A pastor of a church I attend wrote a devotional book, "Everyday with Jesus," and here is an excerpt from that book which I like to reflect on according to your post:
http://harvest.org/devotional/archive/devotion/2014-05-06.html

Txgangsta : None are left hanging by God. If I choose to accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior for my sins, then God CHOOSES to let me come into heaven. We have a choice to accept God's gift of salvation. 
And regarding the last post (first one after my last post) I can prove God's existence as much as Evolution. No one can see God, unless he chooses to reveal himself. Evolution can't be seen by anyone. No one saw the beginning, it is a belief. 
With the Matthew passage, remember the context. If I take someone's words outside of the original situation it can mean anything. If you only quote part, it doesn't mean anything. Check to see what was said, and read the entire chapter, and maybe even the chapter before.
rcarter2 : You are correct with the point of God lets us come in, only if we choose his salvation. 
ANYWAY, the original discussion wasn't about the existence of God, it was about advice... Please keep to the theme of the person.

Txgangsta : That seems to show bias and favoritism. Basically, if someone is not pre-chosen, they are then completely incapable of living their life in God's word. It is out of their hands. Yet, they go to Hell. Basically God creating people that are doomed to Hell without even given the capability of redemption, because they are incapable if they aren't chosen before they make their choice. Doesn't God love the people he creates? Isn't it a bit contradictory to say "I love you, but I don't choose you, so you won't even be capable to redemption". In this case, God given free will seems to be taken out of the equation. I would say 'why bother trying', but that is pointless because if you stopped trying, it is because you weren't pre-chosen by God in the first place, so it really isn't your fault. But you will burn in Hell anyway.

rcarter2 :
darthyoda :  
Txgangsta :  

Ok....we are getting wayyy off topic on this thread (though, I am in agreement of Tx's position, scripturally under Romans 3:10-12, 8:29-30, and Ephesians 1:5). If you all want to talk about predestination in a more detailed fashion, please make a new thread.

psaetahn : Not only are you throwing in other topics that seem irrelevant for this thread, but you are also not respecting the space that is provided here. This is place where believers can discuss theological and ethical issues in Christianity, while provide believers and nonbelievers a place of reasonable discussion/debate on God and Christianity. From reading your posts, you have made a lot of fallacious arguments, most of it is just untrue or exaggerated/straw man claims that, in the end, your big argument just boiling it down to saying "I believe there is no God, so obviously it doesn't work." You made some comments that about prayer and actions on prayer that are just not true that Christians don't even do in the first place. That is telling me that you have a lack of understanding on the topic. Please do some research and argue the topic in reasonable logic.

Oh, and please be more respectful when talk about Christians. Generally clumping all Christians to be religious fanatics is wrong (which I don't deny there are such sects of fanaticism that strays from Biblical Christianity, but it is definitely not the majority) Doing so is both slanderous and misguided, which you should know better not to do if you do some research on the topic itself.


I'm going to let this conversation go on, but I won't be posting my thoughts till later and want to get this thread correctly modded first.

Research? Irrelevant arguments? 

How about you show me scientific evidence that praying actually works? Much better if you show me physical evidence that is undeniable beyond reasonable doubt that your God exist. If you succeed in doing so, then maybe I shall admit I was being disrespectful to anyone of you. As far as I am concerned, this is a thread. It is where we can post our opinions about the topic being presented. And yes, I actually did my own assignments before I even came to this thread. How about you do your research? Try to start your investigation about the Inquisition and then tell me what good did your God have ever done to this world. Good luck.

Um, hello there. I saw your thread and wasn't sure to put my input of my thoughts in. But I would like too. I too have been born with many conditions. Which is to long to list. And have been living for this for 23 years on. It is not easy, and you wonder why god doesn't heal you? I think in a way as someone said on here. To use us for testimonies and inspire other people to see that we can do things. Even with conditions. I feel in time it will heal but, not now as good wants use us in a way. To show people what we went through and how we are dealing with it now. I mean when I was young. I hardly went to school because of how seriously ill, I was. So I was living in the hospital for most of my childhood. We get meds to sustain our health so that we don't fall ill. You take medications right? I know how you feel.....I to wonder why this condition that I have is not taken away from me...So I thought even if I am an ill girl I will use the best of my abilities for my career on what I do. Helping people, inspiring them that they can do things, if they put their mind to it. My fav passage in the bible will have to be exodus why? Because of the story to do with Moses he led people. People believed in him. I feel that is the job with any person who is born disabled and with conditions as well. I hope you are living life good despite your condition. God has a plan for us, I believe in that. We just have to wait and see what his wonders will do, for us all. ^-^

