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03-28-24 06:05 PM

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Saudi Arabia...
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Saudi Arabia...

 

10-30-14 05:07 AM
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Yo guys, Green here with another thread. Anyway, I searched and maybe this the best forum that this thread matches it. I'll talk about Saudi Arabia. This country really really annoys me. They've gone too far. Why? Well there are many but MANY rules which doesn't even make sense. It is the only country that women are banned from driving. Wait... SERIOUSLY?! Banned from driving!? Women are also always to wear veils when they go out. The veils must cover everything but her eyes. When the women goes out, she needs to have a 'body guard'. And guess what? THAT BODY GUARD IS OF COURSE A MAN!! Saudi Arabia thinks that Men are much better than Women. Do you even know what's the difference between men and women? THEIR BODIES. Yeah, their bodies. That's the only difference. Her bodyguard must be at least their husband, father, brother, uncle or male cousin. I mean, if a woman dresses in veil only because she wants to that's okay, no problem with that. But if she is forced, WE'RE NOT OKAY WITH THAT!! Plus, women can't assist in a sports match, try new clothes etc... too much right? Why women can't do much things in Saudi Arabia? Is it because they think it's against religion? I remember in Saudi Arabia, some peopled killed a person. Why? Because that person was holding a Bible in hand. SERIOUSLY?! Saudi Arabia only accepts muslim people?!! They will murder anyone who is not muslim. They are so overprotective to women and their religion. They take religion way too seriously, no to the EXTREME. Sorry guys, I may sound a bit aggressive but this country is really really going to pay. I will never do a single step there, even though I'm muslim. So guys, do you think Saudi Arabia banned women from many things because of religion?
Yo guys, Green here with another thread. Anyway, I searched and maybe this the best forum that this thread matches it. I'll talk about Saudi Arabia. This country really really annoys me. They've gone too far. Why? Well there are many but MANY rules which doesn't even make sense. It is the only country that women are banned from driving. Wait... SERIOUSLY?! Banned from driving!? Women are also always to wear veils when they go out. The veils must cover everything but her eyes. When the women goes out, she needs to have a 'body guard'. And guess what? THAT BODY GUARD IS OF COURSE A MAN!! Saudi Arabia thinks that Men are much better than Women. Do you even know what's the difference between men and women? THEIR BODIES. Yeah, their bodies. That's the only difference. Her bodyguard must be at least their husband, father, brother, uncle or male cousin. I mean, if a woman dresses in veil only because she wants to that's okay, no problem with that. But if she is forced, WE'RE NOT OKAY WITH THAT!! Plus, women can't assist in a sports match, try new clothes etc... too much right? Why women can't do much things in Saudi Arabia? Is it because they think it's against religion? I remember in Saudi Arabia, some peopled killed a person. Why? Because that person was holding a Bible in hand. SERIOUSLY?! Saudi Arabia only accepts muslim people?!! They will murder anyone who is not muslim. They are so overprotective to women and their religion. They take religion way too seriously, no to the EXTREME. Sorry guys, I may sound a bit aggressive but this country is really really going to pay. I will never do a single step there, even though I'm muslim. So guys, do you think Saudi Arabia banned women from many things because of religion?
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10-30-14 05:15 AM
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Yeah, I'm half egyptian and thank goodness that it's not like that. I know that it's really stupid, and I find it very offending. 

Also #ThisThreadTotallyBelongsInThisForum
They go way to far I agree, Which is really sad considering Makka. 
Yeah, I'm half egyptian and thank goodness that it's not like that. I know that it's really stupid, and I find it very offending. 

Also #ThisThreadTotallyBelongsInThisForum
They go way to far I agree, Which is really sad considering Makka. 
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10-30-14 05:17 AM
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imamonster : Who's Makka? I just found that women are banned from libraries... Oh wait the city Makka?
imamonster : Who's Makka? I just found that women are banned from libraries... Oh wait the city Makka?
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10-30-14 06:36 AM
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Yeah, I meant the city makka, Because the kaaba is in makka.
Yeah, I meant the city makka, Because the kaaba is in makka.
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10-30-14 07:21 AM
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You should do more reading about the country.  Women have a literacy rate of 91% which puts Saudi Arabia much higher than many other countries.  And women are allowed in libraries.  60% of all graduating university students in 2013 were female.  They can study and educate themselves.

Also, there's no legal ban on women driving in Saudi Arabia.  They require a specific pass and there is driving in rural areas where it is a necessary for women to go outside the house.

Here's the deal.  Most women do not support loosening the religious and gender roles in the country.  They believe Allah dictated the requirement for women to be treated as they are.  The country is afraid of westernization and they do not want to lose their conservative way of life.

Like you said, it's their choice and they are generally content to be there.

Try reading Saudi literature and womens' opinions of their own way of life.  Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean their culture is oppressed. 
You should do more reading about the country.  Women have a literacy rate of 91% which puts Saudi Arabia much higher than many other countries.  And women are allowed in libraries.  60% of all graduating university students in 2013 were female.  They can study and educate themselves.

Also, there's no legal ban on women driving in Saudi Arabia.  They require a specific pass and there is driving in rural areas where it is a necessary for women to go outside the house.

