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the role of relgion in government?
do u think relgion should have power in the government
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the role of relgion in government?

 

12-06-13 07:28 AM
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first off let me start off by saying i am not the most educated when it comes to forms of government or what religion has to do with said form of govrnment so what im asking here is do you think religion should have power in the government? how would a country change with the relgion getting to use there power to express there ideals. do you think the county would improve or just be better off as is. i really want to know what you think about this topic pleae comment!!!!
first off let me start off by saying i am not the most educated when it comes to forms of government or what religion has to do with said form of govrnment so what im asking here is do you think religion should have power in the government? how would a country change with the relgion getting to use there power to express there ideals. do you think the county would improve or just be better off as is. i really want to know what you think about this topic pleae comment!!!!
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12-09-13 02:51 AM
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a-sassy-black-lady :  What "religion" are you referring to?  The irony is, that if you are a Christian, you would know and believe that in a sense, "religion" already has power in ALL governments and that it is God (of the Bible) who has placed people in positions of authority.  That includes the president, your CEO or MD, your boss, your teacher etc.  We as humans won't always agree with the people in those posts and why God has placed certain people in certain positions.  All I know is that God has placed them there for His specific purpose which will be revealed soon enough.  As Romans 13:1 says - "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
a-sassy-black-lady :  What "religion" are you referring to?  The irony is, that if you are a Christian, you would know and believe that in a sense, "religion" already has power in ALL governments and that it is God (of the Bible) who has placed people in positions of authority.  That includes the president, your CEO or MD, your boss, your teacher etc.  We as humans won't always agree with the people in those posts and why God has placed certain people in certain positions.  All I know is that God has placed them there for His specific purpose which will be revealed soon enough.  As Romans 13:1 says - "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
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12-11-13 09:21 PM
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a-sassy-black-lady :

I do not support separation of church and state. However, I don't support theocracy either. What I like is a balance which I'll call "Interaction between church and state". The state can have all of the laws and restrictions it wants, but none of those mean your nation will obey them. The 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments gave rights to blacks, but the southern states still had Jim Crow laws in effect and forced segregation, voting restrictions, and the like. What religion can do and the religious should do is attempt to place goodness into the hearts of the people. The government, a separate institution, enforces that justice. If the government is unjust, religion should manipulate change. Currently, that is impossible.
a-sassy-black-lady :

I do not support separation of church and state. However, I don't support theocracy either. What I like is a balance which I'll call "Interaction between church and state". The state can have all of the laws and restrictions it wants, but none of those mean your nation will obey them. The 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments gave rights to blacks, but the southern states still had Jim Crow laws in effect and forced segregation, voting restrictions, and the like. What religion can do and the religious should do is attempt to place goodness into the hearts of the people. The government, a separate institution, enforces that justice. If the government is unjust, religion should manipulate change. Currently, that is impossible.
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03-14-14 09:50 PM
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Txgangsta : By all accounts, Jim Crow was unconstitutional at that point. The purpose of those Amendments was to bring (at the very least) all men onto equal legal standing, concerning abolition and voting in particular. They were to uphold the literal writing that "All men are created equal", and so they have. Any powers not given to the federal government are reserved to the states (10th), however, the states still can't legally make rules that directly contradict the Constitution, which is why the South was forced to abolish Crow.
I really liked your idea, though, of an "Interaction between church and state", and in many ways that's what America was set up to be. We were based on Christian principles while avoiding a "Christian government" per se, at least in the sense of Roman Catholicism. While Christianity is and has been the most dominant religion in our country, it never has been the official religion - and can you imagine the uproar if it were? I would appreciate the idea of going back to wholesome ideals, but this nation would be in ashes. Riots, wreckage, anarchy, and anti-Christian sentiment would be even higher, skyrocketing in fact, and America truly would destroy itself through a second Civil War. Only it wouldn't be North/South, but everyone against Christians. We would be no better than anywhere else in the world. We would throw away our freedoms, all of them, in trying to protect them.
Already, it's my experience that you can do, say, believe, think anything you want - you have those freedoms of the First Amendment - unless they are about God or Jesus. But it has always been that way and always will.
SoL@R : Is right, though; "in a sense, "religion" already has power in ALL governments and that it is God (of the Bible) who has placed people in positions of authority."

