play4fun :

very well then.

I'll debate you then whenever you're ready, I'll just need someone to bump it every once in a while once it gets started.

If people wonder why I don't debate anymore. . . .it's because of the no sandwich posting rule. I could go at it for months if only I could keep posting. Now, when I debate a mod (not saying any specific names) they would always have the last word and pull something out with their last post and throw everything off. :/

Sword legion : I made additions/edits to my previous post.

Something that you have to consider is that certain methods/arguments that you use won't hold by themselves in an actual debate. I'm going to speak for myself on some of the observations that I've seen in some of your debates in this forum is that you have been consistently elevating your thoughts/ideas rather than focusing on what the Bible says. When you do theology, you don't always go by what makes the most sense in your mind, because Man's mind is fallible, but what is logically displayed in scripture to us. It is a blessing that we can still use logic to be able to understand what God reveals to us in scripture and that we can make sense on what God sees. It's the same way with science that, even though we are very limited in understanding everything in the universe, God has given us thinking abilities to be able to discover them, and not staying in our own understanding/common sense. That type of mentality should be the same with theology. If there are apparent conflicting verses, you check both contexts of the verses to see if there is more information given to us. If there is not hint of something, we cannot accurately assuming that it's there.

play4fun :

okay, but one more bit about how the Bible was translated.

We have found different versions of the New testament in Israel and surrounding lands. . . sometimes contradicting one another. 

Either it was purposeful, or by a mistake, but not all new testaments down there are in sync.

Also, king james Bible was translated in a way that sways certain verses, mostly the New testament. You can compare the greek translation of the Bible, German, English and others. Some verses are completely missing, or even say different things.

I will be learning Hebrew. . . . sooner or later. . . but I don't know.

Honestly, I don't trust anyone save rabbi Lapin. I would like to see the original words in context myself, with their original languages.

I will not follow something that doesn't make sense, to do so would go against the only reliable part of my body that I have. Are there things that cannot be explained in the Bible? As of now, I don't think so. But if this is the truth, then it should make sense. Maybe God has shown us enough truth for us to trust Him in the areas that we don't understand. That may work as a logical way to overcome the lack of logic in one area.

And there was the dark book of prophecy. . . whose prophecies were always right. . . . and there was a false book of prophesy made by the mortal man, to counteract the dark book.

That game ended very well actually.

All I really care for is the Torah, and then the Tanakh. The rest. . . is subjective.

thenumberone :

Oh barf!

Being able to cheat is not a failing in the design. Cheating wasn't part of the design! You can't blame the ability to cheat on the creator of the game.

And being white or black or american or scotish is morally neutral. Not doing good is evil. If I'm a judge and let a guilty man go, I've done evil because I've not done good. Old-school Christian teachers have used the phrase "sin of commission" for doing an act such as stealing and "sin of omission" for failing to act when you should have.

That's a bad definition of "opinion". If I believe in the phlogiston theory of combustion, it's not "my opinion", it's wrong. The facts I present are false. So, if I believe that God is, literally, goodness, it's true or false. If I like steak, that's an opinion. It's based on me, the subject, and nothing but steak matters outside of it. Even if my taste buds make it taste bad in my mouth, it's my opinion that I like it. If I say, "this tastes good to me", it's false. Theoretically, my taste senors can be analyzed to show that it tastes bad in my mouth.

Finally, I don't care if someone hasn't learned morality yet, regardless of age. It's wrong regardless and age is inconsequential. It does have merit when it comes to punishment, but it doesn't make something "ok".

Txgangsta :
A glitch in a game is a fault of the designer. that's how it is.
If a game is released with many bugs, you don't say, well, it wasn't your fault. You say they were not careful enough in their work. I want it fixed or I want compensation. THAT is a fact.