Here's the deal.  Most women do not support loosening the religious and gender roles in the country.  They believe Allah dictated the requirement for women to be treated as they are.  The country is afraid of westernization and they do not want to lose their conservative way of life.

Like you said, it's their choice and they are generally content to be there.

Try reading Saudi literature and womens' opinions of their own way of life.  Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean their culture is oppressed. 
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10-30-14 08:29 AM
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greenluigi :

You mean that there is a country I can go to where women are not treated like sexual playthings and I don't have to put up with listening to my fellow employees talking about porn everyday at work? And they actually care about their women? Unlike here where the media constantly makes them out to be toys And in the summer they wear hardly any clothes?

When can I move?

In fact, when are Christians actually going to protect their women like the Bible teaches?

I'll be honest, non aggressive Muslim countries sound like decent places to live for me. I don't believe the Allah mandated it, as I do not believe that Allah is the true God. But I do know that men have a stronger desire for Sex than women, based on what they see, to where as women like a man based on his words. As of such, it's better to have women dress more conservatively, yes, I do think that they go to far in this area, but It's better overdone, than underdone.

Besides, in the U.S. there are movements to make it legal to walk anywhere you want naked now.

Muslim countries seem to be getting better.

And yeah, green, they have a male body guard there cause men are normally stronger, it's just a fact of life, denying it doesn't make anything better. Same reason we usually have men serving in the military as infantry and such. The job of a nurse is better suited for a woman.


The U.S. of A? No, we're ruined.
greenluigi :

You mean that there is a country I can go to where women are not treated like sexual playthings and I don't have to put up with listening to my fellow employees talking about porn everyday at work? And they actually care about their women? Unlike here where the media constantly makes them out to be toys And in the summer they wear hardly any clothes?

When can I move?

In fact, when are Christians actually going to protect their women like the Bible teaches?

I'll be honest, non aggressive Muslim countries sound like decent places to live for me. I don't believe the Allah mandated it, as I do not believe that Allah is the true God. But I do know that men have a stronger desire for Sex than women, based on what they see, to where as women like a man based on his words. As of such, it's better to have women dress more conservatively, yes, I do think that they go to far in this area, but It's better overdone, than underdone.

Besides, in the U.S. there are movements to make it legal to walk anywhere you want naked now.

Muslim countries seem to be getting better.

And yeah, green, they have a male body guard there cause men are normally stronger, it's just a fact of life, denying it doesn't make anything better. Same reason we usually have men serving in the military as infantry and such. The job of a nurse is better suited for a woman.


The U.S. of A? No, we're ruined.
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11-12-14 11:24 PM
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warmaker : "Most women do not support loosening the religious and gender roles in the country... Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean their culture is oppressed. "

And majority rules doesn't mean that a culture isn't oppressive. If there are any people who can't live freely as they wish simply because of their gender, then they're oppressed. Just because most of them are fine with it doesn't mean that it's fine.

Sword legion : http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Pornography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia

Men shouldn't need to protect women or force them to be modest. But whatever, if you think Saudi Arabia is such a paradise you can try to move there now.
warmaker : "Most women do not support loosening the religious and gender roles in the country... Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean their culture is oppressed. "

And majority rules doesn't mean that a culture isn't oppressive. If there are any people who can't live freely as they wish simply because of their gender, then they're oppressed. Just because most of them are fine with it doesn't mean that it's fine.

Sword legion : http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Pornography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Saudi_Arabia

Men shouldn't need to protect women or force them to be modest. But whatever, if you think Saudi Arabia is such a paradise you can try to move there now.
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11-13-14 01:18 AM
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soxfan849 :

What are you saying about freedom of religion in their country?

Are you saying that they are free because Islam isn't the mandatory religion there?

What are you saying about pornography? Are you just pointing out that Muslims participate in it? Are you trying to say that The religion of Islam permits pornographic material? Or are you trying to say that it is legal in Saudi Arabia? Or even in Muslim countries in general?

What are you trying to say here?

Better yet, why are you using a questionable website like wikiislam to vouch for your statistics?



"Men shouldn't need to protect women or force them to be modest."

Please explain why this is wrong, this is supposed to be the "debate logic forum", not "Post your opinion and dislike minorities" forum.



"if you think Saudi Arabia is such a paradise. . . "

I totally said that Saudia Arabia was a paradise and wanted to move there as soon as possible.

That's what everyone thought who read my post, and that's why I made it.

'Cause I want to go to Saudia Arabia, that's exactly what I said I would do.







soxfan849 :

What are you saying about freedom of religion in their country?

Are you saying that they are free because Islam isn't the mandatory religion there?

What are you saying about pornography? Are you just pointing out that Muslims participate in it? Are you trying to say that The religion of Islam permits pornographic material? Or are you trying to say that it is legal in Saudi Arabia? Or even in Muslim countries in general?

What are you trying to say here?

Better yet, why are you using a questionable website like wikiislam to vouch for your statistics?



"Men shouldn't need to protect women or force them to be modest."

Please explain why this is wrong, this is supposed to be the "debate logic forum", not "Post your opinion and dislike minorities" forum.



"if you think Saudi Arabia is such a paradise. . . "

I totally said that Saudia Arabia was a paradise and wanted to move there as soon as possible.

That's what everyone thought who read my post, and that's why I made it.

'Cause I want to go to Saudia Arabia, that's exactly what I said I would do.







