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The End Times: 10 Upcoming events in Bible prophecy

 

05-29-13 02:27 AM
SoL@R is Offline
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play4fun :
Singelli :

The reason for me writing this post is because there are a lot of questions surrounding this subject, especially among Christians and I’m
sure there will be even more questions after reading this post.  This is also kind of a response to the thread, What happens to the earth after Revelations 
Fulfilled prophecy is what sets the Bible apart from all other religious books.  There are 26 other books that people of faith believe are divinely inspired.  NONE of these books contain any specific fulfilled prophecies.  The Bible on the other hand is filled with fulfilled prophecy. 27% of the Bible contains predictive prophecies at the time it was written.  The Old Testament alone contains hundreds of very specific prophecies that have already happened.  The fact that these prophecies were fulfilled, gives us (Christians) the intellectual basis for believing that future.  Prophecies of the second coming of Christ, the rapture of the church, the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, to name just a few, are prophecies that will literally be fulfilled.  God wants and expects us to be thoroughly aware of the times in which we live.  He has given us many signs to help us recognize the time of His promised return. If you believe and follow Jesus Christ and you deem the Bible to be the divinely inspired, authoritative, trustworthy Word of God and if you have always wondered about end time events, this post will (hopefully) have some value to you.  I just have to be clear about a few things.  This is not my opinion or my own research.  This is a study that has already been done by many bible teachers, Christian apologists, pastors etc.  I have only made a summary
of the 10 major Biblical prophecies that still have to come to pass.  These events are placed in order on a "timeline"  that is designed to
be used in conjunction with your Bible.  Obviously there are more events surrounding this, but it is impossible to mention everything
here.  I apologise for the lengthy post, I’ve tried to keep it as “short” as possible.  For this reason also, I have summoned the moderators.  So, fasten your seat belts and let’s get cracking

1. THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 say, ”For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
The “dead in Christ” mentioned here are all the Christian believers who already died.  They will immediately rise from the dead with
glorified bodies to meet their spirit (that is already with the Lord) in heaven.  Then we, who are still alive, shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  Now the word “rapture” does not appear in scripture.  That word is “harpazo” in Greek, which literally means, “caught up”, “to seize”, “to pluck”, “to pull”, “to snatch away” etc.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52 say, ”Behold, I tell you a mystery: We
shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
 So this is a real sudden event and no one of course knows when this will take place.  “be caught up together with them”.  Who is this them?  It is our friends and family and all who knew the Lord that we will meet in the air.  It will be an awesome reunion.  Where will Jesus be taking those who partake in the rapture?  John 14:2-3 tells us, ”In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am,there you may be also.”.
Why can we believe in a Pretribulational rapture? Reasons are given in 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, ”For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” and in
1 Thessalonians 5:9, ”For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ”
So like Lot and his family that were delivered from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and like Noah and his family that were spared from the Great Flood, so will believers be delivered from the day of wrath.

2. THE BELIEVERS DAY OF REWARDS (The Bema Seat judgement)

Shortly after the rapture (see timeline), believers will stand before Jesus face to face to be “judged” according to our works.  This is called the Bema seat judgement.  2 Corinthians 5:10 say, ”For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”  So why must we as
believers be judged?  Our sins have been forgiven, yes, but the purpose for this is to determine which of the works that we have done in service for the Lord, has been done with a pure motive.  So it is actually a “rewards ceremony” if you will.  1 Corinthians 3:13-15,
”each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”  1 Corinthians 3:8, ”Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.”  Believers will be rewarded according to the resources, talents and time that God has given them.

3.  THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION PERIOD

Daniel 12:1 - ”At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.  And at that time your people shall be delivered, Everyone who is found written in the book.”
Matthew 24:21 – ”For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
This is a horrible time that will last for 7 years.  During this time the Antichrist will rise to power in a revived Roman Empire (Europe) and the Living God will pour out His wrath on this earth as this man gains political, economical and religious control, declaring himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).  This will be the worst time in the history of the world.  Some of the judgements that God will bring are listed below:

-Deadly famines (Revelations 6:8)Wars (Revelations 6:4)
-Fires (Revelations 8:7)
-Oceans will turn into blood (Revelations 8:8)
-Everything alive in the ocean will be killed (Revelations 16:3)
-The earth will be pummeled by asteroids (Revelations 8:10-11)
-A third of the world’s ships will be destroyed (Revelations 8:8-9)
-Demons will be unleashed to torment unbelievers for 5 months (Revelations 9:1-5)
-Incurable, open, oozing sores will be present on the bodies of followers of the Antichrist and those who have taken the mark of the beast (Revelations 16:2)
-Prolonged drought (Revelations 11:6)
-A great heat that will scorch the earth’s inhabitants (Revelations 16:8-9)
-100 pound hailstones will pound the earth (Revelations 16:21)
-A worldwide earthquake will cause cities of nations to fall (Revelations 16:19)
-Islands are going to disappear and mountains are going to crumble (Revelations 16:20)
-There will be darkness across the planet (Revelations 16:10)

These are just some of the terrible things that will occur during the Tribulation.  Half of the world’s population will die during this time.  By bringing all these things on the earth, God is hoping (although He already knows it because He is omniscient) that the people will come to their senses.  The gospel will still be preached during this time, ”Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” – Revelations 14:6-7.  
Many people will still turn to God during this time and will have their sins forgiven, but the Antichrist and his government, will severely persecute and kill the followers of Christ.  That is why it is important to acknowledge Jesus now.  You can say, “Well I’ll wait until the rapture to see if any of this mumbo jumbo is true, then I’ll make my decision.”  Well, if you can’t live for Jesus today, what makes you think that you will die for Him tomorrow?

Moving on…

4.  THE INVASION OF EZEKIEL 38 AND 39

Not long after the rapture has taken place, during the first 3 and a half years of the Tribulation, Israel will be attacked by a massive army.  The countries that will invade Israel according to the book of Ezekiel are Magog, Tubal, Togarmah, Persia etc.  Today these countries are known as Iran, Libya, Sudan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan etc.
The stage has already been set for this invasion.  These countries have 1 thing in common - a burning hatred for Israel.  The Iranian president almost on a weekly basis threaten or claim that they will wipe Israel off the face of the world.   God, however, is going to protect Israel supernaturally.  A massive earthquake, together with hailstones, fire and brimstone that will rain down upon these armies, will kill every last soldier.  The world will then realize that God IS Lord, Ezekiel 38:23 – ”Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.”’
During this time, the Jews will then also be able to rebuild their temple.

5. THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON

Preceding the second coming of Christ, in the 7th year of the Tribulation, the Battle of Armageddon will take place.  The word Armageddon consists out of 2 Hebrew words, “Har”, which means mountain and “Megiddo” which is an ancient city in the northern part of Israel.  So Armageddon literally means, “Mount of Megiddo”.  Armies from around the world will for a second time rise up against Israel, because they will realise that it was God that brought judgement on them and they will take their frustration out on Israel (Zechariah 12 & Matthew 24).
Two thirds of the Jews in Jerusalem will perish during this event – ”And it shall come to pass in all the land,”Says the Lord,“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,But one–third shall be left in it:” – Zechariah 13:8

6.  THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

Matthew 24:29-30 – “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Jesus will come down from heaven on a white horse (Revelations 19) and the believers (the church) and all the angels will be coming with Him (Revelations 19:14).  Jesus will touch down on the Mount of Olives and it will be split in two, from the east to the west (Zechariah 14:4).  It is also the same place where He ascended into heaven.  Jesus second coming will mark the end of the Antichrist and the false prophet and they will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelations 19:20).  Christ is coming back for sure.  His second coming is mentioned 1845 times in the Bible.  1527 times in the New Testament and 318 times in the Old Testament.

7. JUDGEMENT OF THE NATIONS

Matthew 25:31-41 – ”When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You,or thirsty and give You drink?  When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?  Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?  ’And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”
Those who are still alive after the Tribulation will be brought to Israel to face judgement. The purpose of this judgement is to determine who will and who will not enter Jesus’ 1000 year earthly kingdom.  Those who received and accepted the gospel during the Tribulation as
well as those who were saved prior to the Tribulation will enter Christ’s earthly kingdom.  Those who rejected the gospel message that will be preached during the Tribulation period, will be taken away and not permitted to enter the kingdom (Matthew 25:46).

8. THE 1000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST

This 1000 year reign spoken of in Revelations 20 is after the Judgement of the Nations, commonly known as the Millennium or the Millennial reign of Christ.  This will be a glorious time on earth.  The Bible has more to say about this time period than any other event in all of the Bible prophecies:

-The wicked will have been cast out during the Judgement of the Nations (Matthew 25:41)
-Satan will be locked up and will be unable to influence the world (Revelations 20:2-3)
-The Antichrist and false prophet will be in the lake of fire (Revelations 19:20)
-Jesus will be king of the world (Isaiah 9:6) ruling and reigning from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-2)
-There will be a worldwide knowledge of God (Isaiah 11:9)
-Believers or the saved will make yearly trips to Jerusalem to celebrate (Zechariah 14:16)
-Idolatry and false worship will be cut off (Zechariah 13:2-6)
-The 12 apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:29-30)
-All weapons of war will be destroyed (Isaiah 2:4)
-Removal of sickness (Isaiah 33:24; Jeremiah 30:17)
-Healing of the deformed (Isaiah 35:5-6)
-Fruitful, enjoyable labor (Isaiah 62:8-9 and 65:21-23)
-There will be one language (Zephaniah 3:9)
-There will be perfect justice in the courts (Isaiah 11:3-4; 1 Corinthians 6:1-2)
-The animal kingdom will enjoy perfect peace (Isaiah 11:6-9; Ezekiel 34:25; Isaiah 65:25)
-There will be great and wonderful changes to the environment.  Deserts will bloom and dry wastelands will be restored to rivers and lakes (Isaiah 35:1-2, 6b-7 and 55:13)

This will just be the beginning!

9. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT

This will take place after the 1000 year period.  Throughout history, when a person died who turned their back on God and His forgiveness, mercy and grace, goes to a place called “Hades” or “Sheol” (Luke 16:23) to await judgement.  In Revelations 20, John says that after the
1000 year reign of Christ, these people will be resurrected to stand before God at what John calls the Great white throne (Revelations 20:11).  This judgement will include all the non-believers / unsaved from the time of Adam (Genesis 1) up until the present time.  The Bible says that “the dead, the great, the small” (Revelations 20:12) will “come to life” (Revelations 20:5) to stand before God to have all their evil deeds, everything that they thought they got away with, exposed and to face God’s judgement (Revelations 20:12).  Books will be opened that contains a thorough record of all their sinful deeds (Hebrews 10:31).  This will only be the beginning of the sorrows of the unrighteous.
They will also be thrown in the lake of fire (Revelations 20:15).  For these people it will be an eternal separation from God in a place of darkness described by Jesus as a “furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:42).

