyone. Just because much of the very vocal Christians make it a task to urge others to convert to their religion does not mean that the ideology of Christianity has anything to do with convincing everyone to convert. Not that it matters, because it is clear that most are not going to see past what they think feminism is. Fact of the matter is, if you believe that women and men should be considered and treated equally, you are a feminist. Doesn't matter if you don't identify yourself with the movement group, don't agree with the actions a lot of feminists take, or don't agree with everything some of the feminists say. As long as you agree with that one thing, you are a feminist, pure and simple, because that one belief is ALL feminism is. So when people here say men and women definitely should be equal but then say feminism is stupid, it is a a complete contradiction.

Anyone else find it remotely interesting that the almost ALL the people who have posted against feminism here are teenage boys?
warmaker : Thank you. It is all too obvious that almost every single person who has posted in this forum believes that feminism is just the actions people take. Just because a lot of people have brought up the Christian God in this 'debate topic', I'll use it as an example. Thinking that feminism is nothing more than the actions some feminists take is no different than saying that Christianity is the movement to convert everyone. Just because much of the very vocal Christians make it a task to urge others to convert to their religion does not mean that the ideology of Christianity has anything to do with convincing everyone to convert. Not that it matters, because it is clear that most are not going to see past what they think feminism is. Fact of the matter is, if you believe that women and men should be considered and treated equally, you are a feminist. Doesn't matter if you don't identify yourself with the movement group, don't agree with the actions a lot of feminists take, or don't agree with everything some of the feminists say. As long as you agree with that one thing, you are a feminist, pure and simple, because that one belief is ALL feminism is. So when people here say men and women definitely should be equal but then say feminism is stupid, it is a a complete contradiction.

Anyone else find it remotely interesting that the almost ALL the people who have posted against feminism here are teenage boys?
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