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11-13-14 06:03 AM
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soxfan849 : Culture is a tough thing to discuss because one group can't possible understand the view points of others.  Think of how restricting the U.S. and other countries are also.  We have gun laws, speed limits, rules, regulations, laws, and limitations.  It doesn't mean we're oppressed either.

Freedom and oppression is a majority idea.  I'm not allowed to walk out in the street and stab someone in the chest with a knife.  Does that mean I'm oppressed?  Of course it is an over-the-top example but that's the idea.  Just because certain rules are put in effect doesn't mean people are oppressed, especially when they are accepted and appreciated by that population.

No one said Saudi Arabia is a paradise.  I have no idea where you got that from.

We did say, however, that the rules of that country are generally supported by the population, women included.  That doesn't make them oppressed.
soxfan849 : Culture is a tough thing to discuss because one group can't possible understand the view points of others.  Think of how restricting the U.S. and other countries are also.  We have gun laws, speed limits, rules, regulations, laws, and limitations.  It doesn't mean we're oppressed either.

Freedom and oppression is a majority idea.  I'm not allowed to walk out in the street and stab someone in the chest with a knife.  Does that mean I'm oppressed?  Of course it is an over-the-top example but that's the idea.  Just because certain rules are put in effect doesn't mean people are oppressed, especially when they are accepted and appreciated by that population.

No one said Saudi Arabia is a paradise.  I have no idea where you got that from.

We did say, however, that the rules of that country are generally supported by the population, women included.  That doesn't make them oppressed.
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11-13-14 09:31 PM
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warmaker : There's a huge difference between women being able to do the same thing as men, and being able to harm someone else. My point was simply that there are women who don't agree with the majority and there's nothing that they can do about it.

The paradise comment was in response to Sword legion asking when he can move.

Sword legion :

The link about freedom of religion was to show you that you wouldn't be welcomed with open arms. If you read it, you'd see that freedom of religion is severely limited in Saudi Arabia.

And wikiislam wasn't a source for those statistics. The sites listed in its references section was. The point was that people in the middle east view disgusting material a lot, too.

""Men shouldn't need to protect women or force them to be modest."
Please explain why this is wrong, this is supposed to be the "debate logic forum", not "Post your opinion and dislike minorities" forum."

What? First off, because women are people, too, and are fully capable of making their own decisions. Second off, I didn't say anything to suggest disliking minorities. Why do you think it's the job of men to control how women dress or act?

"'Cause I want to go to Saudia Arabia, that's exactly what I said I would do."

You definitely said "When can I move?" after describing how you think Saudi Arabia's dress code is a good thing. I was telling you that you can move now.
warmaker : There's a huge difference between women being able to do the same thing as men, and being able to harm someone else. My point was simply that there are women who don't agree with the majority and there's nothing that they can do about it.

The paradise comment was in response to Sword legion asking when he can move.

Sword legion :

The link about freedom of religion was to show you that you wouldn't be welcomed with open arms. If you read it, you'd see that freedom of religion is severely limited in Saudi Arabia.

And wikiislam wasn't a source for those statistics. The sites listed in its references section was. The point was that people in the middle east view disgusting material a lot, too.

""Men shouldn't need to protect women or force them to be modest."
Please explain why this is wrong, this is supposed to be the "debate logic forum", not "Post your opinion and dislike minorities" forum."

What? First off, because women are people, too, and are fully capable of making their own decisions. Second off, I didn't say anything to suggest disliking minorities. Why do you think it's the job of men to control how women dress or act?

"'Cause I want to go to Saudia Arabia, that's exactly what I said I would do."

You definitely said "When can I move?" after describing how you think Saudi Arabia's dress code is a good thing. I was telling you that you can move now.
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11-13-14 11:20 PM
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soxfan849 :

"You definitely said "When can I move?" after describing how you think Saudi Arabia's dress code is a good thing. I was telling you that you can move now."


Totally going to move to Saudi Arabia cause it is a paradise and way better than the states. I mean, yeah, it's way better than the U.S.

Absolutely.


You're taking what I've said and saying I meant things that I did not mean. Much of my original post was made of exaggerations to show green to look at the other side of things.

This thread was not in the debate forum at first, and I had no intentions of backing up what I said as if it were serious.

(cause it wasn't.)


"The point was that people in the middle east view disgusting material a lot, too."

Yeah. People in the Middle East view disgusting material. What part of my argument are you adressing?

Would you quote me directly and explain here?


"First off, because women are people, too."

Children are people too. But a certain group of other people, (adults) are constantly restraining them, and protecting them. Or oppressing them if you prefer.


Are Children equal to other people?

Better yet, how do you know a certain kind of governing is counted as equal?

Majority opinion?


On a side note, I know you didn't say anything about disliking minorities. I was addressing this forum and what happens in it in general.


"Why do you think it's the job of men to control how women dress or act?"

I never said that, nor would I say that. If you want to say that I said something, then quote me. Not this, "You said I'llrephrasewhatyousaidthewayIwanttoofillintheblank" Stuff. Accurate quotes are what I will accept when addressing what I have stated.



"after describing how you think Saudi Arabia's dress code is a good thing"


Didn't say that either. My exact words were-

"As of such, it's better to have women dress more conservatively, yes, I do think that they go to far in this area, but It's better overdone, than underdone."



