So I just had a discussion that kind of bothered me in the Chat room.

Thing1 mentioned that he respects the LGBTQ community EXCEPT for the Transgendering or transsexuals or Trany or of that sort. He would not call a Transgendering person (in specific guy to girl)  a SHE until said person does not have any testicles anymore.

But I disagreed saying that it might offend such person. What if it makes them more comfortable about themselves and going through the process of going from man to woman to be called a FEMALE OR SHE before it is complete. It could offend them completely and or make them feel self conscious not being considered  a woman already especially if he is dressing up as a woman already.

Thing1 doesn't care. This is not an attack I just want to show where I'm coming from because it was not being understood in the Chat room.

Yes because some guys that dress as a woman also like Drag Queens or tranys prefer extremely to be called a woman when in drag. It is just polite to call them that (unless they don't care). It's probably as bothersome as constantly telling a gay guy that he has to marry a woman because he is a male and not a female.

thing1 : Just want you to see what I'm talking about. I respect your opinion but I can't say fully what I wanted to say when in chat.

Here's the problem with not respecting transgender pronouns based on body parts.

1) The person might not have the money to go through such a proceedure. The money adds up pretty fast.

Depending on what you want, I've heard estimates of $15-17 THOUSAND dollars.

2) The person might not want to go the whole way.

Once you commit to gender-change, you commit to taking hormones basically your whole life.

You might not want yourself to be mutilated JUST so others will call you by the correct pronouns.


If someone identifies as a woman, I use "she". If someone identifies as a male I use "he". If someone identifies as neither, I use "they".

There are other biological reasons for why sex (parts) in many cases does not align with gender (he/she/they).

This is really a hotbutton issue, because I know a guy who identifies as a girl, and personally I'm torn on what I believe.

On the one hand, I believe if you are physically a male, no matter how badly you want to be female, that you are a male. You can be into dudes or women or whatever, but if you have male parts, physically, to me, you are a male.

But on the other, I believe that intent is important. IF you have the intent to one day become a female, and take hormones and the other, that you are transitioning, and have every right to be called he or she, depending on desired pronoun.

To me, I guess, it's all about how far you are willing to take it. I have respect for people who are open about who they are, but I find it harder to respect people who aren't willing to commit to the transition fully. If you can't because of finances, it's one thing, money is hard. But if you are just afraid of mutilating your junk, then to me, you have to be the gender you were born as.

I don't want to say it, but I think most people honestly just do it for the attention.

I believe both sides have valid points, and I'm just somewhere in the middle on it.

I don't know. It doesn't really bother me. I'd personally never date a transexual person, because I might one day want to have children the "normal" (I have no better way to describe it) way. I can't really do that if the woman I'm dating was born a man. And I don't want to have to break someone's heart saying "I'm sorry, I want kids, and I want them the 'normal' way.

But that aside, I have no real problems with them. They are free to live their lives, as I am free to live mine.

legacyme3 :

But with a lot of transgender people you might not know about their parts for a long time. If you found out after a few years that a woman you knew actually had male parts, would you suddenly change pronouns? If not, why wouldn't you grant leniency to someone whom transitioned during the time you knew them?

There are also a lot of androgynous looking people. I'd personally feel uncomfortable trying to label them as male or female based on parts (since it's intimate knowledge). It's infinitely easier and more respectful just to identify people as they want to be identified.

When people gender someone based on their parts, it's often about having sex (implicitly).
But to the transgender person, it's much bigger. It's their whole life.

EideticMemory :

Generally speaking, you wouldn't think you'd know, but if it's early enough in the transition, at my age, it will be evident. I can speak romantically, and often do (at least when single) with both men and women, so that doesn't bother me. It's just part of my character. I flirt with everyone, man, woman, or neither. I'm almost never serious though. That's not me having an attraction. That's me having fun.

If I was talking to a woman (who was really a man) and started talking more intimately with them to the point where I found their parts, honestly, I probably would start to address that woman as a guy from that point on. It doesn't really matter to me if I thought they were a girl, once I know something, I can't unknow it. And I'm firm in at least partially believing if you have man parts, you are a man, regardless of whether you want those parts. It has nothing to do with desire. On the biological and physical level, at that point in time, they are a man to me.

And androgynous looking people have little to do with transgender people, but even so, if a guy looks like a girl, I will wait until they correct me. You can say you are whatever you want, and I'll believe it, it's whatever, but if I know you are a man for whatever reason, then I'm going to call you a man. If you are a man, and one day, you decide you want to be a woman, I will call that person a man until they become a woman. I've tried on multiple occasions to change this behavior, but I really can't. This one person I know, I can't change the fact I believe they are a man, so we've more or less stopped talking to each other. I respect their right to a choice, but just the same, you have to respect my right to disagree. You can call yourself what you want, but if I think of you as something else, I can't call you what you want to be called.