10. ETERNITY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

After Satan, all the fallen angels and all the unrepentant sinners have been judged and locked away forever, 2 Peter 3:13 tells us that
God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelations 21:1 and Isaiah 65:17).  This planet is going to be destroyed (see Rev. 21:1).  In this new heaven and new earth, God is going to place a wonderful new city (Revelations 21:2) for His people to live in.  This city will be called “New Jerusalem”.  This city will be bigger that any city we’ve ever known (Revelations 21:16).  It will be about 12 000 furlongs long and it will be the same length in depth and in height.  That is about 1380 miles tall, wide and deep.  At its base alone, it will be 2 million square miles, not counting its height.  The city will be gigantic and glorious.  The outer wall will consist of Jasper which is similar to diamonds in appearance (Revelations 21:18).  The city itself will be made of pure gold and it will be radiating with God’s glory.  This city is going to descend through the new heavens and it will sit upon the new earth (Revelations 2:1-3). God is going to dwell among His people.  
Revelations 21:4 – ”And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Sin, death, sorrow and pain that have plagued mankind for thousands of years will be forever gone!
play4fun :
Singelli :

The reason for me writing this post is because there are a lot of questions surrounding this subject, especially among Christians and I’m
sure there will be even more questions after reading this post.  This is also kind of a response to the thread, What happens to the earth after Revelations 
Fulfilled prophecy is what sets the Bible apart from all other religious books.  There are 26 other books that people of faith believe are divinely inspired.  NONE of these books contain any specific fulfilled prophecies.  The Bible on the other hand is filled with fulfilled prophecy. 27% of the Bible contains predictive prophecies at the time it was written.  The Old Testament alone contains hundreds of very specific prophecies that have already happened.  The fact that these prophecies were fulfilled, gives us (Christians) the intellectual basis for believing that future.  Prophecies of the second coming of Christ, the rapture of the church, the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, to name just a few, are prophecies that will literally be fulfilled.  God wants and expects us to be thoroughly aware of the times in which we live.  He has given us many signs to help us recognize the time of His promised return. If you believe and follow Jesus Christ and you deem the Bible to be the divinely inspired, authoritative, trustworthy Word of God and if you have always wondered about end time events, this post will (hopefully) have some value to you.  I just have to be clear about a few things.  This is not my opinion or my own research.  This is a study that has already been done by many bible teachers, Christian apologists, pastors etc.  I have only made a summary
of the 10 major Biblical prophecies that still have to come to pass.  These events are placed in order on a "timeline"  that is designed to
be used in conjunction with your Bible.  Obviously there are more events surrounding this, but it is impossible to mention everything
here.  I apologise for the lengthy post, I’ve tried to keep it as “short” as possible.  For this reason also, I have summoned the moderators.  So, fasten your seat belts and let’s get cracking

1. THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 say, ”For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
The “dead in Christ” mentioned here are all the Christian believers who already died.  They will immediately rise from the dead with
glorified bodies to meet their spirit (that is already with the Lord) in heaven.  Then we, who are still alive, shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  Now the word “rapture” does not appear in scripture.  That word is “harpazo” in Greek, which literally means, “caught up”, “to seize”, “to pluck”, “to pull”, “to snatch away” etc.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52 say, ”Behold, I tell you a mystery: We
shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
 So this is a real sudden event and no one of course knows when this will take place.  “be caught up together with them”.  Who is this them?  It is our friends and family and all who knew the Lord that we will meet in the air.  It will be an awesome reunion.  Where will Jesus be taking those who partake in the rapture?  John 14:2-3 tells us, ”In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am,there you may be also.”.
Why can we believe in a Pretribulational rapture? Reasons are given in 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, ”For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” and in
1 Thessalonians 5:9, ”For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ”
So like Lot and his family that were delivered from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and like Noah and his family that were spared from the Great Flood, so will believers be delivered from the day of wrath.

2. THE BELIEVERS DAY OF REWARDS (The Bema Seat judgement)

Shortly after the rapture (see timeline), believers will stand before Jesus face to face to be “judged” according to our works.  This is called the Bema seat judgement.  2 Corinthians 5:10 say, ”For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”  So why must we as
believers be judged?  Our sins have been forgiven, yes, but the purpose for this is to determine which of the works that we have done in service for the Lord, has been done with a pure motive.  So it is actually a “rewards ceremony” if you will.  1 Corinthians 3:13-15,
”each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”  1 Corinthians 3:8, ”Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.”  Believers will be rewarded according to the resources, talents and time that God has given them.

3.  THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION PERIOD

Daniel 12:1 - ”At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.  And at that time your people shall be delivered, Everyone who is found written in the book.”
Matthew 24:21 – ”For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
This is a horrible time that will last for 7 years.  During this time the Antichrist will rise to power in a revived Roman Empire (Europe) and the Living God will pour out His wrath on this earth as this man gains political, economical and religious control, declaring himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).  This will be the worst time in the history of the world.  Some of the judgements that God will bring are listed below:

-Deadly famines (Revelations 6:8)Wars (Revelations 6:4)
-Fires (Revelations 8:7)
-Oceans will turn into blood (Revelations 8:8)
-Everything alive in the ocean will be killed (Revelations 16:3)
-The earth will be pummeled by asteroids (Revelations 8:10-11)
-A third of the world’s ships will be destroyed (Revelations 8:8-9)
-Demons will be unleashed to torment unbelievers for 5 months (Revelations 9:1-5)
-Incurable, open, oozing sores will be present on the bodies of followers of the Antichrist and those who have taken the mark of the beast (Revelations 16:2)
-Prolonged drought (Revelations 11:6)
-A great heat that will scorch the earth’s inhabitants (Revelations 16:8-9)
-100 pound hailstones will pound the earth (Revelations 16:21)
-A worldwide earthquake will cause cities of nations to fall (Revelations 16:19)
-Islands are going to disappear and mountains are going to crumble (Revelations 16:20)
-There will be darkness across the planet (Revelations 16:10)

These are just some of the terrible things that will occur during the Tribulation.  Half of the world’s population will die during this time.  By bringing all these things on the earth, God is hoping (although He already knows it because He is omniscient) that the people will come to their senses.  The gospel will still be preached during this time, ”Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” – Revelations 14:6-7.  
Many people will still turn to God during this time and will have their sins forgiven, but the Antichrist and his government, will severely persecute and kill the followers of Christ.  That is why it is important to acknowledge Jesus now.  You can say, “Well I’ll wait until the rapture to see if any of this mumbo jumbo is true, then I’ll make my decision.”  Well, if you can’t live for Jesus today, what makes you think that you will die for Him tomorrow?

Moving on…

4.  THE INVASION OF EZEKIEL 38 AND 39

Not long after the rapture has taken place, during the first 3 and a half years of the Tribulation, Israel will be attacked by a massive army.  The countries that will invade Israel according to the book of Ezekiel are Magog, Tubal, Togarmah, Persia etc.  Today these countries are known as Iran, Libya, Sudan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan etc.
The stage has already been set for this invasion.  These countries have 1 thing in common - a burning hatred for Israel.  The Iranian president almost on a weekly basis threaten or claim that they will wipe Israel off the face of the world.   God, however, is going to protect Israel supernaturally.  A massive earthquake, together with hailstones, fire and brimstone that will rain down upon these armies, will kill every last soldier.  The world will then realize that God IS Lord, Ezekiel 38:23 – ”Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.”’
During this time, the Jews will then also be able to rebuild their temple.

5. THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON

Preceding the second coming of Christ, in the 7th year of the Tribulation, the Battle of Armageddon will take place.  The word Armageddon consists out of 2 Hebrew words, “Har”, which means mountain and “Megiddo” which is an ancient city in the northern part of Israel.  So Armageddon literally means, “Mount of Megiddo”.  Armies from around the world will for a second time rise up against Israel, because they will realise that it was God that brought judgement on them and they will take their frustration out on Israel (Zechariah 12 & Matthew 24).
Two thirds of the Jews in Jerusalem will perish during this event – ”And it shall come to pass in all the land,”Says the Lord,“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,But one–third shall be left in it:” – Zechariah 13:8

6.  THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

Matthew 24:29-30 – “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Jesus will come down from heaven on a white horse (Revelations 19) and the believers (the church) and all the angels will be coming with Him (Revelations 19:14).  Jesus will touch down on the Mount of Olives and it will be split in two, from the east to the west (Zechariah 14:4).  It is also the same place where He ascended into heaven.  Jesus second coming will mark the end of the Antichrist and the false prophet and they will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelations 19:20).  Christ is coming back for sure.  His second coming is mentioned 1845 times in the Bible.  1527 times in the New Testament and 318 times in the Old Testament.

7. JUDGEMENT OF THE NATIONS

Matthew 25:31-41 – ”When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You,or thirsty and give You drink?  When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?  Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?  ’And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”
Those who are still alive after the Tribulation will be brought to Israel to face judgement. The purpose of this judgement is to determine who will and who will not enter Jesus’ 1000 year earthly kingdom.  Those who received and accepted the gospel during the Tribulation as
well as those who were saved prior to the Tribulation will enter Christ’s earthly kingdom.  Those who rejected the gospel message that will be preached during the Tribulation period, will be taken away and not permitted to enter the kingdom (Matthew 25:46).

8. THE 1000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST

This 1000 year reign spoken of in Revelations 20 is after the Judgement of the Nations, commonly known as the Millennium or the Millennial reign of Christ.  This will be a glorious time on earth.  The Bible has more to say about this time period than any other event in all of the Bible prophecies:

-The wicked will have been cast out during the Judgement of the Nations (Matthew 25:41)
-Satan will be locked up and will be unable to influence the world (Revelations 20:2-3)
-The Antichrist and false prophet will be in the lake of fire (Revelations 19:20)
-Jesus will be king of the world (Isaiah 9:6) ruling and reigning from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-2)
-There will be a worldwide knowledge of God (Isaiah 11:9)
-Believers or the saved will make yearly trips to Jerusalem to celebrate (Zechariah 14:16)
-Idolatry and false worship will be cut off (Zechariah 13:2-6)
-The 12 apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:29-30)
-All weapons of war will be destroyed (Isaiah 2:4)
-Removal of sickness (Isaiah 33:24; Jeremiah 30:17)
-Healing of the deformed (Isaiah 35:5-6)
-Fruitful, enjoyable labor (Isaiah 62:8-9 and 65:21-23)
-There will be one language (Zephaniah 3:9)
-There will be perfect justice in the courts (Isaiah 11:3-4; 1 Corinthians 6:1-2)
-The animal kingdom will enjoy perfect peace (Isaiah 11:6-9; Ezekiel 34:25; Isaiah 65:25)
-There will be great and wonderful changes to the environment.  Deserts will bloom and dry wastelands will be restored to rivers and lakes (Isaiah 35:1-2, 6b-7 and 55:13)

This will just be the beginning!

9. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT

This will take place after the 1000 year period.  Throughout history, when a person died who turned their back on God and His forgiveness, mercy and grace, goes to a place called “Hades” or “Sheol” (Luke 16:23) to await judgement.  In Revelations 20, John says that after the
1000 year reign of Christ, these people will be resurrected to stand before God at what John calls the Great white throne (Revelations 20:11).  This judgement will include all the non-believers / unsaved from the time of Adam (Genesis 1) up until the present time.  The Bible says that “the dead, the great, the small” (Revelations 20:12) will “come to life” (Revelations 20:5) to stand before God to have all their evil deeds, everything that they thought they got away with, exposed and to face God’s judgement (Revelations 20:12).  Books will be opened that contains a thorough record of all their sinful deeds (Hebrews 10:31).  This will only be the beginning of the sorrows of the unrighteous.
They will also be thrown in the lake of fire (Revelations 20:15).  For these people it will be an eternal separation from God in a place of darkness described by Jesus as a “furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:42).

10. ETERNITY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

After Satan, all the fallen angels and all the unrepentant sinners have been judged and locked away forever, 2 Peter 3:13 tells us that
God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelations 21:1 and Isaiah 65:17).  This planet is going to be destroyed (see Rev. 21:1).  In this new heaven and new earth, God is going to place a wonderful new city (Revelations 21:2) for His people to live in.  This city will be called “New Jerusalem”.  This city will be bigger that any city we’ve ever known (Revelations 21:16).  It will be about 12 000 furlongs long and it will be the same length in depth and in height.  That is about 1380 miles tall, wide and deep.  At its base alone, it will be 2 million square miles, not counting its height.  The city will be gigantic and glorious.  The outer wall will consist of Jasper which is similar to diamonds in appearance (Revelations 21:18).  The city itself will be made of pure gold and it will be radiating with God’s glory.  This city is going to descend through the new heavens and it will sit upon the new earth (Revelations 2:1-3). God is going to dwell among His people.  
Revelations 21:4 – ”And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Sin, death, sorrow and pain that have plagued mankind for thousands of years will be forever gone!
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wow...
those are some sickening prophecies.
wow...
those are some sickening prophecies.
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Can I just say, this was very well done. I always appreciate your posts, and you don't disappoint! XD

thenumberone : They sure are. That's why we Christians are (or should be) vocal about Christ. Anyone who doesn't put his/her faith in Christ will take part in these negative prophecies. Not gonna lie, it will be absolutely terrible. I mean, this is the full wrath of an all powerful God we're talking about. It will be insanely terrible to experience.

There is a way to avoid it though, and only one way. Jesus Christ. If you accept him, and I mean truly accept him, you'll be taken up into heaven before this ever starts. My prayer is that you will, I would hate to know that you went through this and went to the lake of fire.
Can I just say, this was very well done. I always appreciate your posts, and you don't disappoint! XD

thenumberone : They sure are. That's why we Christians are (or should be) vocal about Christ. Anyone who doesn't put his/her faith in Christ will take part in these negative prophecies. Not gonna lie, it will be absolutely terrible. I mean, this is the full wrath of an all powerful God we're talking about. It will be insanely terrible to experience.

There is a way to avoid it though, and only one way. Jesus Christ. If you accept him, and I mean truly accept him, you'll be taken up into heaven before this ever starts. My prayer is that you will, I would hate to know that you went through this and went to the lake of fire.
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Amazing, as always.  I really enjoyed reading this, as this is probably the part of the bible I am LEAST familiar with.  I especially love the fact that you provided the scriptural references, so that I can go read up on more of it myself.  Thank you SO much!

The trials will indeed be great, and just reading this should remind any true follower of Christ why it is so important to go out and be a witness.  In our words, deeds, and thoughts, we should always seek to lead others to the Kingdom, so that they can avoid these upcoming and terrible times.  Our God is an amazing and all powerful One, who will NOT go against His own word.  We need to act NOW and always keep the end goal in mind!
Amazing, as always.  I really enjoyed reading this, as this is probably the part of the bible I am LEAST familiar with.  I especially love the fact that you provided the scriptural references, so that I can go read up on more of it myself.  Thank you SO much!

The trials will indeed be great, and just reading this should remind any true follower of Christ why it is so important to go out and be a witness.  In our words, deeds, and thoughts, we should always seek to lead others to the Kingdom, so that they can avoid these upcoming and terrible times.  Our God is an amazing and all powerful One, who will NOT go against His own word.  We need to act NOW and always keep the end goal in mind!
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mrfe :
I dont agree with blackmail
mrfe :
I dont agree with blackmail
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mrfe :
Singelli :

Glad to see that I could contribute You have put the pin in the purpose of this post.  

thenumberone :  "I dont agree with blackmail"

Me neither.  That's why we were given free will.  We all have a choice, the question is what do you do with the information /choices presented to you?  Look, we are all sinners.  We have lied, we have stolen in one way or the other, we have blasphemed, we've hated (which is murder in God's eyes) etc.  In essence, we all have broken God's law (10 commandments).  There is not one perfect, sinless person on this earth, not one (Romans 3:10-11).  I'm saying this sincerely - it does not matter if you do not believe in the Bible - God's Word.  You will still have to face Him on judgement day.  If you broke the law today, say if you have stolen a car, you will go to court to be judged.  All evidence points that you are 100% guilty.  If the judge is good and fair, you are going to pay for your crimes.  If you walk around carelessly on the freeway, saying that you don't believe in trucks, your unbelief is not going to change reality.  Back in the courtroom - The bail for your crime is so great that you cannot afford it, but what if someone you don't know walks into the courtroom and pays your fine in your stead, setting you free, immediately.  Wouldn't you be grateful, to say the least?  That's exactly what Jesus did for you and me.  We broke God's law, we are guilty beyond doubt and because God is holy, perfect, good and just, He will give us a fair trial and we WILL be punished for our crimes.  That punishment is eternal death (Matthew 25:46 & Romans 6:23).  The "flip side" is that God does not want anyone to perish, because He loves us so much man - "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."- 2 Peter 3:9
For that, He sent Jesus Christ His only Son to this earth, to suffer and die on the cross for the sins you and I committed.  By His life's blood and by His resurrection from death on the third day, the death that sin brings, was forever broken and if you repent (turn away) from your sin, confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved and God will grant you everlasting life. You can walk out of the courtroom a free man.  I have chosen that path, not because I was forced to or blackmailed, but because it is a free gift from God that I have accepted.  I want part of a kingdom that lasts forever and where there is no suffering, pain, death and if I know the way to receive that gift for free I would want to share it with everyone.
mrfe :
Singelli :

Glad to see that I could contribute You have put the pin in the purpose of this post.  

thenumberone :  "I dont agree with blackmail"

Me neither.  That's why we were given free will.  We all have a choice, the question is what do you do with the information /choices presented to you?  Look, we are all sinners.  We have lied, we have stolen in one way or the other, we have blasphemed, we've hated (which is murder in God's eyes) etc.  In essence, we all have broken God's law (10 commandments).  There is not one perfect, sinless person on this earth, not one (Romans 3:10-11).  I'm saying this sincerely - it does not matter if you do not believe in the Bible - God's Word.  You will still have to face Him on judgement day.  If you broke the law today, say if you have stolen a car, you will go to court to be judged.  All evidence points that you are 100% guilty.  If the judge is good and fair, you are going to pay for your crimes.  If you walk around carelessly on the freeway, saying that you don't believe in trucks, your unbelief is not going to change reality.  Back in the courtroom - The bail for your crime is so great that you cannot afford it, but what if someone you don't know walks into the courtroom and pays your fine in your stead, setting you free, immediately.  Wouldn't you be grateful, to say the least?  That's exactly what Jesus did for you and me.  We broke God's law, we are guilty beyond doubt and because God is holy, perfect, good and just, He will give us a fair trial and we WILL be punished for our crimes.  That punishment is eternal death (Matthew 25:46 & Romans 6:23).  The "flip side" is that God does not want anyone to perish, because He loves us so much man - "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."- 2 Peter 3:9
For that, He sent Jesus Christ His only Son to this earth, to suffer and die on the cross for the sins you and I committed.  By His life's blood and by His resurrection from death on the third day, the death that sin brings, was forever broken and if you repent (turn away) from your sin, confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved and God will grant you everlasting life. You can walk out of the courtroom a free man.  I have chosen that path, not because I was forced to or blackmailed, but because it is a free gift from God that I have accepted.  I want part of a kingdom that lasts forever and where there is no suffering, pain, death and if I know the way to receive that gift for free I would want to share it with everyone.
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not really.
if I say to you youre free to cross the bridge, but one day I will mutilate you for doing it?
I am a pessimist. its not enough that someone helps you. if they are also responsible for all youre misfortune. and since god controls all things...
also theres the fact that I dont agree with doing all the things in the prophecies. its immoral. if I believed in god and followed id be consenting to them, and I cant be party to that. no one has the right to do such evil deeds.
there are plenty of stupid and unfair laws made by man, and id think nothing of breaking them. likewise id think it unfair to punish someone for it. so it is with god. people are to be punished for frankly, victimless crimes.

I dont really understand youre example of not believing in trucks, they are very much proven. we know what they are, how they work, where they came from. can see them, touch etc.
not in anyway meant to be rude, but what more tangible proof is there of god than unicorns? we rely on books for both.

I actualy have a question about that if youd humour me.

god sent his only child to repay our debt.
the debt was to god, in the form of sin. jesus and god are apparently one and the same. so god created himself, sent himself to die (even though he cant truely die) in a barbaric manner, in order to satisfy... himself?
it seems like that hasnt actually achieved much.


see I can only conclude, that being told to do something or else you will be put through pain, is blackmail. that point for me overrides all other blackmail.
by the prophecies god is perfectly able to remove satan, yet he has not yet done so. why?
trivia question actualy, are we to assume hell existed before satan?
if yes, for what purpose?
if no how did satan actually manage it?

will hell exist after satan is deposed?
if yes; why?
if no: what exactly happens to sinners? they simply die?

on the more relevant note of the prophecies, I have some disputes.

the revised roman empire thing, I can only put it down to the time it was written, but of any dictatorship I doubt it would rise in italy, in any event they are fairely weak right now.

the 7 year tribulation period:

that really seems to be genocide, on a greater scale than adolf hitler acomplished. are you really saying the only way for an allknowing, all powerfull being to influence us is through murder? some might argue thats very primitive. would that have been ok in germany? kill every civilian until they surrender?
also there is an exceptional irony here, that the romans, who are responsible for the spread of christianity, will attempt to destroy it. you realise Italy is a stronghold of the faith?

4/invasion
these countries no longer exist. they dont even have the same borders. thats like interchanging cumbria with england.

but assuming its true.
you do realise turkey is one of israels allies right? they cooperate in several areas.
on top of that they will probably be part of the eu in a few years time.

jesus doesent sound so loving toward the end there...

question, again.
the temptation of sin will be gone. what happened to free will?
equally, does this mean no descendents of the saved can be corrupted? if this is the case couldnt all the problems be solved by removing satan? it seems are roads point back to gods failure as a parent (in my book anyway).
again though, assuming humanity has been purged, evil cannot touch man anymore, why exactly doesent god let the sinners in? by the sound of it they would no longer be influenced by evil?