And about respect, I believe respect is earned not gained. Have you Christians respected others who don't believe in your fairy tales when you tell them they are going to Hell if they don't accept Elvis Presley as their own personal Saviour? Have you respected your child's right to explore the world by threatening them with Hell at a very young age if they don't believe what you older guys believe? How about you open your mind instead of being offended? Your God hates knowledge because the price of going to Heaven is being stupid. I definitely know what the topic of this thread is all about. UNHEALED DISEASE - - if god is omniscient, then why he doesn´t heal me?
And I have given my advice in my previous post: STOP PRAYING AND SEEK A DOCTOR BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOD. My explanations followed. But a Christian sheep came up and gave his reply armed with your God's logical armor. So I defended my answer. So what's so wrong with that??

psaetahn : See? there you go again. You asking for scientific evidence that praying works already tells me that you don't understand prayer. Prayer is not a vending machine where you will get whatever you prayed for, nor is it talking to yourself like some self confidence methodology like what you described in a previous post. You talking about the Inquisition is already an irrelevant topic to the thread at hand. You can talk about it through a different thread, but it's not related to the question posed here. Notice that I also told the other members to move their discussion of predestination to a new thread as well.

Yes, this is a thread, but of a specific topic, not about God's existence or about what good God did in the world. This section of the forum is for those discussions, so you can make a thread about those topics as well, but as for this topic is concerned, you didn't really provide anything here that is rather enlightening or relevant to the table, just a bunch of invalid assertions and assumptions. If you really don't know what I'm referring to, I can list out what they are at a different time. All of those can be answered reasonably.

Disrespect a person has nothing to do with whether someone can prove the existence of something or not. What kind of logic is that? It is still wrong to disrespect them as a person. In the same way that it is wrong for me to say that all Islamists are terrorists, it is wrong for you to say that all Christians are fanatics.

You are just another classic example of how stupid Christians are. You're just eluding a subject which you see as a threat to your delusions. You're not even trying to open up your mind. Why should I argue with you anyway if your that kind of stupid? If you think prayer works then go ahead and enjoy talking to yourself. People like you are hopeless. How about you pray for me just like what you Christians always do while I think for you and show you how dead Holy Jewish zombie malfunctioned your brains. Try to read my posts and understand each word of it before you try to present yourself as the Good Guy when you can't even answer a simple question. If there is a God who listens to each and everyone's prayer. why not answer in the same way he did on your Holy scriptures? The same way He called Abraham to kill his own son. Internet connection problems maybe? Lol. 

psaetahn :
I agree that there is no basis for claiming prayer works, I see signs saying try praying and just shake my head at the futility of it.
Likewise I don't believe in god, nor do I condone the oh so common regimental brainwashing of youths which can be very damaging (people have died after their friends or pastors advised them just to pray, or stop taking medication).
And I agree you have every right to point out these things.
But personal attacks are across a line. I dislike greedy people who get so fat they cant walk. I'm not going to chastise them for their poor choice in life though, unless they start judging other peoples choices.
Its better to act towards people as individuals rather than as a group.
I don't tend to agree with most things playforfun says, nor do I like a lot of it, but like you he has the right to voice his opinion, and his last point was on the money.
"In the same way that it is wrong for me to say that all Islamists are terrorists, it is wrong for you to say that all Christians are fanatics."
I dont disagree with you stating prayer is pointless, I agree and it its relevant.
But their are other threads to talk about the legitimacy of god, heaven and hell etc. You should post your opinions in their. In a calm and logical manor.
"I believe respect is earned not gained."
True.
"Have you Christians respected others..."
If by Christians you mean the majority, then most of them never even voice much in the way of their opinions. In every belief only a minority are ever particularly vocal about it, they just want to get on their lifes. There are bad Christians, bad Muslims, and bad atheists. I know, iv met some in each group. Iv also met some in each group who are good. Religion doesn't make you good or bad. I dont even agree it provides you with good morals as many argue. I believe people themselves consciously act good or bad. That's more important than whatever title they apply to themselves.

psaetahn :

It is easy to "present "[ourselves] as the Good Guy" when you insult or demean constantly.