I know about the transgender issue, and what it implies, I know it's bigger than sex to them, and that's fine, I get that. But to me, it can't be more than that, because it's honestly a world I'm not interested in and don't care a hell of a lot about. I have had this discussion with people who actually are transgender, and those who stand up for transgender people (though I'd argue it's more white knighting than actually defending) and I've just come to the conclusion that I'm never going to see totally eye to eye with them.

So I've more or less come to a "live and let live" point.

That doesn't mean I'm going to change pronoun use though. If I see you as a guy, you are a guy to me. If I see you as a girl, you are a girl to me. That's really all there is to it. If somebody I know is offended by me calling them the wrong thing, we weren't going to get along with to begin with.

Thank you for your replies. I see some of the debate so far and I'm glad it's going smoothly. I also see where both parties come from.

EideticMemory : I'm on board one hundred percent with you on this. You brought some interesting things about this debate that I didn't even think of like the financial aspect of the process. That didn't cross my mind when the subject was brought up in the chat room. It is such a big change really. I saw a short movie on youtube about a boy that actually trans gendered fully in order for a boy he grew up with to love him back the same way he loved him. This was based on a true story of sorts. Included actual audio of the radio station that set up their reuniting on the radio to see the guys answer to the now trans gendered boys confession of love to him. It really is an important decision to make when they decide to go through with it for the rest of their lives. A real... eye opening decision.

legacyme3 : I'm also on board one hundred percent with you as well. You explained it much better on this point of view than I got from the chat room. I respect peoples opinions on this subject. You have brought up something that some people wish to change but really can't change. Only the person with the opinion can change their own opinion on something like this. Not being able to bring yourself to call a transgendering male a she is quite a situation but your explanation on why is what brings me on board to your ship. If you have a strong belief that a she is a she and a he is a he and then someone comes along and says he is a she.. That is baffling and much an inner struggle to see it that way. It sounds like you go about it in a respectful way and that is all I look for when it comes to opinions. Respectful opinions being put out on the floor in comparison to a rude opinion with no backing explanation is really what starts to turn the world.

I don't know why it's a conversation at all.  If someone wants to be called a certain name, like Jim or Chrissy or whatever, we call them that.  That's their name and what they identify to.

If someone wants to be called he or she or it or they make something else up, that's fine.  I believe for legal documents, like driver's licensure, or other federal or medical documents, they're identified by their current physical gender.

I can want to be a male all I wish but when I go to a doctor and I have a uterus, I'm dealing with a different set of problems.

I'll call people whatever they want because (a) it usually means a lot of them and (b) it means nothing to me.  I don't care.  It's not that I'm pro or anti anyone.  I just don't give a crap.  I'll respect the person, though, and call them he, she, it, whatever.

Well to put it simply, yes. I'm not one who is overly concerned with a persons gender due to the simple fact I am mostly concerned with the person and not their body. That's not to say I don't have my own desires, but I prefer a sort of mind over matter approach to things.

I actually know a couple transgender people and still consider them my friends, so I mean really now, why wouldn't I?

I really don't even understand why this is an issue. I am a male, I haven't had a sex change or anything, I was born a male and I wish to remain a male. But if someone referred to me as "she" or "her", I really wouldn't care. I think people that are transgender should be even more understanding considering that choosing the correct pronoun is confusing when you were born one gender and wish to be another gender.

EideticMemory : Woah woah woah. 15-17k? I don't think so. For the simple ones, its 40 THOUSAND. Without those 2 weeks of hospitable bills or all of that.

Thing, that isn't right. They're just people too.

Just to be honest, you don't have to refer to them as She, but don't EVER say it or any of that. If you just call them a boy, do it RESPECTFULLY and don't just be rude about it. If you decide to be rude about it, that is when things happen. They're just people who find that they aren't placed into the correct body and any of that. If you just want to decide to be rude and disrespectful to them, by all mean do that, but I sure hope that later that person will feel bad about it, as if you don't address the situation right, the person on the other end could be destroyed.

When it comes to the whole LGBTQA section of the world, a lot more respect has been handed out, by mostly to the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Queer, and Asexual portion of this. The people who get the least amount of respect IS those Transgender people as the whole idea seems crazy and stupid to a lot of people. The problem with this is that a lot of people don't exactly know how it feels to have to be in that situation where you just hate who you are and wish you were different. Saying that you are against all of that or any of that in that matter is just so wrong.

If someone wants to be the opposite of what they were made to be, just let them. There is no reason to be doing any of this arguing about any of this. They are just people who have different wants and needs and a different view on life. Personally, when someone is called by what they actually want to be called, then it really affects them positively, but when they are called what  they don't want to be called and the person who is calling them ACTUALLY means it, then that is when it is wrong.