I guess I'll pull a Gump, and say that's all I have to say about that.
Txgangsta : By all accounts, Jim Crow was unconstitutional at that point. The purpose of those Amendments was to bring (at the very least) all men onto equal legal standing, concerning abolition and voting in particular. They were to uphold the literal writing that "All men are created equal", and so they have. Any powers not given to the federal government are reserved to the states (10th), however, the states still can't legally make rules that directly contradict the Constitution, which is why the South was forced to abolish Crow.
I really liked your idea, though, of an "Interaction between church and state", and in many ways that's what America was set up to be. We were based on Christian principles while avoiding a "Christian government" per se, at least in the sense of Roman Catholicism. While Christianity is and has been the most dominant religion in our country, it never has been the official religion - and can you imagine the uproar if it were? I would appreciate the idea of going back to wholesome ideals, but this nation would be in ashes. Riots, wreckage, anarchy, and anti-Christian sentiment would be even higher, skyrocketing in fact, and America truly would destroy itself through a second Civil War. Only it wouldn't be North/South, but everyone against Christians. We would be no better than anywhere else in the world. We would throw away our freedoms, all of them, in trying to protect them.
Already, it's my experience that you can do, say, believe, think anything you want - you have those freedoms of the First Amendment - unless they are about God or Jesus. But it has always been that way and always will.
SoL@R : Is right, though; "in a sense, "religion" already has power in ALL governments and that it is God (of the Bible) who has placed people in positions of authority."

I guess I'll pull a Gump, and say that's all I have to say about that.
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03-14-14 09:58 PM
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a-sassy-black-lady : religion in government i believe thats kinda happening everywere but heavy religion could end badly
a-sassy-black-lady : religion in government i believe thats kinda happening everywere but heavy religion could end badly
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03-14-14 10:42 PM
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No, not at all. Everytime religion has gotten mixed in with the government it's always ended badly, because people can't handle it properly. Look at the Spanish inquisition. And many other times we've seen governments force people to convert to a certain religion and even kill them if they refused. It's just a bad idea.

Religion is about faith. Government is about phsical, tangible things. They literally don't blend.
No, not at all. Everytime religion has gotten mixed in with the government it's always ended badly, because people can't handle it properly. Look at the Spanish inquisition. And many other times we've seen governments force people to convert to a certain religion and even kill them if they refused. It's just a bad idea.

Religion is about faith. Government is about phsical, tangible things. They literally don't blend.
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03-14-14 11:40 PM
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They should be separated. I believe the government should be secular as possible. This is just me speaking where the Lutheran church goes hand in hand with the government. It would be a relief to both if they would not be in bed together. For the sake of the church and for the sake of democracy too. If this would be the case, neither would have to depend on the other or be in debt to the other. I believe both could have more integrity on their own.
They should be separated. I believe the government should be secular as possible. This is just me speaking where the Lutheran church goes hand in hand with the government. It would be a relief to both if they would not be in bed together. For the sake of the church and for the sake of democracy too. If this would be the case, neither would have to depend on the other or be in debt to the other. I believe both could have more integrity on their own.
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03-14-14 11:47 PM
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Sure, if your government is officially a theocracy. But we are a democracy. We are a nation of many religions. Every citizen is SUPPOSED to have freedom of religion. That means you are not supposed to have the religion of people in government power forced upon you. Having the religion of those in power forced upon the citizens is exactly what our founding fathers fled from when they decided to settle elsewhere. A few hundred years later, we find our government turning into exactly the opposite of what our country was founded upon. It is turning into a nation in which one particular religious belief dictates the citizens of different religions. We are not a theocracy, but we definitely have a lot of the same concepts happening.