You also refuse to debate. Play4fun is ready to address the subject, but "you're just eluding a subject which you see as a threat to your delusions. You're not even trying to open up your mind." Perhaps you should quit jumping to conclusions and read. You'll find that every Christian that responded to the forum minus 1 (and he's wrong) has said to go see a doctor.

In essence, calm down. Address this with less hostility and people will treat your statements as worthwhile.

There are different ways for prayers to be heard. Some can get answered while some do not in a way. You have to be careful for what you do in life. My mother told me this prayers won't always work but, in way do. If you want something to happen, do it yourself. And that prayer that you prayed will come in.

psaetahn : I would like to answer to what you said about prayers. I wasn't meant to have lived to see this day. For the day I was born I almost died. Yes, the doctors may have saved me in a way. But, god helped them to do that, through a certain process. Thus I lived. I was put on medications to sustain my health. So in a way god does exist. You may be right about one thing, praying constantly without doing something will not help you. But, if you do it for yourself, the prayer will work for you. If this isn't the proof that you wanted to see or know. All can say is, I hope for you to be able to see soon for that god does exist.

Eniitan :
Not to be rude, but that doesn't actually prove prayer works.
I could pray to batman (a random example, don't look into it) and say that when the doctors healed me, their hand was guided by the dark hero.
The best I could say of prayer is it may have a placebo effect (meaning that since the person feels that they did something useful, they feel a little better).

thenumberone : While I agree that someone could use a physical healing from the doctors and say 'oh, this must be ______', I do think that God works miracles as well. Heck, I could name at least 3 instances in my life where I, or someone I know, should have died yet didn't. Like, it was literally medicinally impossible to survive, yet I/they did. In fact, I'll share one regarding the story of my birth with you via PM in a few. There is no scientific explanation, and I should have died.

psaetahn : I'll pm it to you as well. I'd appreciate it if you could respond without insulting me, or my beliefs. None of the Christians in this thread have insulted you, what you believe, nor have we even responded similarly to how you have attacked us without provocation. Please allow us that same calmness in speech. Think what you want, but a simple 'I don't believe what you believe, because I see no evidence for it' will get to us better than a 'you're so stupid for being christian I can't believe how dumb you are for believing in a dead zombie guy who you think will save you'. Seriously, which one would you actually listen to and not ignore? I, for one, generally choose to ignore the latter response because it shows a complete lack of honor and reveals that any attempt at a calm and logical conversation with you would be pointless. Don't attack me, I won't attack you, and we can both debate without annoying each other.

Now, to get back on topic... Definitely keep taking any meds that will help, because avoiding meds is just dumb. Honestly, if you're a Christian you believe that God created the ingredients of the meds you're taking. Therefore, God designed those to help you. Prayer is awesome, but meds help too lol.

I just wanted to put my input / opinion into this thread... I was made deaf at 3 months old, and as it has becoming increasingly apparent for the past few years, had severe mental illness for my entire life...
Why would God give me that? Why would God allow me to suffer so much heartbreak and confusion and sadness? Why would He let me suffer the trauma of hearing-to-deaf bullying, the mental, verbal, and psychological abuse from my parents, and my crazed and worsening mental illness through my preteen years to my late teens?
I mean, worst of all, why would God just stand there and watch me suffer so much and literally attack people, and even assault my family in the twisting darkness of mental illness?

My answer to all that? Because God knows it is what makes me, me. It is what equips me to support other struggling people, and it makes me a better person. That all happened to me so I could help other people going through the same thing. I'd even say it's possible to make it even so it wouldn't happen again, or at least lower the chances of it. But my whole point is people go through hardships because it makes us, us, and we are better because of that.

Edit: mrfe - Yes, miracles happens too. It happened to me. I should have died as a baby, but no, I came out deaf and nothing else. The side effect was supposed to be blindness, deafness, paralysis, death, etc etc etc.

Snowdeath : I am very much sorry to hear about that....and its true miracles do happen. I would like to get to know you more if I am aloud. Yes gramps is right. As well as thenumberone. He helped me to explain better of what I was trying to say. And for that I thank him, as I have difficulty explaining what I want to say....