There is no problem with not liking who you are, and people who can't respect someone for not wanting to be the way they were made need to get with it. Not just calling out thing in here, tons of other people in the world also disrespect all of the Transgenders out there, and that is what needs changing. 

If you accidentally call someone the wrong name, then it is perfectly fine, but when you say that you CAN'T RESPECT these kinds of people, that is when it gets out of hand and that is what needs to  be fixed.   

Barathemos: Nope, if somebody identifies as female and you refer to them as male intentionally, then you are being disrespectful period. Accidents are fine so long as you apologize and correct yourself.

I would respect them for the most part just to be nice (even though I think it's weird and somewhat wrong), but I agree with thing1 in saying that I would call a guy-girl transgender a he and a girl-guy transgender (if those exist) a she still. They're not truly a she until they lose the balls.

I think it depends on what the person in question wants to be referred to as. People aren't truly based on what, they are based on who. If they want you to address them as a girl, do so. If they want you to address them as a boy, do so. If they don't specify then do what I do. Call them by name. If I'm not sure what someone wants to be called I use their name because no matter what kind of changes you make to yourself a name is a name. (And if they change their name call them by the new one)

TheFadedWarrior : The one thing we need to stop doing if we're ever to stop the perpetual oppression and abuse of trans people is the concept of "truly a she."

Also what business is it to you what they have in their pants? Tell me, would you be okay with someone refusing you to call you a guy or by your birth name/preferred name until they see your genitals? 

"Respecting someone for the most part" for their identity isn't nice and will never be nice, get over yourself.

Myelin : Lol. Your response shows me that A) You are a transgender and B) You are way too irrational and childish to be taken seriously. I am done with this thread. I have nothing wrong with transgender people, but a pronoun means absolutely NOTHING.

tgags123 : First of all, wrong, I'm not transgender, but I do drag, I have trans friends, and I am an LGBT rights activist. You're only gonna deal with my points by calling me irrational and childish (ad hominem, anyone?) when I'm trying to call you out on your transphobia, nice!

Also please give me the phone number of whomever declared you the mighty "can decide what has meaning for people" guy, I'd really like to talk to them.

Myelin : You didn't make any points, you just complained, hence why I called you irrational and childish.

If I was transphobic I would say so. I'm not afraid to speak my mind. Again, I have nothing wrong with people changing their genitals or wanting to be a different gender, but it is completely ridiculous for you to flip out about someone calling you he instead of she, or vice versa.

I have no reason to disrespect somebody who isn't disrespecting me, or for that matter has nothing to do with me.

They can do whatever they want, they aren't me, so why should I make a big deal out of it?

tgags123 : Oh! Stop the record! I have been accused of complaining! That means I'm wrong for sure.

No, I did make a point. Since you clearly didn't get it when reading it at first I'll restate it: "It's cool and groovy if pronouns don't matter to you, but they do matter immensely to some people and it would be minimally decent if you could respect their desire to use correct pronouns when referring to them. It's ok to mess up, but when you call them by the pronoun that they've rejected intentionally, you're being hurtful"

Now, let me explain why its awful for anyone to mess up pronouns (I've done it myself, and I've been corrected by my trans friends). You see just about every transgender person experiences something called gender dysphoria. To save you some Googling time, I'll tell you what that means: when they live with or are treated as the gender they were assigned at birth, they get immensely depressed, it ruins their day, and when it is a constant it can even make them suicidal (see: Leelah Alcorn). This is a psychological condition that is fixed upon transition (i.e. Changing your parts and your appearance to that of your preferred gender, but also includes being treated as your preferred gender.) So whenever you call a trans person the wrong pronouns, you intensify whatever dysphoria they have.

Think I'm making this all up? Nope, the greatest authority in psychology, the APA, describes this in their psychology  manual, the DSM-5. Do look it up.

When you misgender (call by the wrong pronoun) a trans person, you are abusing someone that is experiencing a psychological condition. If your insistence to maintain this abuse isn't straight up transphobia, I don't know what it is.

EDIT: removed some sass.

I probably will have a pretty controversial view, lol. Still, I've shared my thoughts in chat once or twice, and I figure once more won't hurt.

I want to start off with a pre-post disclaimer: My opinion is not meant to disrespect, mock, or otherwise bully any transgendered people (or their supporters). This is simply my opinion, and I don't plan to force it on other people.

Now that that's out of the way, time for my opinion.

I guess the tl;dr of my view is this: If your gender matters so little that you can change it based on feelings, why can't I call you what I want based on my own feelings? Why does the pronoun I use to refer to you matter, if you can change your gender based on feelings?