/end essay

not really.
if I say to you youre free to cross the bridge, but one day I will mutilate you for doing it?
I am a pessimist. its not enough that someone helps you. if they are also responsible for all youre misfortune. and since god controls all things...
also theres the fact that I dont agree with doing all the things in the prophecies. its immoral. if I believed in god and followed id be consenting to them, and I cant be party to that. no one has the right to do such evil deeds.
there are plenty of stupid and unfair laws made by man, and id think nothing of breaking them. likewise id think it unfair to punish someone for it. so it is with god. people are to be punished for frankly, victimless crimes.

I dont really understand youre example of not believing in trucks, they are very much proven. we know what they are, how they work, where they came from. can see them, touch etc.
not in anyway meant to be rude, but what more tangible proof is there of god than unicorns? we rely on books for both.

I actualy have a question about that if youd humour me.

god sent his only child to repay our debt.
the debt was to god, in the form of sin. jesus and god are apparently one and the same. so god created himself, sent himself to die (even though he cant truely die) in a barbaric manner, in order to satisfy... himself?
it seems like that hasnt actually achieved much.


see I can only conclude, that being told to do something or else you will be put through pain, is blackmail. that point for me overrides all other blackmail.
by the prophecies god is perfectly able to remove satan, yet he has not yet done so. why?
trivia question actualy, are we to assume hell existed before satan?
if yes, for what purpose?
if no how did satan actually manage it?

will hell exist after satan is deposed?
if yes; why?
if no: what exactly happens to sinners? they simply die?

on the more relevant note of the prophecies, I have some disputes.

the revised roman empire thing, I can only put it down to the time it was written, but of any dictatorship I doubt it would rise in italy, in any event they are fairely weak right now.

the 7 year tribulation period:

that really seems to be genocide, on a greater scale than adolf hitler acomplished. are you really saying the only way for an allknowing, all powerfull being to influence us is through murder? some might argue thats very primitive. would that have been ok in germany? kill every civilian until they surrender?
also there is an exceptional irony here, that the romans, who are responsible for the spread of christianity, will attempt to destroy it. you realise Italy is a stronghold of the faith?

4/invasion
these countries no longer exist. they dont even have the same borders. thats like interchanging cumbria with england.

but assuming its true.
you do realise turkey is one of israels allies right? they cooperate in several areas.
on top of that they will probably be part of the eu in a few years time.

jesus doesent sound so loving toward the end there...

question, again.
the temptation of sin will be gone. what happened to free will?
equally, does this mean no descendents of the saved can be corrupted? if this is the case couldnt all the problems be solved by removing satan? it seems are roads point back to gods failure as a parent (in my book anyway).
again though, assuming humanity has been purged, evil cannot touch man anymore, why exactly doesent god let the sinners in? by the sound of it they would no longer be influenced by evil?

/end essay

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thenumberone : Mutilate me? How did you get that from anything we've said? God has provided a way for you to avoid the punishment you deserve, where's the mutilation in that? If anything, it's unfair! Each and every one of us should be burning in hell forever, yet Christians will be living in perfection forever! Sin isn't just "Oh, well it didn't hurt anyone. What's the big deal?", it's spitting in the face of the most powerful being ever! If each and every one of us does that many times each day, isn't his anger justified?

To use the courtroom analogy: Let's say I've totaled your car purposefully. You are the judge for the case. You confronted me about it, and I laughed about it and smashed up your computer. Would you get angry, would you punish me justly for my actions? Or would you be all like "Nah, it's cool bro"? Personally, I know I'd get mad. The pain we have in this world is a direct result of sin. If God just let us do whatever without giving us the consequences of our actions, he wouldn't be a very good or just God, now would He? If God is just, he must punish our wrong-doing. Wouldn't you agree with that?

What proof is there for God? Go outside, look around! The world screams "I have a creator!" How could something so complex happen without a designer? That'd be like an earthquake happening, and the rubble turning into a perfectly designed house with no flaws (at creation)! I think you'd agree, that's impossible! The Bible is the Creator's book, inspired by Him and written by human authors. What proof is there that it's false?

God sent His Son, Jesus (who yes, is fully God), down to earth. At this point, Jesus also became fully man, allowing His death to fully cover our sins. If Jesus had sinned, even once, His death would have been meaningless. Because he lived a perfect life, fully without sin, His death on the cross (the worst possible way to die in that era) covers our sin, fully and completely! When we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit (yes, fully God) comes and lives in us!

Genocide? God will rightfully punish anyone and everyone in the world who has not trusted Jesus with their life, regardless of religion or race. Let me use vizzed as an example. If you go around cussing, for example, David won't like that, will he? He may hold of on punishing you, for a while, but if you don't change then he will have to punish you to maintain a fair site. Right? If he didn't, he'd be an unfair owner. It's a similar situation with God and the world, except God is much more powerful than David ever will be. lol. You can't murder someone and get away with it, right? So why should God just let our sins slide?

God loves all of His creation (except sin, duh), but He would be a bad ruler if He didn't enforce His rules.

With the amount of power God has, He could do much worse. Hell is much, much worse. Like, worse than your worst nightmare multiplied. I am forever thankful to God for providing a way to escape that which we've earned!
thenumberone : Mutilate me? How did you get that from anything we've said? God has provided a way for you to avoid the punishment you deserve, where's the mutilation in that? If anything, it's unfair! Each and every one of us should be burning in hell forever, yet Christians will be living in perfection forever! Sin isn't just "Oh, well it didn't hurt anyone. What's the big deal?", it's spitting in the face of the most powerful being ever! If each and every one of us does that many times each day, isn't his anger justified?

To use the courtroom analogy: Let's say I've totaled your car purposefully. You are the judge for the case. You confronted me about it, and I laughed about it and smashed up your computer. Would you get angry, would you punish me justly for my actions? Or would you be all like "Nah, it's cool bro"? Personally, I know I'd get mad. The pain we have in this world is a direct result of sin. If God just let us do whatever without giving us the consequences of our actions, he wouldn't be a very good or just God, now would He? If God is just, he must punish our wrong-doing. Wouldn't you agree with that?

What proof is there for God? Go outside, look around! The world screams "I have a creator!" How could something so complex happen without a designer? That'd be like an earthquake happening, and the rubble turning into a perfectly designed house with no flaws (at creation)! I think you'd agree, that's impossible! The Bible is the Creator's book, inspired by Him and written by human authors. What proof is there that it's false?

God sent His Son, Jesus (who yes, is fully God), down to earth. At this point, Jesus also became fully man, allowing His death to fully cover our sins. If Jesus had sinned, even once, His death would have been meaningless. Because he lived a perfect life, fully without sin, His death on the cross (the worst possible way to die in that era) covers our sin, fully and completely! When we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit (yes, fully God) comes and lives in us!

Genocide? God will rightfully punish anyone and everyone in the world who has not trusted Jesus with their life, regardless of religion or race. Let me use vizzed as an example. If you go around cussing, for example, David won't like that, will he? He may hold of on punishing you, for a while, but if you don't change then he will have to punish you to maintain a fair site. Right? If he didn't, he'd be an unfair owner. It's a similar situation with God and the world, except God is much more powerful than David ever will be. lol. You can't murder someone and get away with it, right? So why should God just let our sins slide?

God loves all of His creation (except sin, duh), but He would be a bad ruler if He didn't enforce His rules.

With the amount of power God has, He could do much worse. Hell is much, much worse. Like, worse than your worst nightmare multiplied. I am forever thankful to God for providing a way to escape that which we've earned!
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mrfe :
"Mutilate me? How did you get that from anything we've said? God has provided a way for you to avoid the punishment you deserve, where's the mutilation in that?"


Incurable, open, oozing sores will be present on the bodies of followers of the Antichrist and those who have taken the mark of the beast

"Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"


As well as asteriods, famine, drought, and in the meantime, the apparent promise of ever lasting anguish in hell.
I dispute I deserve this punishment, and I question who he is to judge when his actions are as such? Would you pass such judgement on people on earth? would you command these things? I am confused how you can condemn people for misdeeds and completely one up them by obliterating most of the worlds populace.Because by accepting it, you are part of it. The morality here is really hard to see, because these acts are heinous and barbaric. If anyone but god acted like this you would condemn them.
Even the devil (by the bible) isnt planning on doing these things. I cant really see how god is more moral than satan in this scenario.
You are saying its justified because he is the most powerfull being. Is that all it takes?more power?might is right? Like adolf?stallin?attila?genghis khan? I could justify evil acts if i was the most powerfull? Or is it simplyu because god apparently created us? Creating something gives you the right to blatently mistreat it? I cant see the logic in this.

Youre courtroom analogy is defunct, their are victims in that scenario.
If i took a muslim and shot him for not accepting christ, that also has a victim. And yet apparently god has worse in store for them. Not believing in christ is victimless. If i dont believe you are real when someone tells me about you, that doesent make you a victim. And yet with god, that is a crime equal to rape and murder. Would you accept it if every guilty verdict in court was death or enslavement for eternity? Their is no sense of scale here.
If god wants to do away with pain he should do away with satan, since apparently its through him we sin. Yet satan was one of gods angels, so its gods fault he is influencing us. Yet he has done nothing about it. But thats our fault?How?

I just talked to a tree, it didnt scream I have a creator. Thats not evidence. The fact something exists doesent = god. While theorys like the big bang have tangible evidence, god doesent, thats why its a faith. You could question what started the big bang and state that it is therefore not true, but if i asky you who created god, what would you say?hes always been there?yet i cant say the universe has always been there? For some reason thats less acceptable?Your question would be how can it have come from nothing, yet you fail to realise that question can equally be put to god.

"That'd be like an earthquake happening, and the rubble turning into a perfectly designed house with no flaws (at creation)!"
actualy, in technicality, there is nothing to stop that happening. I cant remember what its called, some werid theory named after some scientist probably, but a guy was in the dessert, talking about how, scientifically, there is nothing to stop the sand forming into a perfect castle. However the odds were slim.
Even though the odds of life are low, if the universe is as big as we believe it to be, its inevitable that it (life) will occur in multiple locations.
Also, you are incorrect because you are talking as if it all just happened at once(which is the creationist theory, not the scientific one). In fact for the first few MILLION years earth would have been nothing more than a molten lump. I wouldnt be surprised if for half of the earths existence, there wasnt even any life on it.
If i agree thats impossible, i might as well agree creation is impossible, since it occured in such a lesser amount of time. No offence but youre jumping around here, claiming non christian ideas couldnt occur, yet claiming events and occurences, statistically far less likely, are in fact solid fact.


The Bible is the Creator's book, inspired by Him and written by human authors. What proof is there that it's false?
Unfortunately thats not how it works. When you have a theory, you have to prove it before it becomes accepted. Its not like i can state if you inject yourself with lucozade you grow horns, and have that accepted as fact until someone disproves it.
Evidence is gathered by people until the odds are statistically high for the theory, and then people address these points and see if they can tear them down. The bible hasnt garnered enough to be declared fact. Most scientists for that reason, dont actually believe it.