To whom it may concern:

I tried to give my most humble advice whether or not praying helps medically. I firmly believe and recommend that it is best to seek a doctor when it comes in treating ailments or diseases, especially "unhealed diseases". I tried to explain my point of view and gave you facts why praying existed and became a habit to the common people in terms of approaching certain dilemmas. My explanations include prayer as useless because there is no one out there to pray to. Then a few minutes later came this response from someone who thinks I have an unreasonable logic which he thinks is purely based on my own assumptions. For me his reply to my post was a direct attack against me since nowhere on my reply did I see an opinion which cannot be proven by scientific methods but still he ordered me to do my research before I speak about the matter. How come did he find my post as unreasonable? Does that mean I am wrong because I don't believe in imaginary friends like you do and you Christians are always right because you have "God" on your side? Did he even make a research about the religion which He vigorously trying to defend? If he did then does that mean he already knew that Christianity is just a new version of ancient pagan religions? Why can't he even answer my question? Why can't he prove to me that God exist to justify his claims that I am wrong? I can't prove God doesn't exist, but I firmly believe that God is not someone who lives in Heaven watching us all the time while we are suffering the stings of everyday life. I believe that God is what we define it. There is no hostility in my words. It's just that the truth hurts. Perhaps you people who thinks I was hostile are not mature enough to accept FACTS so therefore accusing me of something which is not.

Debate. Religious debate. What for?

People who are devoted to the theory that God exist are the only people who wants a religious debate. Whatever the outcome of the debate will only ends up with the Christian telling the atheist: "I will pray for you." or "I hope someday you will realize there is a God". So what's the use? To satisfy your cravings of preaching? Forcing (converting in Christian terminology)  people who doesn't think the way that you do to become like you by threatening them with Hell or telling others to treat them with hatred because they are favored by the Devil? We don't need to prove our point. Look around you and see for yourselves. Is this a place where a loving God exists? If He does exists then why doesn't He even care about what's happening around us? Is this all part of His plan? What kind of a plan is that? Does He even have a plan at all?

If you really want a debate I suggest that you always answer the question which is given at hand. Like: "If there is a God who controls everything, then why did he gave us free will?" I should expect an answer that is pointing out directly to my question. Like:" Why? For the glory of Satan of course." or whatever you have in mind that would satisfy my question.

Open mind. I repeat. Open mind. A mind that is willing to accept new ideas.

And to close this, I would like to leave you a quote from your own very Bible which you love reading the most. (Yes, you love to read some parts of it. I wonder if you have even read it from cover to cover). This verse represents my acceptance to your challenge to a debate. I hope you will never forget this verse as for is this is a verbal identification of who God (or should I say the Devil) really is.


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
-Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

psaetahn :

Assume, for a moment, that there is an omnipotent being that we call "God". With this one assumption, you cannot say "prayer does nothing medically". Prayer is a conversation with God, and that being can medically heal you because he's "omnipotent". So, most religious in the world make a perfectly logical conclusion from the "omnipotent being" assumption. If you wish to challenge that assumption, that all fine and dandy, but with the assumption, medical healing is perfectly logical.

On that matter of the differences between the religious and you, I find lots of irony. First, you say "People who are devoted to the theory that God exist are the only people who wants a religious debate", then you say, "Open mind. I repeat. Open mind. A mind that is willing to accept new ideas".

Do you not understand how obviously contradictory that is? You first lump us all into one category, then you refuse to listen to any of us, then you tell us to have an open mind. You're mind is as closed as can be! You have a prejudice against the religious and your mind turns off.

Very well, you have become a self fulfilling prophesy. We cannot prove anything religious to you. You have made it impossible for any sort of religious truth to even be considered.

Txgangsta : ""Prayer is a conversation with God,"":

As far as I am concerned, I still don't know who the @#$% God, that is why I want to find out by asking, reading, testing and proving instead of I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A GOD BECAUSE I AM TOO STUPID TO FIND OUT WHY OR HOW. Don't you think it is more honest to say we don't know the truth to everything yet instead of concluding anything and everything based solely a book written by primitive shepherds of ancient times? Prayer is merely a wishful thinking whispered silently to your own self consciousness . Plainly speaking, it is just the same as talking to yourself.