Just to simplify all that, religion involvement is great if you are part of a theocracy. If you want to live in a religiously run government, find a theocracy. But is should not dictate anything in government if you are going to claim to be a country in which everyone has freedom of religion as ours claims.
Sure, if your government is officially a theocracy. But we are a democracy. We are a nation of many religions. Every citizen is SUPPOSED to have freedom of religion. That means you are not supposed to have the religion of people in government power forced upon you. Having the religion of those in power forced upon the citizens is exactly what our founding fathers fled from when they decided to settle elsewhere. A few hundred years later, we find our government turning into exactly the opposite of what our country was founded upon. It is turning into a nation in which one particular religious belief dictates the citizens of different religions. We are not a theocracy, but we definitely have a lot of the same concepts happening.

Just to simplify all that, religion involvement is great if you are part of a theocracy. If you want to live in a religiously run government, find a theocracy. But is should not dictate anything in government if you are going to claim to be a country in which everyone has freedom of religion as ours claims.
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03-15-14 01:53 AM
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huygeb :

Jim Crow laws were unconstitutional, but that really didn't matter. It wasn't truly "separate but equal" either. The US population (southern in particular, but the north as well) didn't really see that much immorality in white superiority and black subservience. Some did, especially around 1855-1870, but that radical abolitionist movement quieted and people went back to complacency. Jim Crow laws stayed until civil rights movement of the 1960s and 1970s (although the 50s had some action too).

While I like your complement, I actually disagree with anything close to "America is a Christian nation". It was not founded by Christians and whatever Christian influence that may have been present were ancient versions and washed away by the pragmatism of Washington and Franklin or the deism of Jefferson or Adams. America was the first Republic and the first secular nation. All other modern nations before had prescribed to one faith.

Also, I would never think of Christianity as the official religion of the US, not for the catastrophic consequences, but more because that isn't really the place of a government. Interaction between church and state; not a complete separation and not a theocracy. I would like to see (and I know I never will) a system where the dominant religion(s) have lots of lobbying power, but nearly zero actual political power. And yes, I want to avoid the obvious pitfalls and not bring us back to the 1300s.

rcarter2 :

I hope the summon works....

In a government that elects representatives to be the political authorities, it would seem unnatural for the representative to become a robot for his/her constituents. Instead, we elect people to government, and people generally come with a religion. If we didn't want any sort of religious bias, we'd have to stop letting religious people be elected or vote.

And stop calling America a Democracy! We're not! It's a Republic. A democracy would have every citizen vote on everything, including the budget and obamacare and whathaveyou. Instead, congress does it for us. Technically, Canada is still a monarchy, but since the monarch can't really do much, we'll call that a Republic too.
huygeb :

Jim Crow laws were unconstitutional, but that really didn't matter. It wasn't truly "separate but equal" either. The US population (southern in particular, but the north as well) didn't really see that much immorality in white superiority and black subservience. Some did, especially around 1855-1870, but that radical abolitionist movement quieted and people went back to complacency. Jim Crow laws stayed until civil rights movement of the 1960s and 1970s (although the 50s had some action too).

While I like your complement, I actually disagree with anything close to "America is a Christian nation". It was not founded by Christians and whatever Christian influence that may have been present were ancient versions and washed away by the pragmatism of Washington and Franklin or the deism of Jefferson or Adams. America was the first Republic and the first secular nation. All other modern nations before had prescribed to one faith.

Also, I would never think of Christianity as the official religion of the US, not for the catastrophic consequences, but more because that isn't really the place of a government. Interaction between church and state; not a complete separation and not a theocracy. I would like to see (and I know I never will) a system where the dominant religion(s) have lots of lobbying power, but nearly zero actual political power. And yes, I want to avoid the obvious pitfalls and not bring us back to the 1300s.

rcarter2 :

I hope the summon works....

In a government that elects representatives to be the political authorities, it would seem unnatural for the representative to become a robot for his/her constituents. Instead, we elect people to government, and people generally come with a religion. If we didn't want any sort of religious bias, we'd have to stop letting religious people be elected or vote.