The jesus thing. You havent really addressed why god, sacrificing himself in an alternate form to himself to pay off his own debt, works? Hes god and makes 'the rules', so what exactly stopped him just forgiving the debt?

genocide:
Except swearing is culturally offensive to people. And david wouldnt have them killed.
Not believing something, as i said before, is victimless, yet under god this carrys a punishment higher than mans punishment for rapists and murderers. Again, disproportionate punishment.

God loves all of His creation (except sin, duh)
So you are confirming that god created sin and not man?So why did god make sin? to what end?what purpose?
How can you love yet strike down men woman and children, under the name of moral goodness?
He would be a bad ruler if his lasting legacy is pain and suffering. And that's what it seems to be to me.

How?how could it be worse? I mean frankly, if we look at the number of people god killed in the bible, you have to wonder where the morality is?
God, by the bibles specified numbers, has killed 2,476,633 people.
But of course many events dont specify how many he killed, so the number can be upward of around 24,000,000
Given this is in a time with significantly fewer humans, that is a lot.
The of course we have the evil satan, who killed:


10

And funnily enough, he killed them as part of a bet with god.
So god actually permitted it.
mrfe :
"Mutilate me? How did you get that from anything we've said? God has provided a way for you to avoid the punishment you deserve, where's the mutilation in that?"


Incurable, open, oozing sores will be present on the bodies of followers of the Antichrist and those who have taken the mark of the beast

"Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"


As well as asteriods, famine, drought, and in the meantime, the apparent promise of ever lasting anguish in hell.
I dispute I deserve this punishment, and I question who he is to judge when his actions are as such? Would you pass such judgement on people on earth? would you command these things? I am confused how you can condemn people for misdeeds and completely one up them by obliterating most of the worlds populace.Because by accepting it, you are part of it. The morality here is really hard to see, because these acts are heinous and barbaric. If anyone but god acted like this you would condemn them.
Even the devil (by the bible) isnt planning on doing these things. I cant really see how god is more moral than satan in this scenario.
You are saying its justified because he is the most powerfull being. Is that all it takes?more power?might is right? Like adolf?stallin?attila?genghis khan? I could justify evil acts if i was the most powerfull? Or is it simplyu because god apparently created us? Creating something gives you the right to blatently mistreat it? I cant see the logic in this.

Youre courtroom analogy is defunct, their are victims in that scenario.
If i took a muslim and shot him for not accepting christ, that also has a victim. And yet apparently god has worse in store for them. Not believing in christ is victimless. If i dont believe you are real when someone tells me about you, that doesent make you a victim. And yet with god, that is a crime equal to rape and murder. Would you accept it if every guilty verdict in court was death or enslavement for eternity? Their is no sense of scale here.
If god wants to do away with pain he should do away with satan, since apparently its through him we sin. Yet satan was one of gods angels, so its gods fault he is influencing us. Yet he has done nothing about it. But thats our fault?How?

I just talked to a tree, it didnt scream I have a creator. Thats not evidence. The fact something exists doesent = god. While theorys like the big bang have tangible evidence, god doesent, thats why its a faith. You could question what started the big bang and state that it is therefore not true, but if i asky you who created god, what would you say?hes always been there?yet i cant say the universe has always been there? For some reason thats less acceptable?Your question would be how can it have come from nothing, yet you fail to realise that question can equally be put to god.

"That'd be like an earthquake happening, and the rubble turning into a perfectly designed house with no flaws (at creation)!"
actualy, in technicality, there is nothing to stop that happening. I cant remember what its called, some werid theory named after some scientist probably, but a guy was in the dessert, talking about how, scientifically, there is nothing to stop the sand forming into a perfect castle. However the odds were slim.
Even though the odds of life are low, if the universe is as big as we believe it to be, its inevitable that it (life) will occur in multiple locations.
Also, you are incorrect because you are talking as if it all just happened at once(which is the creationist theory, not the scientific one). In fact for the first few MILLION years earth would have been nothing more than a molten lump. I wouldnt be surprised if for half of the earths existence, there wasnt even any life on it.
If i agree thats impossible, i might as well agree creation is impossible, since it occured in such a lesser amount of time. No offence but youre jumping around here, claiming non christian ideas couldnt occur, yet claiming events and occurences, statistically far less likely, are in fact solid fact.


The Bible is the Creator's book, inspired by Him and written by human authors. What proof is there that it's false?
Unfortunately thats not how it works. When you have a theory, you have to prove it before it becomes accepted. Its not like i can state if you inject yourself with lucozade you grow horns, and have that accepted as fact until someone disproves it.
Evidence is gathered by people until the odds are statistically high for the theory, and then people address these points and see if they can tear them down. The bible hasnt garnered enough to be declared fact. Most scientists for that reason, dont actually believe it.

The jesus thing. You havent really addressed why god, sacrificing himself in an alternate form to himself to pay off his own debt, works? Hes god and makes 'the rules', so what exactly stopped him just forgiving the debt?

genocide:
Except swearing is culturally offensive to people. And david wouldnt have them killed.
Not believing something, as i said before, is victimless, yet under god this carrys a punishment higher than mans punishment for rapists and murderers. Again, disproportionate punishment.

God loves all of His creation (except sin, duh)
So you are confirming that god created sin and not man?So why did god make sin? to what end?what purpose?
How can you love yet strike down men woman and children, under the name of moral goodness?
He would be a bad ruler if his lasting legacy is pain and suffering. And that's what it seems to be to me.

How?how could it be worse? I mean frankly, if we look at the number of people god killed in the bible, you have to wonder where the morality is?
God, by the bibles specified numbers, has killed 2,476,633 people.
But of course many events dont specify how many he killed, so the number can be upward of around 24,000,000
Given this is in a time with significantly fewer humans, that is a lot.
The of course we have the evil satan, who killed:


10

And funnily enough, he killed them as part of a bet with god.
So god actually permitted it.
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thenumberone :  "I dont really understand youre example of not believing in trucks..."
Not to be funny and all, but I'm not sure if I should take this seriously.  Of course trucks are real. I was only using it figuratively. There are barriers, red / yellow lines and signs on a freeway, warning you of fast moving vehicles, including big trucks.  If you ignore those barriers and carelessly walk there you are bound to get hit by something.  The signs, barriers, lines etc. are there to protect you.  That's exactly why God gave us His law, the 10 commandments.  He didn't give it to ruin our lives and to take away the enjoyable things in this life.  It was given to PROTECT us.  Example:  look at the commandment, "thou shall not commit adultery".  Think about how many families are broken and have suffered loss because the fathers / mothers could not honor the promise they made to God when they got married (for the record - outside of marriage also applies).  "thou shall not steal" - how many young kids have ruined their lives with a criminal record because they couldn't keep their hands to themselves and made a stupid decision?  I can go on and on.

"so God created Himself..."
God did not create Himself and nobody created God.  He is by nature the eternal God.  He always was, is and always will be.  He did not have any parents.  He has no beginning and will have no end.  Psalm 90:2 say, "Even from everlasting to everlasting you are God"
We are used to thinking that everything must have a beginning, there had to be something that has existed eternally.  The Bible says that it is an infinite, personal God.  It is one of those mysteries of life that we will probably never have the answer to.  The only other choice is to argue that some sort of material has existed eternally.  So in the end you have to choose between an infinite personal God who has always existed, or lifeless impersonal matter.

"in order to satisfy Himself?"
No.  Jesus, as God became a human being, yes.  This is known as the "incarnation".  In Latin this means "in flesh".  It is not a biblical word but it presents biblical truth.  Jesus is the eternal God that became flesh and blood.  He did so without giving up His oneness with God and He was thus the only man that walked this earth who was holy, righteous, perfect, without sin.  So, why did He laid aside His heavenly glory to live on earth and to die?  The Bible gives many reasons why God came down to earth, but to keep this as short as possible, I will only address the one of the reasons you asked about:  Jesus came to die for the sins of the world. Why? 
When God created human beings He gave them a choice, to obey or disobey.  When Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, they brought evil into the universe (read Genesis if you don't know how the event goes, or let me know, I will gladly respond ).  Evil is an action or relationship, not a created substance.  God did not create evil, neither is He to blame for the evil in the universe.  He could have made you a robot who would react the way He wanted you to react, but He didn't.  You would not have any significance.  He made you in such a way that you could CHOOSE whether or not to obey Him.  Evil in the universe is due to the direct choice of individuals - murder, stealing, lying etc. cannot be blamed upon God.  People chose / choose to do these things and must be held accountable.  I think I answered the question in your last post, "Did God create sin (evil)?"  Back to the question at hand.  When sin entered the world, God instituted the concept of substitutionary sacrifice where God required the sacrifice to die.  However, the sacrifices of animals or an ordinary human being could not take away sin.  What was needed was the perfect sacrifice.  This was accomplished with God becoming a human being, because He is perfect, holy, without sin.  So you and me who is imperfect and unholy and with sin, would simply not do as a sacrifice to save all the people in the world.  If someone that you don't even know was sentenced to death, would you die in that person's place just so that he / she can go free?  I don't think I would be able to do that.  See God has this perfect standard that none of us can live up to because of our sinful nature, we broke that law and someone had to take the fall.  It should have been me, it should have been you, but Jesus, who was not even guilty, decided to take the blame, the shame and punishment for the evil stuff that we and we alone have done and caused so that we can be saved, if you acknowledge Him.  That's it.  He did not do it for His satisfaction or His pleasure.  He did it for you so that you can have eternal life.

"god is perfectly able to remove satan, yet he has not yet done so. why?"
Short answer.  I don't know.  God has not revealed it in scripture.  We can only speculate about this.  What I do know is that God is all knowing.  He knew the angel would rebel against Him and that he would cause much grief and suffering.  God also said in the Bible that He has not told us everything about Himself or about His plan (Deuteronomy 29:29).  Also, His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9) and because of this His ways are past finding out (Romans 11:33).

"are we to assume hell existed before satan?" and "for what purpose?" 
I don't think so.  Satan was not a created being.  The created angel, Lucifer, sinned against God by rebelling against Him and became Satan.  Hell was probably created at that moment.  Personally I am not sure.  The important thing is that hell was not created as a judgment for humanity.  It was created for the punishment of Satan and his angels.  Hell was created as a place of judgment for Satan and those who follow him in their rebellion against God.  That is what the Bible teaches.

"if no how did satan actually manage it?"
Not sure what you mean by, "how did satan actually manage it".  Managed what? Creating hell?

"will hell exist after satan is deposed? if yes; why? if no: what exactly happens to sinners? they simply die?"
Answer to the first question is, yes.  Hell is an everlasting punishment for the wicked.  There is no end.  It is described throughout the Bible as a place of "eternal fire", "unquenchable fire", a place of "torment" and "fire".  I think I have mostly answered these questions in my original post.  All unrepentant sinners is destined for hell.  The Bible is very clear about that.