I didn't say it was a good thing. I said it was better than underdoing it.


I think that you're trying to manipulate my words in misleading ways.
soxfan849 :

"You definitely said "When can I move?" after describing how you think Saudi Arabia's dress code is a good thing. I was telling you that you can move now."


Totally going to move to Saudi Arabia cause it is a paradise and way better than the states. I mean, yeah, it's way better than the U.S.

Absolutely.


You're taking what I've said and saying I meant things that I did not mean. Much of my original post was made of exaggerations to show green to look at the other side of things.

This thread was not in the debate forum at first, and I had no intentions of backing up what I said as if it were serious.

(cause it wasn't.)


"The point was that people in the middle east view disgusting material a lot, too."

Yeah. People in the Middle East view disgusting material. What part of my argument are you adressing?

Would you quote me directly and explain here?


"First off, because women are people, too."

Children are people too. But a certain group of other people, (adults) are constantly restraining them, and protecting them. Or oppressing them if you prefer.


Are Children equal to other people?

Better yet, how do you know a certain kind of governing is counted as equal?

Majority opinion?


On a side note, I know you didn't say anything about disliking minorities. I was addressing this forum and what happens in it in general.


"Why do you think it's the job of men to control how women dress or act?"

I never said that, nor would I say that. If you want to say that I said something, then quote me. Not this, "You said I'llrephrasewhatyousaidthewayIwanttoofillintheblank" Stuff. Accurate quotes are what I will accept when addressing what I have stated.



"after describing how you think Saudi Arabia's dress code is a good thing"


Didn't say that either. My exact words were-

"As of such, it's better to have women dress more conservatively, yes, I do think that they go to far in this area, but It's better overdone, than underdone."



I didn't say it was a good thing. I said it was better than underdoing it.


I think that you're trying to manipulate my words in misleading ways.
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(edited by Sword legion on 11-13-14 11:25 PM)    

11-14-14 12:01 AM
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Sword legion :

Nothing in your post suggests that you were exaggerating about thinking it's a better place than the US. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply taking what you said seriously. I knew you weren't thinking about moving, but I think it's a fair thing to say if you think it's so much better over there.

The point of bringing up the fact that people in the middle east view disgusting material online as well was to address your statement that they care about women rather than thinking of them as toys. I'd also be surprised if they don't about some of their porn habits with friends, so you might end up exposed to some of that from co-workers there as well.

And are you really comparing the relationship between men and women to that of adults and children? There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them.

"I never said that, nor would I say that. If you want to say that I said something, then quote me."

This was based on your claim that Saudi Arabia's dress code was overdoing things, but that was a better case than what we have here. That combined with you pressing me to defend the claim that men shouldn't force women to be modest. If you don't think men should be forcing women to be modest - which would be controlling how they dress and act - then what's the point of pressing me to defend it? The question was based off of an assumption, but it was a fair one to make, no?

And I'm not trying to manipulate anything that you've said. I was trying to attack the positions that you seemed to have. Apparently I've misunderstood some of the things you've said, though. Instead of pressing me for explanations, why not clarify your actual position?
Sword legion :

Nothing in your post suggests that you were exaggerating about thinking it's a better place than the US. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was simply taking what you said seriously. I knew you weren't thinking about moving, but I think it's a fair thing to say if you think it's so much better over there.

The point of bringing up the fact that people in the middle east view disgusting material online as well was to address your statement that they care about women rather than thinking of them as toys. I'd also be surprised if they don't about some of their porn habits with friends, so you might end up exposed to some of that from co-workers there as well.

And are you really comparing the relationship between men and women to that of adults and children? There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them.

"I never said that, nor would I say that. If you want to say that I said something, then quote me."

This was based on your claim that Saudi Arabia's dress code was overdoing things, but that was a better case than what we have here. That combined with you pressing me to defend the claim that men shouldn't force women to be modest. If you don't think men should be forcing women to be modest - which would be controlling how they dress and act - then what's the point of pressing me to defend it? The question was based off of an assumption, but it was a fair one to make, no?

And I'm not trying to manipulate anything that you've said. I was trying to attack the positions that you seemed to have. Apparently I've misunderstood some of the things you've said, though. Instead of pressing me for explanations, why not clarify your actual position?
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soxfan849 :

"Nothing in your post suggests that you were exaggerating about thinking it's a better place than the US."


No.


Just, no.


My post should be plenty clear, it's not saying that the Saudi Arabia is better than the U.S. As a whole. It is about one topic! How women dress, and illegality of Pornography!


I've already explained to you what I meant. Arguing further isn't going to do any good.


"If you don't think men should be forcing women to be modest - which would be controlling how they dress and act - then what's the point of pressing me to defend it? The question was based off of an assumption, but it was a fair one to make, no?"


Not in the debates that I've been in here in the past. No, you can't just up and do that. In the debates I used to be in, you could assume nothing about your opponent, or else you may be trying to fit words in their mouth. You know what it means to assume.

I asked you to defend that point to compare it against my own structure of morality and see who's is more frail. I mean, if you're just saying these things, then they hold no value. If you have reasons for saying them, then they are stronger. I wish only to test the strength of your said statements.

"There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them. "


What are those reasons?