Ok this evil good thing is repeating here, lets take the first result for me looking up evil as a definition:

profoundly immoral and wicked.
"his evil deeds"
synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, morally wrong, wrongful, immoral, sinful, ungodly, unholy, foul, vile, base, ignoble, dishonourable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, degenerate, villainous, nefarious, sinister, vicious, malicious, malevolent, demonic, devilish, diabolic, diabolical, fiendish, dark, black-hearted;
monstrous, shocking, despicable, atrocious, heinous, odious, contemptible, horrible, execrable;
informallow-down, stinking, dirty, shady, warped, bent, crooked;
archaicdastardly, black;
rareegregious, flagitious, peccable
"an evil deed"

Where does that suggest doing nothing is the same as being evil? Evil is not the lack of good.
Iv never had anyone else suggest otherwise either.
"Old-school Christian teachers have used the phrase "sin of commission" for doing an act such as stealing and "sin of omission" for failing to act when you should have."
They are christians, not designers of the English Language. And evil is not what you say it is. Its not a matter of faith, or creation, its a matter of fact. And the fact is in the English language, evil does not fit all the tags you apply to it. Right or wrong that's the fact.

Something that is fact cannot be inccorrect. Things can be accepted as fact, but when it becomes apaprent it was wrong, it is realised it never was a fact.

Fact:
"A thing that is known or proved to be true."
It is not known to be true that god is good, anymore than its known he is real, or its known that I can fly. Thats not a fact.

"Finally, I don't care if someone hasn't learned morality yet, regardless of age. It's wrong regardless and age is inconsequential. It does have merit when it comes to punishment, but it doesn't make something "ok"."
Its in no way just, making god unjust.

thenumberone :

If I'm playing Skyrim (which has bugs galore) and I start glitching my game with console commands, it's not the developer's fault that he allows me to use console commands. If I'm playing Skyrim and every time I run the game freezes, it is the developer's fault. If regular game play has no bugs, and I go outside regular game play and screw up my game, that's my fault.

The given English definition does not blatantly agree with me and leaves the same open-end, but some of the synonyms help me figure out another way to articulate my point. The act is either ungodly or it's not, base or its not, ignoble or its not, depraved or its not. If your child was being beaten and you did nothing about it, I would say your inactivity is evil, and so would Child Protective Services when they take your kid away. You failed the do what is good, and that's evil. But I think we've pushed this to it's limits. If this doesn't convince you, we should probably just drop it.

God is known, proven, good, and therefore a fact. I guess this is where the theist and the atheist will necessarily divide.

Finally, acts aren't dependent upon age. If the 6 year old is bullying someone, they have done wrong just like the 40 year old bully. The 6 year old gets more excuse due to age, but the act was still wrong. If the 2 year old steals, the act was wrong and the 2 year old can't keep what he stole or parents need to pay for what he stole. The 2 year old doesn't need to go to jail, obviously, but the 2 year old did wrong.

SoL@R : No, God did NOT create evil, Adam and Eve had the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge. God gave us free will so we can control what we do. Some people choose to do evil, God doesn't force them to obey Him.

Txgangsta :
Using cheats is to bypass the conditions and designs of the game entirely.
Its not possible to do that in real life. That would be to defy gravity or stop time etc.
The base product, earth and all on it, is very much faulty. If i said I could build a game that was flawless and delivered a product riddled with probles, it would become apparent I was not as inteligent as was claimed.
Except the definition placed no emphasis on such a binary choice. You did. And that doesent make it so.
If a mother is incapable of stopping her child being beaten that doesent make her evil. that may make her weak, a coward, a bad parent, but not evil.
You are grossly simplifying things in an attempt to strengthen your argument. Would you really be able to carectorise each person in the world as good or evil?

"God is known, proven, good, and therefore a fact. I guess this is where the theist and the atheist will necessarily divide."
So long as you refrain from evidence then yes, it will divide, the burden of proof lays on the individual claiming to hold fact, you in this scenario.

"The 2 year old doesn't need to go to jail, obviously, but the 2 year old did wrong."
Firstly, unlike children, a baby has had absolutely no instruction in wright or wrong.
Secondly, they have no developed intelect, you cant blame a disabled (mentally) child for acting out, becuase they dont have the mental capacity to know better.
3rdly, they have done nothing wrong. Being born isnt a crime. Its not even a choice. The person being born doesent have a choice. They cant just refuse to vacate the uterus.

thenumberone :

Alright, I think our discussion has run it's course. I'll answer the two things and then leave it to other people.

"Would you really be able to [characterize] each person in the world as good or evil?"