And stop calling America a Democracy! We're not! It's a Republic. A democracy would have every citizen vote on everything, including the budget and obamacare and whathaveyou. Instead, congress does it for us. Technically, Canada is still a monarchy, but since the monarch can't really do much, we'll call that a Republic too.
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Txgangsta : The definition between Republic and Democracy gets blurred in our country. Really, it is not just a Republic. If fits the definition of a Democratic Republic. Part of that reason is because the term democracy has been demeaned over the years. I understand that we more fit the term Republic than Democracy, but we still share traits of both. But also, because the term Democracy has been so generalized, I find it easier to just use the term instead of Republic. The average American would not be able to give a clear definition of what a Republic is, so using that doesn't benefit my point.

As for the part about if we want no religious bias, we have to stop electing religious people. The problem is that the majority religion of this country is Christianity. And as far as I have seen, Christianity in this country is also the most aggressive in terms of thinking it is their duty to force their way of life on everyone. What that majority fails to see is that they are selfishly going against what this country was founded upon just because they seem to think that if their religious rules aren't enforced on the whole country, it is war on them. The problem is not a matter of electing a person of religion into an office. The goal of electing someone should never be based on their religion. The problem I have is the elected Christian people can't separate their personal religious beliefs from the people they represent. They constantly ignore the fact that not everyone is Christian in this country, and completely shrug off those religions as if they are nothing.

But I do know that it all stems down to the fact that they get voted in. Fact of the matter is, it is probably always going to be like that as long as I am alive. It is just wrong to claim a nation of religious freedom when our elected officials pass laws based solely on what the Bible tells them, and not what makes every citizen an equal.
Txgangsta : The definition between Republic and Democracy gets blurred in our country. Really, it is not just a Republic. If fits the definition of a Democratic Republic. Part of that reason is because the term democracy has been demeaned over the years. I understand that we more fit the term Republic than Democracy, but we still share traits of both. But also, because the term Democracy has been so generalized, I find it easier to just use the term instead of Republic. The average American would not be able to give a clear definition of what a Republic is, so using that doesn't benefit my point.

As for the part about if we want no religious bias, we have to stop electing religious people. The problem is that the majority religion of this country is Christianity. And as far as I have seen, Christianity in this country is also the most aggressive in terms of thinking it is their duty to force their way of life on everyone. What that majority fails to see is that they are selfishly going against what this country was founded upon just because they seem to think that if their religious rules aren't enforced on the whole country, it is war on them. The problem is not a matter of electing a person of religion into an office. The goal of electing someone should never be based on their religion. The problem I have is the elected Christian people can't separate their personal religious beliefs from the people they represent. They constantly ignore the fact that not everyone is Christian in this country, and completely shrug off those religions as if they are nothing.

But I do know that it all stems down to the fact that they get voted in. Fact of the matter is, it is probably always going to be like that as long as I am alive. It is just wrong to claim a nation of religious freedom when our elected officials pass laws based solely on what the Bible tells them, and not what makes every citizen an equal.
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03-15-14 06:33 AM
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To keep it short, it seems as far as their civil rights, gun possession etc most Christians point to the constitution and tell us these rights are enshrined in the constitution.
To That end, all that matters is the constitution expressly removes the Church from matters of state.
Look at Europe 200 years ago.
Look at Africa or Asia now.
That is what happens when religion is allowed to interfere with the state.
What will you gain by the Church getting more power? You already pray. Your local priest/bishop/minister already gives you spiritual guidence.
What you really want in this case, is the government to make other people adhere to your rules.
What happened to disliking the government interfering too much?
To keep it short, it seems as far as their civil rights, gun possession etc most Christians point to the constitution and tell us these rights are enshrined in the constitution.
To That end, all that matters is the constitution expressly removes the Church from matters of state.
Look at Europe 200 years ago.
Look at Africa or Asia now.
That is what happens when religion is allowed to interfere with the state.
What will you gain by the Church getting more power? You already pray. Your local priest/bishop/minister already gives you spiritual guidence.
What you really want in this case, is the government to make other people adhere to your rules.
What happened to disliking the government interfering too much?
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03-15-14 10:16 AM
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thenumberone : The thing is, I don't think anyone here is actually advocating for a church-run state. It would and does and always has interfered with the freedom to practice or not practice anything. But either way people are scoffed and persecuted. Who is anybody to tell someone else they are not allowed to pray because they see it as offensive? It is that kind of thing that says Christians are the most tolerant group. Yes, there are quacks and I won't name here, but generally speaking (at least those I associate with) would never want someone not to pray.
thenumberone : The thing is, I don't think anyone here is actually advocating for a church-run state. It would and does and always has interfered with the freedom to practice or not practice anything. But either way people are scoffed and persecuted. Who is anybody to tell someone else they are not allowed to pray because they see it as offensive? It is that kind of thing that says Christians are the most tolerant group. Yes, there are quacks and I won't name here, but generally speaking (at least those I associate with) would never want someone not to pray.
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huygeb :
I never said anyone here had said that, im just summarising the views of people who do think the church should run the state.