Now, that's not to say I want to specifically disrespect anyone for their views of gender, but it does mean that I feel perfectly free to refer to someone who is physically male as a male (or vice versa). As leggy said: "And I'm firm in at least partially believing if you have man parts, you are a man, regardless of whether you want those parts. It has nothing to do with desire."

So, pretty much, if you're physically male, I'll refer to you as male (regardless of your feelings, because feelings change. physical attributes like that don't change based on season of life and such.). Same goes for if you're physically female. I don't have the time, energy, or patience to bow to your pronoun desires. It's wasted energy, imo.

In addition, my faith also guides my thoughts on this subject. In Psalm 139:13, the Psalmist writes that "For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.". Wouldn't that suggest that God specifically cares about us, even from before the moment we're conceived? To me, this verse says that God specifically has a hand in our conception. I mean, I'm not saying that He literally knits us together or anything, but I do believe God is present and somewhat involved in our development within the womb (again, not necessarily physically, but stick with me). Therefore, to say that we were born with our genders physically incorrect is to say that God made a mistake. If God made mistakes, then He wouldn't be God. The Bible would be incorrect and hypocritical in many ways. Everything about Christianity would be quickly and rightfully thrown into question, just from one simple mistake by God. Because I am personally convinced that the Bible (in it's original script) is perfectly accurate, I therefore do not believe that God makes mistakes. As a result, I believe that being born with a physically incorrect gender isn't viable, because that would require a God who cannot make mistakes to make a mistake.

Hopefully I wasn't too confusing with my wording there, lol.

As the popular saying goes: "Hate the sin, not the sinner". In the same way, I don't respect the choice to be transgendered. I definitely respect the people, I just don't necessarily respect their choices.

As a final point: If gender can be controlled by feelings, not by physical attributes, then that makes gender relative. Gender is supposed to be a truth about yourself, correct? If gender is relative, then that means that the truth about your gender relative as well. If that truth is relative, it's no longer truth, since truth is based on facts. If your 'psychological' gender violates the fact that you're physically [insert gender here], then you're violating physical facts (DNA, body structure, etc). Therefore, saying that your physical gender is incorrect, and therefore your body's DNA is flawed, is saying that the truth about your body is incorrect. If truth is incorrect, it is no longer truth. Therefore, if this truth has no longer become truth, but is instead relative, then the way people refer to you is also based on the same relative truth. Since I believe (as I described above) that being truthfully transgendered would require God to no longer be God (since truth is based on facts, and the Bible states as a fact that God cannot violate His perfect nature: He doesn't make mistakes), the truth I understand and believe in states that you've made a decision I can (and choose) not to honor.

Of course, if you're not a Bible-believing Christian, everything I just said is completely worthless to you.

I feel like my wording could easily confuse people, so please don't hesitate to ask clarifying questions. In addition, there are quite a few other aspects of transgendered-ness that I chose not to touch on. If people hate on me enough, I may end up explaining other facets of transgenderedness that I chose not to touch on today.

Myelin : To be completely fair, phobia means 'a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.' (source: Dictionary.com) Personally, it doesn't appear as though tgags a fear of transgendered people. You're accusing him of abusing transgendered people, not of being afraid of them.

Also, if someone has a psychological condition, we generally try to treat it, not encourage it... (example: rather than pushing to make autistic people heads of society or culture, simply because they're autistic, we're attempting to find a cure). If trans is a psychological condition, we should be looking for treatments to help these people, not fighting to ensure their right to have this condition.

To clarify, I'm not saying I believe trans is a psychological condition. I'm simply saying that, if it was, we're going about this all wrong. We shouldn't be fighting over it, we should be trying to fix it.

mrfe : I understand your sentiment, but remember that you are taking some literal meanings to hear here. The "phobia" in transphobia, as is the case with homophobia, refers more to contempt and mistreatment than to fear.

Also please do mind that being transgender isn't an illness, and I never stated that. Dysphoria, which is the feeling that transgendered people experience when in the wrong body and being treated as the wrong gender is the actual condition. The treatment for dysphoria is transition, that is in most cases to undergo body-altering procedures and to be treated as the correct gender (by correct I mean the one they identify as)  And remember this is not me saying that, it's the APA. Attempting to "treat" trans people by making them conform to the gender assigned to them at birth is ineffective and often harmful, and is known to end fatally (again see: Leelah Alcorn) So I'm not "fighting for their right to have this condition" I'm fighting for their right to not be hurt and abused  by people exacerbating the effects of the condition, and for people to allow their treatment (transition).

Also transgender people do not "change their gender based on feelings." There is ample evidence demonstrating differences in brain chemistry between transgendered people and cisgendered (i.e. that are ok with he gender they were assigned at birth) people. It usually can take a while for a trans person to discover their gender, that doesn't mean they are changing it. Trans people did not make a choice, their brain is wired a different way, and it is very demeaning of you to disregard their very palpable situation as "feelings"

I'm asking, pleading, on behalf of the underrepresented trans community: don't misgender trans people, you're doing more harm than you think.

