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I mean, yeah, OBVIOUSLY a game has to be BALANCED.

But seriously.

the games I want to play the most are the ones who say IN MY FACE.

HEY! YOU THINK YOU CAN BEAT ME? HA! GIVER IT A TRY!!.

Example?

I love older games.

and one of my favorite Zelda games is Zelda II.


Why?

Other than the sword combat was very fast paced- but here's the thing.

The game wasn't just about watching the enemies blow up as you launched an infinite number of homing missals at them.

It was about every battle being a struggle, and every single living thing in that field being out to kill you!

You know what that does?

It gets your adrenaline pumping.

And THAT.

Is why I like video games.

I wish more would deliver an experience like that.

Agree?

Eh.... I can see your point but at the same time...
Artificial Difficulty. I see it SO often that it sickens me. No, you making enemies pop up RIGHT in front of me isn't fair. It doesn't get me excited or anything. It just makes me frustrated because it's nothing to do with skill.
But also, difficulty isn't why I play games. If it gets too difficult, I'm not going to waste time on it. I don't play games for a challenge. I play them for fun. If I don't have fun, what's the point?
If I can get a good story, and some nice gameplay, without too much difficult, I'm happy. I'm all for making the game not too easy, but I just don't play games for difficulty.
Ever.

Gamin'Gal :

Oh course.

But I liked how G.U.N. hunters always tried to land right in front of me in Sonic Adventure 2. . .

Well, okay, you could actually avoid those guys though.


I would agree with everything that you said.

I'm just trying to rebalance the focus in the direction of difficulty. Since so many games forget that nowadays.

Oh it's definitely all about balance. You make it so easy, then it's probably going to be boring and tedious to go through.
The thing is, they're catering to a much younger audience. They're often the ones with the most time and money, so they make it easy enough for them to get through.
I'd say the closest you get it difficulty settings (Though if you actually had a good learning curve you wouldn't need those, but oh well)

I have to disagree. I don't like "Hard" games. Now if you mean games that challenge my skill, then yeah I enjoy a challenge, but I don't enjoy frustrating difficulty or games stacking things insanely against you, like Contra and Gradius for example.

I also don't like a game that's hard just for the sake of being hard. If the gameplay and story are good, and the difficulty is believable, I like it. I've noticed an increasing interest in punishingly difficult games lately (mostly with browser based indie games), but I just don't go for it. I like a game that is reasonably difficult; Not super easy, but not so hard that it takes a thirty tries to clear a single level. And why do I need to face five or more enemies every few steps? I only like games like that if they're arcade and allow infinite continues like Strikers 1945 and Metal Slug. They're hard (and unfairly so), but the continues make up tor that.

I don't mind losing if it's fair though. For example, if they bumped up the difficulty of Darknut fights in Zelda games until it was actually a real challenge to beat one, I wouldn't mind fighting a thousand of them...just one at a time though. And please, no cheap shot attacks. There's a huge difference between being difficult and cheating the player. Invisible pitfalls? No. Ten enemies with projectile weapons, uncanny accuracy, and a one hit kill setup? No. An enemy with equal skills to the player, and great AI? Yes.

Basically, I like real difficulty when it isn't forced on me at stupidly high levels, and I hate all fake difficulty like spikes that shoot up through the floor without warning. I shouldn't have had to have played the level before and died in order to survive it.

If it's fair, a challenge is good. And I think every game should have a difficulty select so everyone can play, and more skilled players can still be challenged.

Well this is my opinion.

I like games that are so hard that they actually crack your bones, I do love them....I play games just for the sake of difficulty.....however games that are filled with cheap tricks at every corner is definitely NOT what I want.

I don't mind a few of them, but when they cover up almost everything in the game, I feel like the designers were completely lazy about the difficulty. (for example Dark Souls 2, the definition of difficulty on that game is itself misunderstood, enemies with short knives that has a reach of 10 feet away, bosses that truly meaningless because one hit can take away like half of your health while they require 100 hits to die.....I don't understand this part....why do I have a life bar if it just deplete in about two hits regardless of how much health I got unless I focus on only maximizing my health? why don't I just have 2 hearts which determines how many hits I can take before I die?.....)

When it comes to fighting games like street fighters, I don't feel being cheated because I suck at them in the first place XD

Anyway, this part may be weird cuz even I don't understand it, when I play castlevania game or ghost n' goblins I feel like I'm playing wrong more than being cheated....I just feel that the designers wants to make these short 6 levels memorable (you could say tormenting instead) and don't just wanna make a game that as easy as mario...., or maybe because they are platformers games...