""First, you say "People who are devoted to the theory that God exist are the only people who wants a religious debate", then you say, "Open mind. I repeat. Open mind. A mind that is willing to accept new ideas". "":

First of all, being an open minded person doesn't mean that I should still believe the possibility of a god; it means you are open to accept new ideas and changes. It means you must question everything until you can prove to yourself that it is truth. God is omnipotent is not a new idea. Man created God is a new idea. Accepting Jesus as a personal savior is not a new idea. Only you can save yourself is a new idea. Elvis Presley is God is a new idea. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a new idea. Believing prayer did something to the success of a medical procedure is not a new idea. Legalize marijuana and change the world is a new idea. Why should I believe them when I can seek the truth on my own? If I can why can't you? Can you see the difference and tell me which idea can make the world a better place? Why should I waste my time debating with you when I can spend my timing studying instead of praying?
You believe in God. Have you proven yourself the existence of God? Do you have physical evidence to show that it is God and not the doctor who give this little boy his new leg because God, who claims to be able to do anything but can't perform medical operations of adding an artificial leg to the amputated? How can you say your mind is open if you still believe in that book where snakes talk and seven headed dragons exist? Am I really in a position to open my mind because I don't believe in your religious myths? Is your mind open when you say it was God and not the doctor who save that amputated child? Where is God in the eyes of a child dying of hunger of World War II? Where is God during the September 11 attack? Where is your God now? Is there really a God?

""Do you not understand how obviously contradictory that is? You first lump us all into one category, then you refuse to listen to any of us, then you tell us to have an open mind. You're mind is as closed as can be! You have a prejudice against the religious and your mind turns off."":

I have more than prejudice against organized religions. Why should I listen to priests molesting children? Why should I listen to Muslims when they stone to death women who was raped by the very same Muslims who raped her? Why should I listen to a God who kills the innocent along with the wicked by sending in an earthquake or any other deadly natural disaster? Can you tell me what good have Muslims contributed to the world? Can you tell me what good did the Inquisition bring? Do you know how many people who are willing to kill or be killed in the name of God? How contradictory are my statements compared to your bible? Can you please explain at least this one bible contradiction so I can open my mind to your ideas? If God was still alive, miracles would still happen, prophets would live for five hundred years, Christian kings would rule each nation with an iron fist, only the most pious would achieve success by God's good graces, and all heretics would be sucked immediately into Hell! And yes, that is my assumption if there is a God as requested in your first statement. Good luck opening my mind.

psaetahn :

"As far as I am concerned, I still don't know who the @#$% (is that an actual word, because D, C, S, F, and the rest of the 4 lettered words really don't fit well) God, that is why I want to find out by asking, reading, testing and proving..."

Wonderful! So ask about our proofs for God, read them, and test them with your logical skills.

"Don't you think it is more honest to say we don't know the truth to everything yet instead of concluding anything and everything based solely a book written by primitive shepherds of ancient times?"

Yes. I completely agree.

" Prayer is merely a wishful thinking whispered silently to your own self consciousness ."

I defined prayer as "a conversation", not as "asking for stuff". If there is no God, then you are correct because there is no conversation. If there is a God, I may be correct, depending on if God is benevolent, maleficent, etc.

"First of all, being an open minded person doesn't mean that I should still believe the possibility of a god; it means you are open to accept new ideas and changes."

It means you are open to accept new ideas and changes too, assuming you do have an open mind.

"It means you must question everything until you can prove to yourself that it is truth."

Well, ok. But let's not get carried away into solipsism with this.

"God is omnipotent is not a new idea. Man created God is a new idea. Accepting Jesus as a personal savior is not a new idea. Only you can save yourself is a new idea. Elvis Presley is God is a new idea. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a new idea. Believing prayer did something to the success of a medical procedure is not a new idea. Legalize marijuana and change the world is a new idea."

This is the worst use of "new idea" that I have ever seen. "New idea" does not mean "recently thought". If it did, no one would believe anything that was thought 1000 years ago. Swords are sharp is not an new idea. I fall towards the earth is not a new idea. The world is round is not a new idea.

"Why should I believe them when I can seek the truth on my own?"