"are you really saying the only way for an allknowing, all powerfull being to influence us is through murder? some might argue thats very primitive. would that have been ok in germany? kill every civilian until they surrender?"
Not genocide, but judgment.  It cannot even be remotely compared to the horrible Nazi regime.  No one was given a choice.  If you belonged to the wrong race, you were slaughtered.  No questions asked, no options given, no grace, no mercy.
God is perfect and He is a God of love, yes, but He is also just.  These moral attributes, justice and love, are complementary, not contradictory.  When the laws of God are disobeyed, there must be a judgment.  God's law demand that sin must be paid for.  God can still love someone, but He cannot allow sin to go unpunished.  That's the whole reason Jesus died for you and me.  You have heard this probably over and over by now.  You know this.  You know what the road is to life eternal.  I don't want to stand before God's judgment seat one day and see you looking at me all surprised when judgment is given.  That's why I spend hours preparing certain posts.  I'm not doing this to get my word count up and to get rewarded.  I'm not lying to you.  What would I gain through that?  I don't know you, but I do care about you and where you will spend eternity.  If I care about a total stranger, just imagine how the God that made you must care about you.  I don't know if you've got kids since you are still young according to your profile, but I love my 2 year old son to bits.  If I see that he is going to stick his finger in the electrical socket (where I'm from our electrical sockets have round holes -  yeah, pretty stupid and dangerous design ) I will properly warn him not to do that.  If he does not listen, I will spank him.  Yes, it will hurt, but it will be for his own good, because his actions can kill him.  God is extremely patient and we are living in an age of grace.  There is still time, but soon enough God's patience will also run out and the effect of that will be the Tribulation.

"you realise Italy is a stronghold of the faith?"
The Christian faith?  This is a whole thread on it's own and it can be very sensitive, so I'm not going to go into that right now.

"you do realise turkey is one of israels allies right?"
That might be true now, but I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or in 10 years time.  The countries' names might not exist anymore (we are talking about more than 2000 years ago that those prophecies were made) since names get changed over time, but the geographical locations are still the same.  

"the temptation of sin will be gone. what happened to free will?
I have no clear cut answer for you here since, as I've mentioned before, not all has been revealed to us in the Bible.  However, the Bible is clear about one thing.  Sin and temptation will be gone yes.  Perhaps our ability to choose will be like that of the angels.  The angels had a one-time choice to obey God or to follow Satan.  There is no possibility of further angels sinning and joining Satan in his rebellion.  The holy angels are "elect angels" (1 Timothy 5:21).  Similarly the elect in heaven will be "sealed" in their decision to forsake sin and trust in Christ.  We will not even have the choice to sin.  In all honesty, having been delivered from evil and sin and seeing the awesome stuff that God has in store for us and the glory of Christ and His kingdom, I wouldn't want to choose to sin even if I had the choice.

"does this mean no descendents of the saved can be corrupted?"
Do you mean right now during this time, or during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth?  If you refer to this time now, then the answer is yes.  Every individual must personally make a choice for or against Christ.  Being saved does not make by little boy saved by default.  If you are referring to the peaceful 1000 years of Jesus' kingdom on the earth, then my answer is - No, I don't believe so.  My wife and I actually had an interesting discussion last night about the husband-wife state during Jesus' 1000 year reign on earth.  Will we still have children?  That I don't know.  Maybe someone here have some insight on that.  All we do know is that there will be peace and no sin, so even if we did still have children during that time, I believe they will not and cannot become corrupted.

" if this is the case couldnt all the problems be solved by removing satan?"
I think we've covered this already.

"again though, assuming humanity has been purged, evil cannot touch man anymore, why exactly doesent god let the sinners in? by the sound of it they would no longer be influenced by evil?"
If God let sinners into His kingdom one day then there is absolutely no use for Christianity.  Christ death on the cross would have no meaning.  I think I have explained this already.  Jesus' death was necessary to complete the plan of redemption for the sinful world.  He had to die so that others could live.  He was the sacrifice that was acceptable to God and it was God's visible demonstration of His love for a sinful humanity.  Also, God is holy and perfect, otherwise He wouldn't be God.  Being holy means that He is separate or cut off from everything that is sinful and evil.  He cannot tolerate sin.  By being tolerant of sin, and letting sin slide to let sinners into paradise, would give God a flawed character.  Everything that He ever said and done would be meaningless, since He would contradict Himself.  I can throw away my Bible and everything I believe in and stand for and just carry on living recklessly because God would let me into heaven anyways.  That's just ridiculous.  Like I've said before, God is very patient.  He still gives time for you to make the right choice before the "court hearing".  On the other hand, you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.  You might get hit by a car and die and I pray then that you have made the choice for Christ, because if you die now and you haven't chosen to believe, trust and follow Him, it will be too late.  Don't wait until judgment day comes.  It will be too late.  Don't wait until the rapture to see how things will pan out.  Like I've said before, if you can't live for Jesus now, what makes you think that you will die for Him tomorrow?
thenumberone :  "I dont really understand youre example of not believing in trucks..."
Not to be funny and all, but I'm not sure if I should take this seriously.  Of course trucks are real. I was only using it figuratively. There are barriers, red / yellow lines and signs on a freeway, warning you of fast moving vehicles, including big trucks.  If you ignore those barriers and carelessly walk there you are bound to get hit by something.  The signs, barriers, lines etc. are there to protect you.  That's exactly why God gave us His law, the 10 commandments.  He didn't give it to ruin our lives and to take away the enjoyable things in this life.  It was given to PROTECT us.  Example:  look at the commandment, "thou shall not commit adultery".  Think about how many families are broken and have suffered loss because the fathers / mothers could not honor the promise they made to God when they got married (for the record - outside of marriage also applies).  "thou shall not steal" - how many young kids have ruined their lives with a criminal record because they couldn't keep their hands to themselves and made a stupid decision?  I can go on and on.

"so God created Himself..."
God did not create Himself and nobody created God.  He is by nature the eternal God.  He always was, is and always will be.  He did not have any parents.  He has no beginning and will have no end.  Psalm 90:2 say, "Even from everlasting to everlasting you are God"
We are used to thinking that everything must have a beginning, there had to be something that has existed eternally.  The Bible says that it is an infinite, personal God.  It is one of those mysteries of life that we will probably never have the answer to.  The only other choice is to argue that some sort of material has existed eternally.  So in the end you have to choose between an infinite personal God who has always existed, or lifeless impersonal matter.

"in order to satisfy Himself?"
No.  Jesus, as God became a human being, yes.  This is known as the "incarnation".  In Latin this means "in flesh".  It is not a biblical word but it presents biblical truth.  Jesus is the eternal God that became flesh and blood.  He did so without giving up His oneness with God and He was thus the only man that walked this earth who was holy, righteous, perfect, without sin.  So, why did He laid aside His heavenly glory to live on earth and to die?  The Bible gives many reasons why God came down to earth, but to keep this as short as possible, I will only address the one of the reasons you asked about:  Jesus came to die for the sins of the world. Why? 
When God created human beings He gave them a choice, to obey or disobey.  When Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, they brought evil into the universe (read Genesis if you don't know how the event goes, or let me know, I will gladly respond ).  Evil is an action or relationship, not a created substance.  God did not create evil, neither is He to blame for the evil in the universe.  He could have made you a robot who would react the way He wanted you to react, but He didn't.  You would not have any significance.  He made you in such a way that you could CHOOSE whether or not to obey Him.  Evil in the universe is due to the direct choice of individuals - murder, stealing, lying etc. cannot be blamed upon God.  People chose / choose to do these things and must be held accountable.  I think I answered the question in your last post, "Did God create sin (evil)?"  Back to the question at hand.  When sin entered the world, God instituted the concept of substitutionary sacrifice where God required the sacrifice to die.  However, the sacrifices of animals or an ordinary human being could not take away sin.  What was needed was the perfect sacrifice.  This was accomplished with God becoming a human being, because He is perfect, holy, without sin.  So you and me who is imperfect and unholy and with sin, would simply not do as a sacrifice to save all the people in the world.  If someone that you don't even know was sentenced to death, would you die in that person's place just so that he / she can go free?  I don't think I would be able to do that.  See God has this perfect standard that none of us can live up to because of our sinful nature, we broke that law and someone had to take the fall.  It should have been me, it should have been you, but Jesus, who was not even guilty, decided to take the blame, the shame and punishment for the evil stuff that we and we alone have done and caused so that we can be saved, if you acknowledge Him.  That's it.  He did not do it for His satisfaction or His pleasure.  He did it for you so that you can have eternal life.

"god is perfectly able to remove satan, yet he has not yet done so. why?"
Short answer.  I don't know.  God has not revealed it in scripture.  We can only speculate about this.  What I do know is that God is all knowing.  He knew the angel would rebel against Him and that he would cause much grief and suffering.  God also said in the Bible that He has not told us everything about Himself or about His plan (Deuteronomy 29:29).  Also, His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9) and because of this His ways are past finding out (Romans 11:33).

"are we to assume hell existed before satan?" and "for what purpose?" 
I don't think so.  Satan was not a created being.  The created angel, Lucifer, sinned against God by rebelling against Him and became Satan.  Hell was probably created at that moment.  Personally I am not sure.  The important thing is that hell was not created as a judgment for humanity.  It was created for the punishment of Satan and his angels.  Hell was created as a place of judgment for Satan and those who follow him in their rebellion against God.  That is what the Bible teaches.

"if no how did satan actually manage it?"
Not sure what you mean by, "how did satan actually manage it".  Managed what? Creating hell?

"will hell exist after satan is deposed? if yes; why? if no: what exactly happens to sinners? they simply die?"
Answer to the first question is, yes.  Hell is an everlasting punishment for the wicked.  There is no end.  It is described throughout the Bible as a place of "eternal fire", "unquenchable fire", a place of "torment" and "fire".  I think I have mostly answered these questions in my original post.  All unrepentant sinners is destined for hell.  The Bible is very clear about that.

"are you really saying the only way for an allknowing, all powerfull being to influence us is through murder? some might argue thats very primitive. would that have been ok in germany? kill every civilian until they surrender?"
Not genocide, but judgment.  It cannot even be remotely compared to the horrible Nazi regime.  No one was given a choice.  If you belonged to the wrong race, you were slaughtered.  No questions asked, no options given, no grace, no mercy.
God is perfect and He is a God of love, yes, but He is also just.  These moral attributes, justice and love, are complementary, not contradictory.  When the laws of God are disobeyed, there must be a judgment.  God's law demand that sin must be paid for.  God can still love someone, but He cannot allow sin to go unpunished.  That's the whole reason Jesus died for you and me.  You have heard this probably over and over by now.  You know this.  You know what the road is to life eternal.  I don't want to stand before God's judgment seat one day and see you looking at me all surprised when judgment is given.  That's why I spend hours preparing certain posts.  I'm not doing this to get my word count up and to get rewarded.  I'm not lying to you.  What would I gain through that?  I don't know you, but I do care about you and where you will spend eternity.  If I care about a total stranger, just imagine how the God that made you must care about you.  I don't know if you've got kids since you are still young according to your profile, but I love my 2 year old son to bits.  If I see that he is going to stick his finger in the electrical socket (where I'm from our electrical sockets have round holes -  yeah, pretty stupid and dangerous design ) I will properly warn him not to do that.  If he does not listen, I will spank him.  Yes, it will hurt, but it will be for his own good, because his actions can kill him.  God is extremely patient and we are living in an age of grace.  There is still time, but soon enough God's patience will also run out and the effect of that will be the Tribulation.