I think you are trying to manipulate what I've said.

You take my initial post, which was not even meant to land in this forum, and attack for a bunch of standings that are not even cored. These are exaggerations. I'm trying to show Green something! But I've already told you twice!



"Apparently I've misunderstood some of the things you've said, though. Instead of pressing me for explanations, why not clarify your actual position?"


I believe that women should have certain rights, but need to be protected more than males, as women are more often the target for crimes like rape due to certain physical disadvantages. I believe that it would be wise to have a male accompany a woman out in public, although a weapon like a concealed firearm could act as a nice alternative.

Also, why travel alone?

Most places are not dangerous, but a few of them are. Some kidnappers are fairly subtle at placed like parking lots, but most crimes take place during the night, that's when you have to be aware. There are less people around to witness a crime, and the dark will cover certain veracious actions.

I don't think that a "male bodyguard" Is absolutely necessary, it's just an option and would be wise in certain situations. Two women in a group can work well though. Although three I would probably proclaim safe.

There's just something psychological about it when a male is accompanying a woman.


I believe that the Word of God tells us the difference between right and wrong. No man or woman has the right to decide what count's as right or wrong. Yes, we should be wise as we judge the difference between right and wrong in certain situations, but we judge based on what we already know of our creator's standards.

On the issue of dress code. It's all about what people can handle, and some women, who dress skimpily are not considerate of their male counterparts. Especially young teens going through puberty. It causes both physiological, and physical stress on said counterpart human beings of the other gender. Respect would be appreciated.

Because of the stumbling block that certain idea of dressing creates, I would be considered immoral because it is provocative. While true, self control is an important issue, the tempting of others is never a virtue. I'm not saying that a woman who dresses poorly is at fault if she is raped, but the stress she causes other males, some of whom have higher or lower sex drive is not justified. I have seeing stuff I don't want to, especially at the wrong time of the year, it just. . . AUUGH!

It's also not very nice for married people, which can provoke jealousy, though not as bad as porn. Which really should not be legal. It's cause enough problems.


My biggest complaint is against swim suites.

Honest, how did our culture begin accepting people walking around regularly in basically. . . underwear?

I know it's not quite the same, but still, that's about the amount it covers!



That's what I like about certain Muslim beliefs. That's where they get it right. Even if they overdo it, it's not as bad as we get it here. We have more problems here than they do there on account of their dress code.
soxfan849 :

"Nothing in your post suggests that you were exaggerating about thinking it's a better place than the US."


No.


Just, no.


My post should be plenty clear, it's not saying that the Saudi Arabia is better than the U.S. As a whole. It is about one topic! How women dress, and illegality of Pornography!


I've already explained to you what I meant. Arguing further isn't going to do any good.


"If you don't think men should be forcing women to be modest - which would be controlling how they dress and act - then what's the point of pressing me to defend it? The question was based off of an assumption, but it was a fair one to make, no?"


Not in the debates that I've been in here in the past. No, you can't just up and do that. In the debates I used to be in, you could assume nothing about your opponent, or else you may be trying to fit words in their mouth. You know what it means to assume.

I asked you to defend that point to compare it against my own structure of morality and see who's is more frail. I mean, if you're just saying these things, then they hold no value. If you have reasons for saying them, then they are stronger. I wish only to test the strength of your said statements.

"There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them. "


What are those reasons?


I think you are trying to manipulate what I've said.

You take my initial post, which was not even meant to land in this forum, and attack for a bunch of standings that are not even cored. These are exaggerations. I'm trying to show Green something! But I've already told you twice!



"Apparently I've misunderstood some of the things you've said, though. Instead of pressing me for explanations, why not clarify your actual position?"


I believe that women should have certain rights, but need to be protected more than males, as women are more often the target for crimes like rape due to certain physical disadvantages. I believe that it would be wise to have a male accompany a woman out in public, although a weapon like a concealed firearm could act as a nice alternative.

Also, why travel alone?

Most places are not dangerous, but a few of them are. Some kidnappers are fairly subtle at placed like parking lots, but most crimes take place during the night, that's when you have to be aware. There are less people around to witness a crime, and the dark will cover certain veracious actions.

I don't think that a "male bodyguard" Is absolutely necessary, it's just an option and would be wise in certain situations. Two women in a group can work well though. Although three I would probably proclaim safe.

There's just something psychological about it when a male is accompanying a woman.


I believe that the Word of God tells us the difference between right and wrong. No man or woman has the right to decide what count's as right or wrong. Yes, we should be wise as we judge the difference between right and wrong in certain situations, but we judge based on what we already know of our creator's standards.

On the issue of dress code. It's all about what people can handle, and some women, who dress skimpily are not considerate of their male counterparts. Especially young teens going through puberty. It causes both physiological, and physical stress on said counterpart human beings of the other gender. Respect would be appreciated.

Because of the stumbling block that certain idea of dressing creates, I would be considered immoral because it is provocative. While true, self control is an important issue, the tempting of others is never a virtue. I'm not saying that a woman who dresses poorly is at fault if she is raped, but the stress she causes other males, some of whom have higher or lower sex drive is not justified. I have seeing stuff I don't want to, especially at the wrong time of the year, it just. . . AUUGH!

It's also not very nice for married people, which can provoke jealousy, though not as bad as porn. Which really should not be legal. It's cause enough problems.