Your position is religiously motivated, and I imagine that you are staunch, but I ask of you to consider for a second that trans people have done nothing to deserve abuse, that your religious views may be cool and groovy, but it's oppressing and pushing innocent people to the edge of suicide.

mrfe : I respect all of your opinions and all, but some of that stuff was awful and just overall rude. I don't want my post to be rude, but I just have to make that clear here at the start.

Not to say you can't think what you want to think, I'm just saying that by the way you said everything, it came off as rude and arrogant. I mean, I get your whole point about the bible, but I just don't think that is overall accurate.

"If your gender matters so little that you can change it based on feelings, why can't I call you what I want based on my own feelings? Why does the pronoun I use to refer to you matter, if you can change your gender based on feelings?"

Well, you can. You don't really get the chance to understand all of this unless you are in that kind of situation, being a transgender and just getting all of that hate from people. If you want to call someone the opposite of what they want based on your own opinion, go ahead but that person WILL be affected. If someone knows that this person hates what they want to be and just calls them the opposite, then that really does affect the person who you are talking to. Sometimes it is just better to save someone else's feelings by calling them what they believe themselves to be, then just go on your own opinions, which really they normally don't care about. Overall yes, if you want to call someone a boy and they want to be called a girl, then go ahead, but you really do have no idea how much that affects them.

Leggy was right. How? Well, you are a man. This is just on that whole thing of just being a nice person. Some people really do believe that they didn't get the luck of the draw and turned out as the opposite of what they wanted to be. If someone desires to be different, why won't you just let them at least think they're different. If people trick them into thinking they're different, that means just about everything to them.

Now your last sentence in the part after what leggy said, was awful. You could not have POSSIBLY phrased that worse. You aren't bowing down to someone who just wants to be a different person. And a waste of energy? That is rude and just disrespectful. That little section was really unnecessary for you to say.

Well, I can't disagree with you about God. I do believe that God does create us from the beginning to the end. But, sometimes God just doesn't match up the right soul with the right person. This may sound weird, but that isn't a mistake, it is just fate that you won't be who you want to be. This whole religion thing is something I can't really argue with or for, but I believe that God put us all together and didn't make a mistake, but everything just didn't come out perfect. But really, it is perfectly reasonable that people change their minds, and do go against God. That isn't a sin though, as it is kind of your decision and not one God should be able to make for you.Taking religion into this is only something that may win over Christians, as you said later "Of course, if you're not a Bible-believing Christian, everything I just said is completely worthless to you." so those people who aren't Bible-believing Christians, have less of a chance with siding with you, but for people like you, that is a pretty good point, I just don't say the same thing.

Again, in NO way is being transgender a sin. That again is really something that would have been best if you left out. If you really think that not liking who you are (aka the person God made you) than do you think you're perfect? Being transgender is just like people thinking other bad things about themselves, its nothing too huge. That spot just shouldn't be added, but I do kind of get where you are coming from with that.

Gender is always relative. With this you are also going against genderfluid people, and that really isn't at all the point of this thread so I won't touch on that but gender is a whole bunch of things. The fact is, gender doesn't say what you are; that is the job of sex. You can be a girl, but be male. If your gender is the opposite of your sex, then that is how it is. Just to say, if someone is genderfluid, then it is fine to call them by their sex as they are always changing, but transgender people RARELY think differently as according to what you said, " I don't have the time, energy, or patience to bow to your pronoun desires. It's wasted energy, imo." it doesn't really take all too much energy to say "she" instead of "he" and "he" instead of "she". It really isn't hard to refer to someone as something else, and if you don't really respect their choices to want to be that, then you have it all wrong. I mean, yes you are entitled to your opinion, but just don't be rude about it.

I would really prefer that you don't break out all of those other things you said you "may end up explaining other facets of transgenderedness that I chose not to touch on today." but feel free too, and I'll be very willing to explain all of this to you, as I think it is important for people to really try to go about this whole situation with all the transgendered people carefully, and not just go spouting out opinion, as yeah, that does hurt transgendered people.

And no, being transgendered is not a physiological condition that can be treated. You can't tell people what they have to think and you defiantly can't cure the fact that people don't like who they are. And really, fighting over it is absolutely not what we should be doing, but as you know, people get defensive about what they strongly believe in, and respect for transgendered people is what I VERY strongly believe in.

mrfe : Transgender people don't just change their gender randomly based on their feelings it's the way they are and the way their brain is wired. While it may be possible that there are people doing it to get attention, those are in the minority and referring to all transgendered people as doing such is quite inconsiderate.