Well, kinda. I'd say we're all evil. The really good people out there are only "good" in comparison with the rest of us. And you're right, that is over simplifying the whole situation. I do not mean that all people are wholly evil, nor do I mean that people should never have been created. I'll use this phrase to summarize: People are essentially good, but are substantially (the individual-ness) corrupted.

"3rdly, they have done nothing wrong."

Being born is not wrong. That's fine. Being mentally disabled is not wrong. And bringing this to a hot topic, being homosexual is not wrong. Only actions can be called "right" or "wrong". A baby does harmful things such as bite while breast feeding or crying for a parent just because. The actions done are excused due to ignorance. It does not mean the actions are "ok". When an adult does something harmful in ignorance, it is still often followed by an apology for this reason.

Who created god? Who created evil? Who created devil? I don't believe such a things so I just have to say it's the nature of living things that creates different feelings in the universe. Joy, hatred, love, evil, good, lust and so on.. Every living thing feels some of these things and it's just natural way of th nature so there isn't any certain source or mythical dude who watches over us and does nothing to make this cursed world better.. Creates humans to ruin the world? What a nice person he is so if I ever would believe in such things I would say that cloudy dude is the one who created all the evil and pain in this world.

Dantzku :

Why are "good" and "evil" emotions? I have no emotion whatsoever to a random guy in Canada. Is that little guy good? Sure.

Yes, god did create evil. This may sound weird based on the fact that god destroyed all evil with the great flood way back when, but it is my thoughts that if god didn't create evil, then who did? God created everything, even the devil. If god is all powerful, then what is the point of creating the devil? God needed something to balance out his/her/it's powers. God is all good, and the devil is all evil. If god wanted everything to be all nice, wouldn't he have created everything that way? He would have. The devil didn't come from no where , God saw how everything was all nice and perfect in the world, but it just wasn't right, so he created the devil. When the devil came, he turned the people of god evil, and at first god didn't know how to control this. But then he figured out how to prevent this evil, and so he did. But when he prevented it, there were still people on the earth who were indeed evil, and god just couldn't change them back to nice, so he summoned Noah, who he commanded to build the ark. Once the ark was done, god flooded the world to kill, destroy, all evil that was on the earth. The devil was not happy with this, so he/she/it confronted god. The devil is pure evil, so naturally god could not get rid of him. Each settled on a deal that all people and animals would be half good, half evil, and where their lives took them, good or evil, neither god nor the devil could alter the paths or completely change them. This is my story of what happened.

So yes, god did create evil, he created everything, so why not evil too?

Barathemos :

The other option is that evil is not an actual thing, but evil is the lack of good, much like cold is a lack of heat rather than a thing itself.

SoL@R : Here it is...GOD did not create evil. If he had, then HE would indeed be evil as well. HE did not create evil, but free will. As GOD, HE is entirely holy and pure, and cannot tolerate the slightest sin. He hates evil because it separates HIM from HIS creation and those HE loves. But it had to be this way...GOD created free will, knowing full well what each and every one of us would do with it. But here is the amazing thing about GOD. Though HE knew no sin and despised all evil, HE gave us free will because HE wanted us to love HIM. HE did not want an army of mindless minions that jump and cringe at his every word. Would that not make HIM nothing more than a dictator or tyrant? No HE wanted us to choose HIM. But how can HE be chosen if there are no other choices? HE gave us the choice. Do you want to love me and obey me? Or do you want your own way. Lucifer made his choice...and started the tide of evil. In the garden, we were given a choice. We chose wrong and brought evil into our world. In essence, we all create evil--except GOD. But GOD didn't leave us down here to burn in hell. HE gave us another chance and another choice. Here's the choice, if you love me, you will live with me forever. But if you do not love me, why on earth would I force you to live with me for all eternity? How do we love GOD? HE said that if we love HIM, we will obey HIM. JESUS said, "I and the FATHER are one. If you have seen me you have seen the FATHER. If you believe the SON you believe the FATHER. If you don't believe the SON, you do not believe the FATHER and you do not love HIM. It's not that you have to follow rules or belong to a certain group or you'll wind up in hell. There is only one thing that HE has longed for since HE created the universe. That we would love HIM just as HE loved us. You can't very well love someone you do not believe exists. GOD did not create evil. We chose outside of HIS will...that is where the evil is.