My biggest complaint is against swim suites.

Honest, how did our culture begin accepting people walking around regularly in basically. . . underwear?

I know it's not quite the same, but still, that's about the amount it covers!



That's what I like about certain Muslim beliefs. That's where they get it right. Even if they overdo it, it's not as bad as we get it here. We have more problems here than they do there on account of their dress code.
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11-14-14 04:51 PM
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Sword legion : You do realize your posts are riddled with opinion, right? 

"I believe... I believe... I don't think... I believe... My biggest complaint... That's what I like about..." 

"Totally going to move to Saudi Arabia cause it is a paradise and way better than the states. I mean, yeah, it's way better than the U.S.
Absolutely." Sarcasm doesn't travel well through text, unless your intention was to actually state that Saudi Arabia was a better place than the states. Don't attack sox, when you clearly said this directly, and it could easily be misconstrued as a part of the whole, rather than a single topic. 

Also going to address this: "Honest, how did our culture begin accepting people walking around regularly in basically. . . underwear?" 

Everyone was naked in the beginning. Why did that stop being the social norm, eh? There's no reason to get all uppity about a bit of skin. It's our natural baring. If anything, it would be illogical to assume that we should not be naked, except during the cold temperatures of the winter, fall, and early spring. Just because you don't like something, does not mean that everyone should have to follow this sort of belief. That's where we're oppressed. That's a definition of oppression. You are forcing your beliefs on others. If you want to move to a country that actually allows for that sort of thing to happen, be my guest. But, of course, you don't actually want to do that, do you? 
Sword legion : You do realize your posts are riddled with opinion, right? 

"I believe... I believe... I don't think... I believe... My biggest complaint... That's what I like about..." 

"Totally going to move to Saudi Arabia cause it is a paradise and way better than the states. I mean, yeah, it's way better than the U.S.
Absolutely." Sarcasm doesn't travel well through text, unless your intention was to actually state that Saudi Arabia was a better place than the states. Don't attack sox, when you clearly said this directly, and it could easily be misconstrued as a part of the whole, rather than a single topic. 

Also going to address this: "Honest, how did our culture begin accepting people walking around regularly in basically. . . underwear?" 

Everyone was naked in the beginning. Why did that stop being the social norm, eh? There's no reason to get all uppity about a bit of skin. It's our natural baring. If anything, it would be illogical to assume that we should not be naked, except during the cold temperatures of the winter, fall, and early spring. Just because you don't like something, does not mean that everyone should have to follow this sort of belief. That's where we're oppressed. That's a definition of oppression. You are forcing your beliefs on others. If you want to move to a country that actually allows for that sort of thing to happen, be my guest. But, of course, you don't actually want to do that, do you? 
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11-15-14 01:11 AM
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Sword legion :

Why do you think the illegality of pornography is so good? The link I posted shows that they still view it - which will happen anywhere porn is illegal as long as it's hosted somewhere on the internet.

And sure, it's not a good tactic to assume things in a formal debate. But that's not what this is. This isn't a club. I'm not debating for sport. Don't press me on a statement unless you actually want to debate it, or have a different position. If you want to ask me to explain myself, feel free. But when you attack me for making a statement without defending it, you come off as hostile and seem as if you disagree.

""There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them. "


What are those reasons?"


I won't waste time explaining why children need adults to help them and protect them, or how women don't need the same protection as a child would. That's a topic for another debate, and one that I won't be participating in.

"You take my initial post, which was not even meant to land in this forum, and attack for a bunch of standings that are not even cored."

I had no way to know where you thought the post was intended to land. I only saw it in this forum. And none of your posts have really done a great job of distancing you from some of the ideas I'm trying to attack.

"I believe that women should have certain rights, but need to be protected more than males, as women are more often the target for crimes like rape due to certain physical disadvantages. I believe that it would be wise to have a male accompany a woman out in public, although a weapon like a concealed firearm could act as a nice alternative."

So because someone might want to harm a woman, she should be forced to either carry a weapon - something she might not be comfortable doing - or have to be accompanied by someone else? Surely you're aware of how absolutely inconvenient it would be to have to have someone else who could go out with you at all times. There would be times when a woman would be forced to stay home because she didn't have someone to go somewhere with her. That's absolutely ridiculous and a poor way to deal with handling crime. We should be cracking down on the criminals, not the victims - or potential victims.

"Also, why travel alone?"

Because sometimes you pretty much have to. My sister travels alone on a regular basis to attend classes in college. If she had to be accompanied by another person, I don't think she'd be able to finish her education. There's just no one who can spend their time following her around. That would be absurd.

"It's also not very nice for married people, which can provoke jealousy, though not as bad as porn. Which really should not be legal. It's cause enough problems."

There are plenty of couples who are fine with their spouse looking at porn. There are couples who watch porn together. There are couples in open relationships. How does porn hurt them? And what would making porn illegal do, other than create a country full of criminals? Unless it's illegal in every country, it will always be on the internet. And it's not that easy to regulate what people watch on the internet. Sometimes there are better solutions than just making something illegal.

"We have more problems here than they do there on account of their dress code."