"you realise Italy is a stronghold of the faith?"
The Christian faith?  This is a whole thread on it's own and it can be very sensitive, so I'm not going to go into that right now.

"you do realise turkey is one of israels allies right?"
That might be true now, but I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or in 10 years time.  The countries' names might not exist anymore (we are talking about more than 2000 years ago that those prophecies were made) since names get changed over time, but the geographical locations are still the same.  

"the temptation of sin will be gone. what happened to free will?
I have no clear cut answer for you here since, as I've mentioned before, not all has been revealed to us in the Bible.  However, the Bible is clear about one thing.  Sin and temptation will be gone yes.  Perhaps our ability to choose will be like that of the angels.  The angels had a one-time choice to obey God or to follow Satan.  There is no possibility of further angels sinning and joining Satan in his rebellion.  The holy angels are "elect angels" (1 Timothy 5:21).  Similarly the elect in heaven will be "sealed" in their decision to forsake sin and trust in Christ.  We will not even have the choice to sin.  In all honesty, having been delivered from evil and sin and seeing the awesome stuff that God has in store for us and the glory of Christ and His kingdom, I wouldn't want to choose to sin even if I had the choice.

"does this mean no descendents of the saved can be corrupted?"
Do you mean right now during this time, or during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth?  If you refer to this time now, then the answer is yes.  Every individual must personally make a choice for or against Christ.  Being saved does not make by little boy saved by default.  If you are referring to the peaceful 1000 years of Jesus' kingdom on the earth, then my answer is - No, I don't believe so.  My wife and I actually had an interesting discussion last night about the husband-wife state during Jesus' 1000 year reign on earth.  Will we still have children?  That I don't know.  Maybe someone here have some insight on that.  All we do know is that there will be peace and no sin, so even if we did still have children during that time, I believe they will not and cannot become corrupted.

" if this is the case couldnt all the problems be solved by removing satan?"
I think we've covered this already.

"again though, assuming humanity has been purged, evil cannot touch man anymore, why exactly doesent god let the sinners in? by the sound of it they would no longer be influenced by evil?"
If God let sinners into His kingdom one day then there is absolutely no use for Christianity.  Christ death on the cross would have no meaning.  I think I have explained this already.  Jesus' death was necessary to complete the plan of redemption for the sinful world.  He had to die so that others could live.  He was the sacrifice that was acceptable to God and it was God's visible demonstration of His love for a sinful humanity.  Also, God is holy and perfect, otherwise He wouldn't be God.  Being holy means that He is separate or cut off from everything that is sinful and evil.  He cannot tolerate sin.  By being tolerant of sin, and letting sin slide to let sinners into paradise, would give God a flawed character.  Everything that He ever said and done would be meaningless, since He would contradict Himself.  I can throw away my Bible and everything I believe in and stand for and just carry on living recklessly because God would let me into heaven anyways.  That's just ridiculous.  Like I've said before, God is very patient.  He still gives time for you to make the right choice before the "court hearing".  On the other hand, you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.  You might get hit by a car and die and I pray then that you have made the choice for Christ, because if you die now and you haven't chosen to believe, trust and follow Him, it will be too late.  Don't wait until judgment day comes.  It will be too late.  Don't wait until the rapture to see how things will pan out.  Like I've said before, if you can't live for Jesus now, what makes you think that you will die for Him tomorrow?
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this was a fun read... and i did have many points to make.. but these discussions always end up in frustration for both sides...  so i'll just keep my opinion short and sweet...

Why do i have to fear any of this punishment and judgement.... when death appears i'll happily embrace it...  if some higher being has a problem with that so be it.... i want to enjoy my time on this planet and if that means i have to suffer immensely after i die then i have no problems with that.... if i was to accept God i'd be lying to myself that he exists and i'm pretty sure that's a sin in itself...
this was a fun read... and i did have many points to make.. but these discussions always end up in frustration for both sides...  so i'll just keep my opinion short and sweet...

Why do i have to fear any of this punishment and judgement.... when death appears i'll happily embrace it...  if some higher being has a problem with that so be it.... i want to enjoy my time on this planet and if that means i have to suffer immensely after i die then i have no problems with that.... if i was to accept God i'd be lying to myself that he exists and i'm pretty sure that's a sin in itself...
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thenumberone :


Well here's the answer to the free will question.


Some people want to know why God allowed us to choose between sin and righteousness.

I would say that it is impossible to have free will and to not have the choice between good and evil.
I'm not sure about the 1,000 year reign of Christ, maybe even during that time we will be able to choose between right and wrong.

I'm unsure.

To ask God to give us free will, without the ability to choose evil, is like asking God to make a square 
without using right angles. But you can't do it.

As for Satan sinning. I don't think that God knew that Satan would sin.

God is all knowing of the present, but necessarily the future, due to free will.
See what I typed out below.

Please note that it's hard for lesser being to understand their creator.
It's kinda like two gold fish living in a goldfish bowl.
One fish says to the other:

     "Why does that big creature scope us up all of the sudden with that scary net? 
It's terrifying! He's a horrible master!"

Well, as it turns out, the human is just taking the fish and putting them into another container
while he cleans out the fish bowl. But the human can't communicate that to the fish, can he?
This is because the fish are not able to comprehend the need for the cleaning of their tank. They 
are too simple.

As for the evidence for creation ordeal, have you ever seen the Alpha bits cold breakfast cereal?

Lets suppose you wake up one mourning, you walk downstairs and you see Alpha bits on the table spelling out this message:

     
     Take out the garbage

          - Mom

How so suppose that the message got there?
Did the cat knock the box over? Did and earthquake cause that?
Would you throw out common sense and say that either of these things happened?
Or say " Well, there's no reason it couldn't happen"
It could have happened by chance, (we know that it didn't).

But I don't have enough faith to believe that.

The Alpha bits spelling out that message by accident is more likely than the universe 
creating life you know.

SoL@R :

I would have to respectfully disagree.
Yes God is all-knowing, but He doesn't perfectly know the future.
Why?

Because we are free willed beings.

Free willed beings make REAL choices, they don't just make choices based on intellect and programming but
also on the basis of free will.

You can't make a square circle, it's impossible. You can't predict a free willed beings choices with 100% accuracy 100% of the time.
simply because then we would not be free willed, we would just be really complicated robots of which God is observing.

We can say that God is all -knowing, but not of the future. Or else we make a category mistake. Did that make sense?
thenumberone :


Well here's the answer to the free will question.


Some people want to know why God allowed us to choose between sin and righteousness.

I would say that it is impossible to have free will and to not have the choice between good and evil.
I'm not sure about the 1,000 year reign of Christ, maybe even during that time we will be able to choose between right and wrong.

I'm unsure.

To ask God to give us free will, without the ability to choose evil, is like asking God to make a square 
without using right angles. But you can't do it.

As for Satan sinning. I don't think that God knew that Satan would sin.

God is all knowing of the present, but necessarily the future, due to free will.
See what I typed out below.

Please note that it's hard for lesser being to understand their creator.
It's kinda like two gold fish living in a goldfish bowl.
One fish says to the other:

     "Why does that big creature scope us up all of the sudden with that scary net? 
It's terrifying! He's a horrible master!"

Well, as it turns out, the human is just taking the fish and putting them into another container
while he cleans out the fish bowl. But the human can't communicate that to the fish, can he?
This is because the fish are not able to comprehend the need for the cleaning of their tank. They 
are too simple.

As for the evidence for creation ordeal, have you ever seen the Alpha bits cold breakfast cereal?

Lets suppose you wake up one mourning, you walk downstairs and you see Alpha bits on the table spelling out this message:

     
     Take out the garbage

          - Mom

How so suppose that the message got there?
Did the cat knock the box over? Did and earthquake cause that?
Would you throw out common sense and say that either of these things happened?
Or say " Well, there's no reason it couldn't happen"
It could have happened by chance, (we know that it didn't).

But I don't have enough faith to believe that.

The Alpha bits spelling out that message by accident is more likely than the universe 
creating life you know.

SoL@R :

I would have to respectfully disagree.
Yes God is all-knowing, but He doesn't perfectly know the future.
Why?

Because we are free willed beings.

Free willed beings make REAL choices, they don't just make choices based on intellect and programming but
also on the basis of free will.

You can't make a square circle, it's impossible. You can't predict a free willed beings choices with 100% accuracy 100% of the time.
simply because then we would not be free willed, we would just be really complicated robots of which God is observing.

We can say that God is all -knowing, but not of the future. Or else we make a category mistake. Did that make sense?
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I apologise for the late reply, i have been exceptionally busy

SoL@R :
the trucks example

yes, but examples should be relative, as in they should actually be somewhere on the same level as the object of comparisson. Comparing proven with unproven does not work. I understand you are stating that there is cause and effect, and that there are complications from going against rules, but while thats proven with trucks, its not with gods.
Equally with god the rules are things he doesent like.
With trucks, the rules are to prevent accidental injury.
Again, it comes down to victim V victim-less.
Adultery and theft are not victimless, and in fact there are generaly laws enrooted in nations regardless of the faith of the people. Divorcesettlements tend to favour the victim in settlements, and thiefs, well i dont have to explain that im sure. It is not simply considered or proven wrong by the bible. These things were punishable long before the bible was even created.

"God did not create Himself"
So Jesus is a different entity?
"He always was, is and always will be"
The universe always was, is and always will be.
Why is that less plausible? I realise you didnt specifically say that but its just a question i have since a lot of christians act like it is less plausible.

"in order to satisfy Himself?"
He may have walked as flesh and blood but as he was ressurected he wasnt really human was he. Unless god (who, is apparently not jesus at this point, yet jesus is a form of god)resurrected himself.
I wasnt asking why the sacrifice was needed in the context of what humans owed. I am aware of the adam and eve, apple and snake etc etc. (Although that brings another question, after this rapture, what happens if the perfect humans then decide to ignore him again?).
Anyway, returning to the point at hand.
Im not sure if you misunderstood my point, or didnt really have an answer, but that wasnt the question i had.
I will try to break it down to the base points.