What is the harm in letting a person identify the gender they want to be identified as? That doesn't stop them from being rational thinking human beings who can contribute to society just as much as anyone else can. It doesn't really require much of "your energy" to refer them as the pronoun, it's not like everyone out there is transgender. You're not bowing down to them you're doing it as a sign of you respecting that person.

Now while I'm an atheist and I don't think my mindset about that will change anytime soon, if we assume that there is a god, why would he then create people with this kind of mindset if he doesn't want them to identify as the opposite gender? If god is all knowning and perfect why would he allow this to happen in the first place? Not trying to start a religious debate here just wanting to give a different way of seeing it.

No identifying as a transgendered person isn't a psychological condition (not neccesairly implying that you think it is just clarifying) in the same way as other psychological conditions. Like I said identifying as the opposite gender does not in any way shape or form stop them from doing any normal action or keep from being normal rational thinking human beings, unlike autism which has very clear effects on a humans development.

Like anyone, I would respect a trangendering person as long he or she respected me back . I have a friend here who is transgendered, and I see no reason for me to look at her in any other way than I look at my friends who are not transgendered.

TheJmsGamer : *Hugs* !

Here is question for those who believe homosexuality or bisexuality or transgender is a choice, though - if being attracted to people of the same sex or being attracted to people of either the same or opposite sexes is a choice, I'd like a description of what you believe the scene of the choice being made would look like. I am NOT trying to be disrespectful to you in any way, but just entertain me, please .

Anyway, I find it kind of strange that people who believe homosexuality and all that is a choice (SPECIFICALLY a sin) due to their faith stating that God does not make mistakes, whereas people are being born with horrible, horrible diseases, and they are not blamed on God. Like... what ?

Do people "choose" to have autism? Do people "choose" to have cancer? I could go on forever here.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in God (and I am PERFECTLY fine with those who don't ), and I do NOT believe He makes mistakes. I believe He is love, kindness, and good stuff, and He placed all the cells on Earth and monitored them while they were evolving or something . Yeah, I am a bit scientific. But when a mistake happens, it is not because of Him.

I believe violating other people's rights is sinful. I believe murdering is sinful, I believe physically harming others is sinful, I believe emotionally harming others is sinful, but I do not believe loving others is sinful, and that's what these people do. They LOVE. I do NOT find ANYTHING to do with LOVE sinful.

Transgendered people who do not violate other people's rights should not be disrespected at all. They mind their own business, so you should mind yours likewise.


mrfe : Oh, cool! I did not agree with all of your post, but I definitely agreed with some of it ! The whole "hate the sin, not the sinner" thing is something I live by. I try not to "hate" altogether, but there are definitely some things that irritate me a lot . It's so cool that you respect the people, though, even though it's not their (what you call) choices . That's all I needed to know for me to still consider you "cool", ha, ha . *High fives*!

As for me, I'm not transgendered, and I like guys . I do sometimes wonder how life might be easier as a guy, though xD. Anyway, that's all from me for this post!

I love all of you guys < 3!

I can't put this any more simply than this. Yes.

camkunimura : I really am stumped as to how I should answer this. In reality, I disapprove of gays, trannys, and all the rest. I believe that GOD created us the way he wanted us to be. But as much as it sickens me that people do these kinds of things, I do really feel sorry for them in a way. I feel like they do it because they are still searching for who they are, because they refused their original identity, but if it would help them to find who they really are, I guess yes, I would still respect them. We are to hate the sin and not the sinner as Christians. So I believe this might fall under that. But don't think that would mean that I approve of it.

FaithFighter : thank you but in the LGBT community, we don't want or need your pity, your approval, and your opinion is my worth my time or any of our time. Also don't ever use the slur tranny.

I would respect them in the sense that I wouldn't make fun of them about it or try to convince them not to be transgendered. But, I would not call a guy a girl, or the other way around. I see that as special treatment, not respect, and that wouldn't exactly be equal, would it?

From my point of view, if I respect a guy's decision to want to be a girl, he should also respect my decision to refer to him as male.

I won't lie with someone about themselves.

The only part about this, that I am not sure about is if they actually got the sex change, however, then I thought about those rare situations in which a male has to have their testicles taken off or something.

Cancer is one such situation if I recall correctly.

If gender is decided by your sex organs purely, then what do we call those guys?

Well, he still has the physical brain of a man, the bones, and the DNA.

When he talks he'll sound like a man, and his head is even going to be shaped differently from a woman. Of course I'll still refer to him as a guy, though it's unfortunate what he's lost.

If someone has their balls cut off, and then gets a sex change, I would say the same.

They have the bones, DNA, voice, and face of a male. They're still a guy. They just got rid of their sex organs, and attached someone else's sex organs to them, which has the DNA of another person, and was meant for their body originally.