What problems are those, exactly? If it's everything that you've been talking about, then I couldn't disagree more. I think we have it way better.
Sword legion :

Why do you think the illegality of pornography is so good? The link I posted shows that they still view it - which will happen anywhere porn is illegal as long as it's hosted somewhere on the internet.

And sure, it's not a good tactic to assume things in a formal debate. But that's not what this is. This isn't a club. I'm not debating for sport. Don't press me on a statement unless you actually want to debate it, or have a different position. If you want to ask me to explain myself, feel free. But when you attack me for making a statement without defending it, you come off as hostile and seem as if you disagree.

""There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them. "


What are those reasons?"


I won't waste time explaining why children need adults to help them and protect them, or how women don't need the same protection as a child would. That's a topic for another debate, and one that I won't be participating in.

"You take my initial post, which was not even meant to land in this forum, and attack for a bunch of standings that are not even cored."

I had no way to know where you thought the post was intended to land. I only saw it in this forum. And none of your posts have really done a great job of distancing you from some of the ideas I'm trying to attack.

"I believe that women should have certain rights, but need to be protected more than males, as women are more often the target for crimes like rape due to certain physical disadvantages. I believe that it would be wise to have a male accompany a woman out in public, although a weapon like a concealed firearm could act as a nice alternative."

So because someone might want to harm a woman, she should be forced to either carry a weapon - something she might not be comfortable doing - or have to be accompanied by someone else? Surely you're aware of how absolutely inconvenient it would be to have to have someone else who could go out with you at all times. There would be times when a woman would be forced to stay home because she didn't have someone to go somewhere with her. That's absolutely ridiculous and a poor way to deal with handling crime. We should be cracking down on the criminals, not the victims - or potential victims.

"Also, why travel alone?"

Because sometimes you pretty much have to. My sister travels alone on a regular basis to attend classes in college. If she had to be accompanied by another person, I don't think she'd be able to finish her education. There's just no one who can spend their time following her around. That would be absurd.

"It's also not very nice for married people, which can provoke jealousy, though not as bad as porn. Which really should not be legal. It's cause enough problems."

There are plenty of couples who are fine with their spouse looking at porn. There are couples who watch porn together. There are couples in open relationships. How does porn hurt them? And what would making porn illegal do, other than create a country full of criminals? Unless it's illegal in every country, it will always be on the internet. And it's not that easy to regulate what people watch on the internet. Sometimes there are better solutions than just making something illegal.

"We have more problems here than they do there on account of their dress code."

What problems are those, exactly? If it's everything that you've been talking about, then I couldn't disagree more. I think we have it way better.
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Sword legion: 

First and foremost, I am going to get at least
this out of the way.

"There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them."

"What are those reasons?"

I'll take the liberty of solving the simple and, as quoted, "obvious" point that soxfan849 has made here.

Children are children. As free to be who they are as they are, certain precautions and rules must be implemented on them due to the very simple fact that they are not fully-developed, both physically and mentally. This is why we call them children, and not adults.

Women are fully-grown human beings who are capable of making their own decisions and acknowledging what the safe thing to do is. This is why we call them adults, and not children.

Did you actually need an explanation for that?

I won't dive too deep into the subject of pornography, which you obviously harbor strong hatred for, but I will say this - as already mentioned by soxfan, it really isn't all that big of a deal. Now, BEFORE YOUR QUOTATION OF WHAT I SAID ENDS AT THE PERIOD OF THE LAST SENTENCE, hear me out. Like he said, some couples are OK with their partners viewing porn, and some couples even watch porn together. Why? Probably because they enjoy it! Does watching porn violate the rights of anybody? No, it does not. Sure, it does make people, women especially, seem like sexual playthings, but if people watch it secretly (a "guilty pleasure", if you may) simply because it lightens their mood, what is the immorality of it? If they do not really take it seriously and acknowledge the fact that women are people, too, then what is wrong with them simply using it as a pastime? It all depends on how people interpret it. If they're smart they'll realize that porn, as "fun" to watch to them as it is, is not like real life (this is why they are watching porn in the first place). If they're dumb and think that women really are just sexual playthings, then it's their own misfortune. As long as the light-hearted viewing and discussion of porn remains "in-home only", then it will not violate the rights of anybody. Hence, there is nothing wrong with people who want to watch it watching it without disrespecting women in real life because of it. Some people just have high sex drives. Some people just have sweet teeth. Cravings for chocolate and things like that. Can they help it? It all depends on how well they are able to control themselves. As long as the outcome does not deprive anyone of their rights, they may do whatever they want to themselves to their hearts' content. Sadly, porn is not as "hushed down" as it should be, and media does take it too far these days, making some women in real life upset or whatever. Strong women like me, however, which there are probably more of than you think, aren't ruffled by it that much. I've learned to accept that it's their problem if they're narrow-minded. It's their loss.

As for everything you have said on traveling and just moving around in general, I find that you stress on one point way too much when you, along with a lot of society these days, should be focusing on something way more important.

Women do not need to be restricted in their daily activities simply because it's some men's fault that they cannot 'control themselves'. Why do they need to pay for a flaw that some of them have? 

Instead, we should be focusing on a much more important issue. Some men need to be taught to 'control themselves'. It's their problem, and women should not have to carve their lives out to deal with it.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make here?

Also, as sop281 said, we all started out naked in the beginning. Why is the naked human body such a fascination and wonder to people these days? It's just who we are! I don't see what is so wrong about it! 