Play Devil May Cry, those games are in your face. And yes I agree It has been a long time since I have played a truly hard game that made me tear my hair out, the last one was probably Ninja Gaiden, I got to the last level and I just couldn't do it haha. The reward and feeling of accomplishment is rare in video games today, lets hope future game will do so! ( If anyone knows of some I would greatly appreciate you suggesting some. )

I like a hard game once in a while but not too many times. For example, I really like Yoshi's Island but that game is so difficult that I got angry at it many times. Still, I found it to be an awesome game and I completed the story line (and some of the extra and secret levels).

Now I'm playing Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. This game on the other side isn't very hard. But it has an awesome story, funny characters, interesting plot twists and all other things which distract me from that. 

So sometimes I need a game that gives me a whole new challenge, but just in a way that I can keep improving. Sometimes I need easy but great games to keep me entertained. I need to switch between the topics.

Nah, I prefer soft games. 

Gamin'Gal : I agree with the story line needing to be good, and game play is one of the most important elements in a video game. But some games are fun to have difficulty on, for example, Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 3

I can see your point, games do need to have some form of difficulty, or else things get boring.
Some games also work better with high difficulty than others. Fighting game with poor difficulty? No way. That's when they need a higher difficulty, or else you get something like Smash Bros. where it's only really fun for a long time with friends.

I agree somewhat I love a game that can keep me on my toes in a fight for survival, especially bullet-hell shooters such as Ikaruga and Jamestown. I enjoy Super Meat Boy in spurts, but it's difficulty is so insane that I know I probably would never master it in this lifetime. That's where more casual games come in. They give me a well-deserved break from the tougher stuff, while still providing a bit of fun. Paper Mario, for example, is one of my favorite games of all time. It is barely difficult at all, yet it is charming, funny, and full of collectibles. I love games that get me to "feel the rush", but when things get too frustrating and I feel like tearing my hear out, I like something I can turn to that's fun. Also, games don't have to be difficult to "beat" to be challenging. My favorite game, Super Mario Galaxy 2, is somewhat hard, but not too hard to crack with persistence. The bulk of the fun is had by trying to beat your best times and finding all the secrets. Plus it just feels "right". That feeling when your character does exactly what you want it to do and the feeling of discovery as you test your character's limits is powerful.

There's a thin line between a game being extremely easy or annoyingly hard.

If a game is too hard, like to a point to being completely unfair, or having an insane learning curve, that's not really fun to me. It's frustrating.

If a game is too easy, you don't feel any accomplishment for finishing a level or whatever. That is kind of boring.

A game is at a good difficulty if the game gets progressively harder, and makes you feel like it's your fault that you failed, not the design. And of course makes you feel accomplished after you did something difficult.

I agree completely. I love difficult games. Probably because I grew up in the prime of NES and SNES. Once games started to move to 360 degrees of movement, they started getting easier. I blame it on the overuse of 'checkpoints' and autosaves every few minutes. There was really no longer a punishment for dying. In retro games, you had to start the level over. You didn't get as many tries as you want. If you lose too many times, game over means game over. Start over. If you don't like it, stop losing.
When you grow up with that, you find no real challenge to most modern games. Sure, the stories can be great. The gameplay can be really fun. It is a unique experience. But the lack of challenge leaves an unsatisfied feeling. I actually really like that modern games are trying to draw back their older crowd by making cray challenging games. Darksouls, for example, I really loved.

One thing I found kind of funny is when I read the comment that the difficulty should be believable. With that way of thinking, insanely difficult games with the odds stacked against you should be a good thing. Contra for example. The hero isn't superhuman. They are mortal men. They get shot, they die. So isn't it more believable that taking on an entire army would be hair pulling difficult? If you are a swordsman with no superhuman ability, isn't it believable to make the swordsman just as mortal and vulnerable as their enemies. In those worlds, you don't have some superhuman advantage over your enemies. The only thing that separates you from them is skill. That is exactly what believable difficulty is, in my opinion.

Eirinn :

I would agree that a game should be hard but not unfair, as in there would be no way to see it comeing, but that is what traps are supposed to do all the same. . .

rcarter2 :

yes, yes, yes.