Myelin : My apologies. Wasn't aware you considered that a slur. I don't really know the exact shades of meaning to people for some words, so if we should meet again and that happens, let me know. 

In my opinion, I think it should only matter how u feel and not others unless u seek their approval. I mean, if I came across a woman in men's clothes or vice versa, I would say he or she based on how they look from my view. If they really didn't like it and they kinda asked me to refer to them as such and such, then I'd try to.

This is going to be considered a bit of a controversial post by people that don't know what I'm talking about.

Sword legion : Sex is what's on the outside. Gender is a mental construct.

Transgendered people are, by definition, mentally ill. In order to have the delusion to genuinely have thoughts of transgenderism, you need a mental illness called "Dysphoria".

As far as I know, we live in a society where we try our hardest to allow mentally ill people to live in society with the rest of us. All in all, transgendered people are fully functioning members of society and have every right to be that in the way they intend.

It's not like they're converting people over to give them their mental illnesses. So why treat them like outcasts because of it?

So yes, if I encountered a transgendered person, I'd refer to what they'd want to be referred by simply because there's no reason why I shouldn't. It's called being a decent human being.

thing1 : Without ill-intent it's the same as people not considering you a veteran because you never went all the way.... The similarities are there.

I personally have never really cared much for gender... I'm sexually attracted to people's personalities and find humans interesting. It's why i often call people he or she randomly because it simply is what comes to mind. If someone who was born male wants to be female that's fine by me.. If doesn't matter what sexual organ they have. They are still people at the end of the day and deserve to be treated with the same respect you would give anyone else. 

I can understand why religious people have different feelings about it.. But then again i have feelings that if god was really righteous, why does he give innocent children un curable diseases and vice versa... Also how does anybody know that if god is indeed a being of some sort.. (or however people want to imagine him/her/it) that they themselves have changed their thoughts on how they want the world to be... Of course this next sentence will cause a massive "wtf is he talking about in both the religious and non-religious as it involves both concepts" but what if as human beings evolved perhaps our god evolved their mindset as well. 

I'm expecting replies like "god has no flaws" but is really changing your own opinion on something you created a flaw?, or is it just development....

At the end of the day, I don't care what gender you are, or what you want to be, If you're a decent person I'll treat you like one. If not i won't it's that simple. Personality to me has always and will always be more important.... It's why i can be attracted to pretty much anyone...

We're all human beings.  I'll respect anyone so long as they are respectful towards me.  Does it weird me out?  Yes.    Had a colleague that was transgender.  Did it weird me out?  Yes.     I don't understand that mindset and he made one hell of an ugly woman.  She was a good person though, very intelligent, and well respected within her work community.

No one should disrespect anyone because of the way they appear.  Only judge, if ever, by the actions they make.

Err... of course? I respect anyone that respects my person and property.

Now, as far as accepting that person it might take a while. Despite all the readings I've made and talks I've attended I'm still confused about their person. I can understand transsexuals - they completely become the other sex - but I'm still confused with transgender, i.e. people who (stereotypically) act like the other sex but keep the "original kit" for lack of a better expression.

If we become friends I might even come to understand his/her mindset. But until then I won't hide that I will feel uncomfortable for being next to such an "unusual person." It's not discrimination it's human nature.

I accept any kind of people, but as some people has said, it will be a little uncomfortable at first. Any experience you haven't faced before feels strange in one way or another, and personally knowing someone "different" sure feels strange. 

I can be friends with anyone that is open to make new friends. All friendships need some time to grow and mature, and maybe the day when I stop feeling uncomfortable around that person can eventually come. 

About the discussion on how should we call them... Well, the answer is simple: what each individual wants to be called. At first, I will always refer to them as males, unless they don't want to be called that way. Each individual is different, so each one has an opinion of their own, no matter if it's shared with others or unique.

What's so hard about it?! If someone wants to be identified as a male, identify them as a male! If they want to be identified as a female, identify them as a female. It really isn't that hard. They aren't hurting anyone, and all they ask for is respect. For some people on this forum to say they won't call someone there preferred pronouns because they're "uncomfortable" is an irrelevant reason, I mean, come on! You're UNCOMFORTABLE?!?!?! Cry me a river. Even religion is a better excuse than that. 

Yes. Because I have no right to judge anyone. They have the right to be who ever they want and who am I to stop them. I am not God and therefore have no right to pass judgement. Now respect is like everything needs to be earned not given. So as long as they are not doing it for the purpose for attention but because that is who they are than go for it. Be you because that is all you can be.

Makalya : It is easy on the surface, but we've been "conditioned" to associate certain traits with male and female. Therefore it's hard to get those constructs out.