Who is telling people not to pray?
As for the most tolerant group, that's debatable yet, not really relevant to including religion in government or not.
huygeb :
I never said anyone here had said that, im just summarising the views of people who do think the church should run the state.

Who is telling people not to pray?
As for the most tolerant group, that's debatable yet, not really relevant to including religion in government or not.
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I do not think that religion should be integrated in the government, as seeing how China is with their religions, they don't let anyone worship outside of State Churches or any other house of worship for other religions. That is why in the US Constitution we have the Freedom of Religion and no one can tell us what religion we need to be a part of or where we can worship.
I do not think that religion should be integrated in the government, as seeing how China is with their religions, they don't let anyone worship outside of State Churches or any other house of worship for other religions. That is why in the US Constitution we have the Freedom of Religion and no one can tell us what religion we need to be a part of or where we can worship.
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a-sassy-black-lady : Religion already plays a huge role in government. Just look at the United States. It drastically affects many decisions, and has been for hundreds of years. I'm Agnostic, and can usually be accepting of others religions and beliefs. However, seeing as the government is forcing religion down my throat, I can't stand it. Separation of church and state needs to be existent, and prominent in society. I'm not saying that the government needs to start banning religious practices, but when it all starts impeding on my own views, and controls what people can or cannot do, then I want religion to have no part in government. 
a-sassy-black-lady : Religion already plays a huge role in government. Just look at the United States. It drastically affects many decisions, and has been for hundreds of years. I'm Agnostic, and can usually be accepting of others religions and beliefs. However, seeing as the government is forcing religion down my throat, I can't stand it. Separation of church and state needs to be existent, and prominent in society. I'm not saying that the government needs to start banning religious practices, but when it all starts impeding on my own views, and controls what people can or cannot do, then I want religion to have no part in government. 
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a-sassy-black-lady : Do you want to live with a Christian version of the Taliban? You want books, music, even going outside illegalized? No? Then trust me, you don't want this. 
a-sassy-black-lady : Do you want to live with a Christian version of the Taliban? You want books, music, even going outside illegalized? No? Then trust me, you don't want this. 
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05-19-14 02:53 PM
play4fun is Offline
| ID: 1022479 | 46 Words

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SilverHyruler : Well, that is an extreme assertion. Where would you even get all of that when there is no reason or documentation that would show evidence that it would lead to that? Particularly in church history and in Christian theology, it would not lead to that.
SilverHyruler : Well, that is an extreme assertion. Where would you even get all of that when there is no reason or documentation that would show evidence that it would lead to that? Particularly in church history and in Christian theology, it would not lead to that.
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05-19-14 03:00 PM
SilverHyruler is Offline
| ID: 1022482 | 45 Words

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play4fun : The muslim religion is peaceful too. You see, in any religion, there's extremists. These guys, they bomb buildings, and don't say Christians don't. Cough, cough Oklahoma. Anyway, these guys bomb buildings, attack innocents, and if possible, take over countries. You want this too happen? 
play4fun : The muslim religion is peaceful too. You see, in any religion, there's extremists. These guys, they bomb buildings, and don't say Christians don't. Cough, cough Oklahoma. Anyway, these guys bomb buildings, attack innocents, and if possible, take over countries. You want this too happen? 
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05-19-14 05:58 PM
thenumberone is Offline
| ID: 1022583 | 107 Words