I grew up with those games, and more modern ones for the N64, but I always preferred Mario bros 3 over Super Mario 64, even though I couldn't get past level 3.

In fact I was playing The Clone Wars for the Gamecube at my grandparents, and I really enjoyed it because of how hard it was on Master Difficulty.

1 stop three armored Separatist convoys from reaching the drop point with only 2 allied TX 130 saber class fighter tanks.


The game let you do squad commands and you had to manage your allies very carefully if you wanted them to survive, as you would be taking on 7 Separatist tanks in each convoy. Each convoy also had 3 Armored transport vehicles- they couldn't attack, but man they could take a beating.

The farthest I got was destroying two convoys, and that was after severl tries.

The resault?

I can't stop thinking about the awesome feeling of being under attack and actually LOSING because the resistance was strong enough.


It didn't feel like I was toying around in a virtual world just wasting time watching enemies react and blow up under my attacks.

I had a mission, and it was hard.


Of course, the allies were fun though, and the strategic element that they added was great, very much adding to the effect of settings that I already find.

Check points are best used in games that have lives in them, though I can understand a few in games lacking a life count, if certain sections are super hard, and I have seen games that are basically one big level with checkpoints every so often- I think it was called, "I wanna be the guy"

VVVVVV is another one I think.

Games that challenge me, I remember for the excitement.

Games that I beat first try, I tend to forget, cause there was nothing exciting about them, though I agree, there are games with good story/graphic out there.

Perhaps a movie would be a better idea for those though.

saldek :

I agree with you on the whole boss thing.

I think that bosses are better if they take a more reasonable amount of hits for their size, and are difficult by mean of AI.

Like Dark Link from Zelda II, or the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time.

I find games that let you take about 3 hits are the best, cause every hit is so precious.

Mount and Blade Warband is that way, until you get some good armor, then you can take about 7 BAD hits.

A javelin in the head with one of the best helmets in the game protecting you will still cause you to lose 72% of your health, if thrown by the right guy.

Not sure how well I was hit that time though.

But I love how ruthless the game is with damage amounts and AI- The enemies don't actually horde around you and wait for you to kill them in this game.

I think in normal clothes, a good hit takes out 64% of your health, and I LIKE that.


armor and does not make you win, only skill will, hence, I don't feel like enemies are just killed cause I'm an overpowered guy.

They die, cause I'm good. And the items that you can get in the game DO help,

But in the end, you're only about 3 x as powerful as you were at the beginning of the game.

And your not just going to charge a horde of WELL EQUIPPED enemies and trample them.

I still love that game. Even more than some adventure games.

I actually really enjoy playing tough games, or what I call "tough as hell"

I think even the ones that are somewhat broken gives you a challenge at trying to beat them. Then you have games like Ghosts N Goblins, which is not really fair, but is beatable, and really an enjoyable game.

I also enjoy games that offer me a challenge.
Challenging, and just generally being obtuse are two different things though.
One of the perfect examples of difficult done right though
really is Dark Souls.
The reason for that is that in dark souls you have a game that is completely unforgiving
A game that will kill you left and right
But once you know what you are doing
It's a breeze.
I've heard from some people that the second half of that game was dumbed down and made not as hard as the first half
It was just as hard, you're just better at the game now. Everyone has a different point where it gets a lot easier
but there is always a point
You fid the same thing with platformers like Mario
That's a game that is difficult because it requires a skill mastery
not just because it heaps so much on you it comes down to luck whether or not you survive

Like probably everyone in this forum, a game with a challenge is always fun.  The final fantasys are good because with the monsters they give you a challenge but some games I hate because to make it hard they just leave you not knowing where to go next which is one of the major reasons i quit alot of games. Also im currently playing Parasite Eve for ps1 and that game is good and challenging because the monsters deal massive damage and its up to you to learn the monsters attacks and use strategies like running in a circle to stay behind the monster and closing in for critical damage which is how you can get the advantage. Not only that but if you are careless with your medicine that can be the difference of life and death but its a very good game lots of events / good plot that keeps you hooked ! 

I like difficult games but not too difficult.

I like role playing games with good story and a little challenge in it because if it's too easy I think it might get boring.

Sometimes easy games are also good and fun to play though.

I don't really like games that are too difficult. I do like a good challenge, but I don't want to be put into a game where there's a chance that I might die over and over in the same spot. A really long time ago, I had a bad experience with final fantasy and I stopped playing it for 10 years, I just don't like the stress.