Did you know that I would actually support the movements being made for people to walk around naked freely? You don't know how much I wish for that day to arrive! The days when everyone just grows up, realizes that sex isn't everything, and treats each other normally. 

Why are we viewed as "invitations" for wearing light clothing? Are we holding up a sign that says "Free Sex" or something? No, we're not. Some people do. They're called prostitutes. Not everyone is like that. This just brings us back to the topic of "assuming" being wrong. Wearing light clothing just feels better!

It really does! Neither men nor women need to be oppressed from wearing "revealing" clothing because other people can't "control themselves". There is a difference between being forbidden from stabbing someone on the street and being forbidden from wearing light clothing that makes you feel more comfortable. It isn't a crime! It isn't violating anyone's rights, and our bodies are, in fact, more natural than our clothes! It's funny how wearing concealing clothing is described as "conservative" when, in reality, we were all naked in the beginning. It astounds me.

Women who show some skin shouldn't be immediately thought of as "s***ty". Some of them are; there's no denying it, but you can't assume. Chances are, they're just really confident women who are brimming with self-esteem in a society that does not welcome them. I respect them.

Sword legion: 

First and foremost, I am going to get at least
this out of the way.

"There are obvious reasons why children need adults to protect them and make certain decisions for them. The same could not be said for women needing men to protect them."

"What are those reasons?"

I'll take the liberty of solving the simple and, as quoted, "obvious" point that soxfan849 has made here.

Children are children. As free to be who they are as they are, certain precautions and rules must be implemented on them due to the very simple fact that they are not fully-developed, both physically and mentally. This is why we call them children, and not adults.

Women are fully-grown human beings who are capable of making their own decisions and acknowledging what the safe thing to do is. This is why we call them adults, and not children.

Did you actually need an explanation for that?

I won't dive too deep into the subject of pornography, which you obviously harbor strong hatred for, but I will say this - as already mentioned by soxfan, it really isn't all that big of a deal. Now, BEFORE YOUR QUOTATION OF WHAT I SAID ENDS AT THE PERIOD OF THE LAST SENTENCE, hear me out. Like he said, some couples are OK with their partners viewing porn, and some couples even watch porn together. Why? Probably because they enjoy it! Does watching porn violate the rights of anybody? No, it does not. Sure, it does make people, women especially, seem like sexual playthings, but if people watch it secretly (a "guilty pleasure", if you may) simply because it lightens their mood, what is the immorality of it? If they do not really take it seriously and acknowledge the fact that women are people, too, then what is wrong with them simply using it as a pastime? It all depends on how people interpret it. If they're smart they'll realize that porn, as "fun" to watch to them as it is, is not like real life (this is why they are watching porn in the first place). If they're dumb and think that women really are just sexual playthings, then it's their own misfortune. As long as the light-hearted viewing and discussion of porn remains "in-home only", then it will not violate the rights of anybody. Hence, there is nothing wrong with people who want to watch it watching it without disrespecting women in real life because of it. Some people just have high sex drives. Some people just have sweet teeth. Cravings for chocolate and things like that. Can they help it? It all depends on how well they are able to control themselves. As long as the outcome does not deprive anyone of their rights, they may do whatever they want to themselves to their hearts' content. Sadly, porn is not as "hushed down" as it should be, and media does take it too far these days, making some women in real life upset or whatever. Strong women like me, however, which there are probably more of than you think, aren't ruffled by it that much. I've learned to accept that it's their problem if they're narrow-minded. It's their loss.

As for everything you have said on traveling and just moving around in general, I find that you stress on one point way too much when you, along with a lot of society these days, should be focusing on something way more important.

Women do not need to be restricted in their daily activities simply because it's some men's fault that they cannot 'control themselves'. Why do they need to pay for a flaw that some of them have? 

Instead, we should be focusing on a much more important issue. Some men need to be taught to 'control themselves'. It's their problem, and women should not have to carve their lives out to deal with it.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make here?

Also, as sop281 said, we all started out naked in the beginning. Why is the naked human body such a fascination and wonder to people these days? It's just who we are! I don't see what is so wrong about it! 

Did you know that I would actually support the movements being made for people to walk around naked freely? You don't know how much I wish for that day to arrive! The days when everyone just grows up, realizes that sex isn't everything, and treats each other normally. 

Why are we viewed as "invitations" for wearing light clothing? Are we holding up a sign that says "Free Sex" or something? No, we're not. Some people do. They're called prostitutes. Not everyone is like that. This just brings us back to the topic of "assuming" being wrong. Wearing light clothing just feels better!

It really does! Neither men nor women need to be oppressed from wearing "revealing" clothing because other people can't "control themselves". There is a difference between being forbidden from stabbing someone on the street and being forbidden from wearing light clothing that makes you feel more comfortable. It isn't a crime! It isn't violating anyone's rights, and our bodies are, in fact, more natural than our clothes! It's funny how wearing concealing clothing is described as "conservative" when, in reality, we were all naked in the beginning. It astounds me.

Women who show some skin shouldn't be immediately thought of as "s***ty". Some of them are; there's no denying it, but you can't assume. Chances are, they're just really confident women who are brimming with self-esteem in a society that does not welcome them. I respect them.

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