In Quebec there is this very famous transgender lawyer (male to female) who now goes by Micheline... but who still "looks" like a man (voice, shoulder width, the "original kit"). S/he has been the object of many mockeries because s/he was probably one of the first ones in the province... plus s/he has a wife!

janus : none of that matters. call someone by there preferred pronouns. period. 

I have personally three transgender friends. This means they are not trannies, but people who have actually either went through or going to go through sex change. People I would actually call friends but I suppose there are more who I could call acquaintances or something.

I think I have discussed this subject before in some other topic but I personally don't care if you are gay, straight, bi or transgender. But I have seen a few people go through the hormonal thing when they first feel like after life of depression they are happy for the first time in their life and they drop their old habits, past lives and friends and feel like everything in their past was just ridiculous. Maybe later on they see that the new life they led was not a solution to all their problems after all. But hey, it is the life of a teenager and that is what you get when you get the hormones. You live and learn.

I already start to feel like yeah dude/dudette, I get it, you are happy now for the first time in your life and the bureaucracy sucks. I have heard it all before but hey. I guess me being bored is better than you trying to pretend something other you are not.

My love to all transgender people out there.

If I may I am going to explain my view of this so here I go. Transgender is a touchy subject which is why I tend to stay away from such things but I thought I would give my opinion. I personally do not care if a person is transgender or not because to me I do not like to judge people based on there appearance. I judge based on there personality so if someone is being a gigantic a** I tend to not like them but if they are nice I'm fine with them and we may become friends. You ask if I respect them the answer to that question is undecided for me I like how they are so different I find that very unique but It also is kind of weird but I really do not care if a person is transgender or not as long as they are nice then they are good in my book.

I don't know if I can in the majority of scenarios. People that go through the surgery seem to be rejecting their entire past. I can't respect that. My past is full of family and friends. It's full of plenty of crap, just like everyone else, and I don't think I could ever think throwing it away would be a respectable decision.

I respect people. It's not like I would go out of my way to make the person's life worse. I would treat them just like everyone else. But I don't think the action is the least bit respectable. I would discourage someone from doing it. Not only does it proclaim that your old life wasn't good enough for you, but it also will not fix the majority of problems. Many think it's a magical fix. "Poof! Problems all gone!" But it's not.

Why would you not respect another human being? If I say I'm a table, who are you to ruin my happiness and tell me I'm not a table? If they hate being the gender they were formerly, they have every right to be called the other, whether or not they are physically that gender.

Txgangsta : While they indeed "break free" from an important part of their life, you actually know some that COMPLETELY broke free of their "past life"?

If such is the case I find it sad. Putting everything in your behind must be worse than being "reprogrammed" in conversion therapy. But if such is their decision and it makes them happy without physically hurting anyone, who am I to judge?

janus :

They try to continue their old life, but they never make it. The aftermath of the surgery creates problems in nearly all social settings (work, friends, bars, family, etc). I know 3 people that have done the surgery, and 2 have moved away, never to speak to anyone that they have ever known again. The third is an employee with my dad, but she (who used to be he) had no social life prior to the surgery; the surgery gave him a social life.

You know what, I disagree. And everyone can dislike this post and call me a hater.

Transsexuals don't think they are the other sex by nature, it is by sin; we all were born into sin by Adam & Eve.

You entertain the thought at a young age that you are the opposite sex, and then as you get older you think that you are.


I'm not trying to debate this because clearly there are individuals born with both sex organs... and they have to decide who they are and possibly surgery. But if you have one sex organ it is obvious who you are.

Txgangsta : I can see your point now. Indeed such a radical change might entail more radical changes in that person's life.

tRIUNE : not true. Some people are actually born with BOTH genitalia; others are born with XXY chromosomes. Granted, it's rare but it happens (you do concede that point).

However, be careful to judge for fear of being judged yourself. I don't say I understand how they think or feel, but I would certainly not call them "deranged" as some have done for Bruce Jenner. Who are YOU to say such a thing (not aiming at you in particular)

janus : I'm not being judgmental; I'm explaining why that I don't have the respect for a transgender in the regard of them actually being the opposite sex if they were born with one sex organ and they had surgery to replace it with the opposite sex organ.

If you were born a male and want to "transgender" to a female or vice versa then I do not respect that.  You have heart issues.  You are basically saying to the God that gave you life, "I don't like what You have made and I'm 'changing' that.."  All of us have sins of some kind.  Some choose to repent of it and turn to God, others willfully deny God and continue living out their sin.  Unfortunately for those who stubbornly continue in their sin the Bible teaches,  "For the wages of sin is death..." but if you truly realise that it is actually destroying your life and you turn from it, God promises "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."  So I truly feel sorry for those who continue down this path and I deeply respect the person, but not the lifestyle they choose to live.