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play4fun :
"Where would you even get all of that when there is no reason or documentation that would show evidence that it would lead to that? Particularly in church history and in Christian theology, it would not lead to that."
So the crusades never happened? The mistreatment of non christians, and particularly jews that was endemic in europe when religion had a say in government?
There is pleenty of church history where they acted as medieval taliban.
Would america become like that? Maybe, maybe not. But your suggestion that such things have never occured amongst christians is nonsense. Almost every religion has had extremism in its past.
play4fun :
"Where would you even get all of that when there is no reason or documentation that would show evidence that it would lead to that? Particularly in church history and in Christian theology, it would not lead to that."
So the crusades never happened? The mistreatment of non christians, and particularly jews that was endemic in europe when religion had a say in government?
There is pleenty of church history where they acted as medieval taliban.
Would america become like that? Maybe, maybe not. But your suggestion that such things have never occured amongst christians is nonsense. Almost every religion has had extremism in its past.
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05-20-14 04:37 AM
play4fun is Offline
| ID: 1022794 | 321 Words

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SilverHyruler : You already said that every religion has extremists. So now the big question is, does the belief of these extremists actually align with the actual core beliefs and ethics of the religion themselves? If you study those events and the theology that they uphold in both their actions and their principles, you will know that they have no basis from the Bible that what they do aligns with Christian beliefs and are most likely not Christians in the first place. What I'm saying is that making the statement having "books, music, even going outside illegalized" is far fetched because nowhere in scripture actually promotes that.

thenumberone : Yes, and if you studied Christian theology alongside history, you can see that those people have a low (or neglectful) understanding of scripture. It's the theology that is faulty. So many people suggested the Crusades or the Inquisition, but has anyone actually studied if it's the theology that motivates them to do such things, or if it is their corruption? People just point to them and say "oh, those Christians" since the Crusades are started by professing Christians, when there are people inside the church that are not saved in the first place (and scripture warns about such people). There's a reason why there is such a thing called the Reformation, because someone proclaims how certain views in the church are contradictory to scripture; There's a reason why in the Bible itself, there's an incident that the Apostle Paul actually rebukes Apostle Peter for doing something wrong and hypocritical. You can't just look at the entire group of professing Christians and say that all their actions are following what Christianity stands for. You have to look and see where their theology is and if it is actually aligned with scripture. (I'm actually finishing up an article in a publication site about how hypocrisy within the church is not a valid reason to deny God)
SilverHyruler : You already said that every religion has extremists. So now the big question is, does the belief of these extremists actually align with the actual core beliefs and ethics of the religion themselves? If you study those events and the theology that they uphold in both their actions and their principles, you will know that they have no basis from the Bible that what they do aligns with Christian beliefs and are most likely not Christians in the first place. What I'm saying is that making the statement having "books, music, even going outside illegalized" is far fetched because nowhere in scripture actually promotes that.

thenumberone : Yes, and if you studied Christian theology alongside history, you can see that those people have a low (or neglectful) understanding of scripture. It's the theology that is faulty. So many people suggested the Crusades or the Inquisition, but has anyone actually studied if it's the theology that motivates them to do such things, or if it is their corruption? People just point to them and say "oh, those Christians" since the Crusades are started by professing Christians, when there are people inside the church that are not saved in the first place (and scripture warns about such people). There's a reason why there is such a thing called the Reformation, because someone proclaims how certain views in the church are contradictory to scripture; There's a reason why in the Bible itself, there's an incident that the Apostle Paul actually rebukes Apostle Peter for doing something wrong and hypocritical. You can't just look at the entire group of professing Christians and say that all their actions are following what Christianity stands for. You have to look and see where their theology is and if it is actually aligned with scripture. (I'm actually finishing up an article in a publication site about how hypocrisy within the church is not a valid reason to deny God)
Vizzed Elite
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