Because you don't have time to launch your own satellite and map whether or not the universe is expanding or contracting. You'll just have to believe someone that's observed the data, the data extraction, etc.

"Why should I waste my time debating with you when I can spend my timing studying instead of praying?"

Studying is often a form of prayer.

"You believe in God. Have you proven yourself the existence of God?"

Well of course! There's more logic to prove God's existence than to prove your existence.

"Do you have physical evidence to show that it is God and not the doctor who give this little boy his new leg because God, who claims to be able to do anything but can't perform medical operations of adding an artificial leg to the amputated?"

Of course not. God didn't put the artificial leg on the boy. A doctor did. You said so yourself. Duh. And there is never going to be direct physical evidence for a non-physical thing.

"How can you say your mind is open if you still believe in that book where snakes talk and seven headed dragons exist?"

Aesop's fables are pretty good too, and there's even more talking animals than that. Snakes do not talk and seven headed dragons do not exist. The bible does not make those claims, just like Aesop was not teaching that animals can talk.

"Am I really in a position to open my mind because I don't believe in your religious myths?"

I thought the point of "open-mindedness" was to consider belief in something one currently does not believe in? You have to open your mind first before you'll believe the religious myths.

"Is your mind open when you say it was God and not the doctor who save that amputated child? Where is God in the eyes of a child dying of hunger of World War II? Where is God during the September 11 attack? Where is your God now? Is there really a God?"

Of course my mind is open. You think the doctor should get sole credit? What about his teachers? What about the parents that decided to have a child? What about the doctor's friend who convinced him not to drink earlier that day? And where is my God? Right where he's always been, since the first hurricanes, wars, famines, etc. September 11 was nothing compared to Genghis Khan or the Roman Empire. God's job has never been to make you feel good, prevent danger, etc. He's not your magic genie.

"I have more than prejudice against organized religions."

As does my mother.

"Why should I listen to priests molesting children? Why should I listen to Muslims when they stone to death women who was raped by the very same Muslims who raped her?"

You shouldn't. But you've probably never met a pedophilic priest. You also shouldn't listen to Muslims who rape women and then stone them to death. But you've probably never met a homicidal, sexist Muslim. Instead, you look at people and immediately judge them. The KKK does that too.

"Why should I listen to a God who kills the innocent along with the wicked by sending in an earthquake or any other deadly natural disaster?"

You shouldn't. I certainly don't. I listen to a God who lets the very wicked die along with the kinda-wicked by the earthquake or any other deadly natural disaster that was going to happen regardless since the big bang.

"Can you tell me what good have Muslims contributed to the world?"

Well, many loved their children, gave to the poor, invented random technologies, etc.

"Can you tell me what good did the Inquisition bring?"

Oh, nothing. The King of Spain wanted a completely Romanist Iberian peninsula and killed lots of people. He was pretty much a jerk.

"Do you know how many people who are willing to kill or be killed in the name of God?"

Probably a bunch. I'd certainly be willing to kill a man in the name of God who was raping someone. I'd certainly be willing to be killed in the name of God if it would save people. Your problem, and mine too, are people who will simply say "God wills it" and commit what is obviously an atrocity.

How contradictory are my statements compared to your bible?"

Your statements are dramatically more contradictory than my bible, considering you contradict yourself a lot and the bible doesn't ever. I'm sure you can quote the KJV and attempt to pull some contradictions out, but there are none. Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Both God and pharaoh. Did the guards hear or not hear Jesus when on the Damascus road? They heard noise, but they did not hear what exactly was going on, as supported by the original Greek text. Go ahead and try me with some contradictions, I've got the common ones memorized.

"If God was still alive, miracles would still happen, prophets would live for five hundred years, Christian kings would rule each nation with an iron fist, only the most pious would achieve success by God's good graces, and all heretics would be sucked immediately into Hell! And yes, that is my assumption if there is a God as requested in your first statement."

Why would miracles, extreme longevity, Christian political power, good things to good people, or instant death to heretics all necessarily be along constantly? Maybe God thinks that those things are not beneficial?

"Good luck opening my mind."

I cannot open your mind. You have to open your mind. And I don't believe you will. You're prejudice. There is little difference between you and the homicidal Muslim you hate. The only reason I'm responding is for my personal enjoyment and that others may see your ridiculous prejudice.