-Humans have sinned
-Impurity, evil
-what is sin is defined by gods word
-Hence he is the one humans are indebted to

-God created himself in another carnation (or not, im getting different answers here, by most standards im directed that it is all part of the trinity)
-he sent himself (or not) down to earth
-He (as jesus) knew he would die, as he was all knowing all powerfull
-He is crucified
-jesus asks god to have mercy (even though he is god)
-God is angry at his death (despite the fact, hes not really dead, and he knew he would be crucified)
-And yet he forgives the debt as jesus (himself) has repaid it

God is all powerfull, he created himself to be a sacrifice, to himself. To repay himself.v For our debt of sin.
To me, this seems like a landlord, naming himself as responsible for payment of rent, taking himself to court, and then sacrificing himself before the law to pay the bill. in that scenario, surely the landlord would say to the tenant, i forgive your debt. Why go to such a drawn out proccess to achieve the same thing?
That is my confusion.

"He knew the angel would rebel against Him and that he would cause much grief and suffering"
If i knew that Tamerlan Tsarnaev (boston bomber) was planning to do the heinous deeds he did, i would be tried as an acommplic for not acting on the information. Considering that satan is apparently responsible for this, and all else, and god is all knowing, then he is an acomplice to every crime ever commited, even our own sins.

"are we to assume hell existed before satan?" and "for what purpose?"
Why is it that when man rebelled against god, we got sent to earth where he sought to rehabilitate us, but when satan rebelled he was sent to a pit of fire, of which he was designated ruler? It seems in that context god wanted to create this evil force.

"if no how did satan actually manage it?"
yes, how did satan manage to create hell. Since you stated god created it though, that point is now irrelevant.

"will hell exist after satan is deposed? if yes; why? if no: what exactly happens to sinners? they simply die?"
Why has god disposed of us several times (exile to earth, the flood etc) and yet this time round, intends to just exile us all to hell?

"Not genocide, but judgment.  It cannot even be remotely compared to the horrible Nazi regime."
God is killing/maiming all those who will not follow his orders, believe as he does and surrender body and mind. The nazis put people who would not follow the german archetype in camps like the gypsys and the gays. They were lucky in that sens because they would die. The idea of hell though, is you never get to meet death, just the pain and sorrow, endless.
And thos of different faith. Jews mainly.
Muslims, jews, hindus, all hell bound for following the wrong god, again, far worse than the death camps.
 
" He is a God of love, yes, but He is also just."
Do you think the above is loving and just? Would you do that to your children if they would not follow you?


"I don't know you, but I do care about you and where you will spend eternity"
I appreciate that, however there is a fundamental issue.
It wouldnt matter to me if god was proven real, if i was stood before him being judged. Because i have my own experiences and my own morals. I disagree with the actions attributed to god. I see them as highly unmoral. And i recognise that in accepting his rule, i would also be an accomplice to all this wrong. If god were real it would be almost ironic. jesus apparently sacrificed himself rather than see the people held down by sin. I would sooner have that suffering than be a part of what i regard as the real sin, the sin of death, murder, rape, poverty, generall suffering, which by all accounts are know by god. Mayber not perpetraded (though certanly some are) however tolerated.
You know when i walked the fields of the somme, the cemeterys of zonnebeke, thiepval etc, do you know what the most common inscription on the grave stone was?
Known unto god. Over and over and over and over. And yet the carnage continued. 
That is my opinion, and my 'belief' as it were.

"you do realise turkey is one of israels allies right?"
Well as it stands they are about the most secular muslim country in existance. In fact, they are actually now protesting that they dont think their country is secular enough 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22749750
theres no accounting for the future, but israel is really closer to extremism than turkey.
Heres a question, jews are not following the correct faith (by christianitys view) nor are the muslims. Yet really they are 3 takes on the 1 religion. Why exactly do the jews get help, and not the muslims?

"but the geographical locations are still the same"
Not really, the location is the same because you are going by the names of the countrys that now occupy those areas, but to all intents and purposes, they are new countrys, clearly indicated by the fact that there are now more, they can not all be successor states.

"I wouldn't want to choose to sin even if I had the choice"
Before you were arguing gods reasons for giving us choice, now you are arguing for it to be taken?

"If God let sinners into His kingdom one day then there is absolutely no use for Christianity"
I thought the point of the thing was god wanted his creations to be pure. With the removal of evil they would be. Does it matter which road you take when you arrive at the same destination?
What else does he seek?they would be pure, and hence what he had hoped we would be when he created us (despite being all knowing).

"if you can't live for Jesus now, what makes you think that you will die for Him tomorrow?"
I wouldn't. Thats the point.
Im only debating these points because im interested in your answers.


Sword legion :
I think most of your post can be addressed by what i already said, however a few precise points:
"As for Satan sinning. I don't think that God knew that Satan would sin."
so he is not all knowing?
Everyone can be knowing of the present, its already happened. Its the future that god is supposed to know.

The fish analogy:
well perhaps so, however I have not observed any giant hand from the sky.

"Alpha bits cold breakfast cereal"
I have never once poured cereal and had it say convert to christ, nor seen messages in the sky, or even so much as had a dream about christ.
With anything, i am sceptical without proof, not just religion. The idea that i would lower my requirements for something that would fundamentaly change my life is illogical.
The universe is very old, life would happen eventually. Maybe the odds of cereal forming words are greater, but they have fewer variables. What are the odds humans would make that cereal as it is? The odds of it being that colour? The odds of us using  a liquid like milk, allowing it to float?With each, the odds decrease, yet it still happened.


I apologise for the late reply, i have been exceptionally busy

SoL@R :
the trucks example

yes, but examples should be relative, as in they should actually be somewhere on the same level as the object of comparisson. Comparing proven with unproven does not work. I understand you are stating that there is cause and effect, and that there are complications from going against rules, but while thats proven with trucks, its not with gods.
Equally with god the rules are things he doesent like.
With trucks, the rules are to prevent accidental injury.
Again, it comes down to victim V victim-less.
Adultery and theft are not victimless, and in fact there are generaly laws enrooted in nations regardless of the faith of the people. Divorcesettlements tend to favour the victim in settlements, and thiefs, well i dont have to explain that im sure. It is not simply considered or proven wrong by the bible. These things were punishable long before the bible was even created.

"God did not create Himself"
So Jesus is a different entity?
"He always was, is and always will be"
The universe always was, is and always will be.
Why is that less plausible? I realise you didnt specifically say that but its just a question i have since a lot of christians act like it is less plausible.

"in order to satisfy Himself?"
He may have walked as flesh and blood but as he was ressurected he wasnt really human was he. Unless god (who, is apparently not jesus at this point, yet jesus is a form of god)resurrected himself.
I wasnt asking why the sacrifice was needed in the context of what humans owed. I am aware of the adam and eve, apple and snake etc etc. (Although that brings another question, after this rapture, what happens if the perfect humans then decide to ignore him again?).
Anyway, returning to the point at hand.
Im not sure if you misunderstood my point, or didnt really have an answer, but that wasnt the question i had.
I will try to break it down to the base points.

-Humans have sinned
-Impurity, evil
-what is sin is defined by gods word
-Hence he is the one humans are indebted to

-God created himself in another carnation (or not, im getting different answers here, by most standards im directed that it is all part of the trinity)
-he sent himself (or not) down to earth
-He (as jesus) knew he would die, as he was all knowing all powerfull
-He is crucified
-jesus asks god to have mercy (even though he is god)
-God is angry at his death (despite the fact, hes not really dead, and he knew he would be crucified)
-And yet he forgives the debt as jesus (himself) has repaid it

God is all powerfull, he created himself to be a sacrifice, to himself. To repay himself.v For our debt of sin.
To me, this seems like a landlord, naming himself as responsible for payment of rent, taking himself to court, and then sacrificing himself before the law to pay the bill. in that scenario, surely the landlord would say to the tenant, i forgive your debt. Why go to such a drawn out proccess to achieve the same thing?
That is my confusion.

"He knew the angel would rebel against Him and that he would cause much grief and suffering"
If i knew that Tamerlan Tsarnaev (boston bomber) was planning to do the heinous deeds he did, i would be tried as an acommplic for not acting on the information. Considering that satan is apparently responsible for this, and all else, and god is all knowing, then he is an acomplice to every crime ever commited, even our own sins.

"are we to assume hell existed before satan?" and "for what purpose?"
Why is it that when man rebelled against god, we got sent to earth where he sought to rehabilitate us, but when satan rebelled he was sent to a pit of fire, of which he was designated ruler? It seems in that context god wanted to create this evil force.

"if no how did satan actually manage it?"
yes, how did satan manage to create hell. Since you stated god created it though, that point is now irrelevant.

"will hell exist after satan is deposed? if yes; why? if no: what exactly happens to sinners? they simply die?"
Why has god disposed of us several times (exile to earth, the flood etc) and yet this time round, intends to just exile us all to hell?

"Not genocide, but judgment.  It cannot even be remotely compared to the horrible Nazi regime."
God is killing/maiming all those who will not follow his orders, believe as he does and surrender body and mind. The nazis put people who would not follow the german archetype in camps like the gypsys and the gays. They were lucky in that sens because they would die. The idea of hell though, is you never get to meet death, just the pain and sorrow, endless.
And thos of different faith. Jews mainly.
Muslims, jews, hindus, all hell bound for following the wrong god, again, far worse than the death camps.
 
" He is a God of love, yes, but He is also just."
Do you think the above is loving and just? Would you do that to your children if they would not follow you?


"I don't know you, but I do care about you and where you will spend eternity"
I appreciate that, however there is a fundamental issue.
It wouldnt matter to me if god was proven real, if i was stood before him being judged. Because i have my own experiences and my own morals. I disagree with the actions attributed to god. I see them as highly unmoral. And i recognise that in accepting his rule, i would also be an accomplice to all this wrong. If god were real it would be almost ironic. jesus apparently sacrificed himself rather than see the people held down by sin. I would sooner have that suffering than be a part of what i regard as the real sin, the sin of death, murder, rape, poverty, generall suffering, which by all accounts are know by god. Mayber not perpetraded (though certanly some are) however tolerated.
You know when i walked the fields of the somme, the cemeterys of zonnebeke, thiepval etc, do you know what the most common inscription on the grave stone was?
Known unto god. Over and over and over and over. And yet the carnage continued. 
That is my opinion, and my 'belief' as it were.

"you do realise turkey is one of israels allies right?"
Well as it stands they are about the most secular muslim country in existance. In fact, they are actually now protesting that they dont think their country is secular enough 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22749750
theres no accounting for the future, but israel is really closer to extremism than turkey.
Heres a question, jews are not following the correct faith (by christianitys view) nor are the muslims. Yet really they are 3 takes on the 1 religion. Why exactly do the jews get help, and not the muslims?

"but the geographical locations are still the same"
Not really, the location is the same because you are going by the names of the countrys that now occupy those areas, but to all intents and purposes, they are new countrys, clearly indicated by the fact that there are now more, they can not all be successor states.

"I wouldn't want to choose to sin even if I had the choice"
Before you were arguing gods reasons for giving us choice, now you are arguing for it to be taken?

"If God let sinners into His kingdom one day then there is absolutely no use for Christianity"
I thought the point of the thing was god wanted his creations to be pure. With the removal of evil they would be. Does it matter which road you take when you arrive at the same destination?
What else does he seek?they would be pure, and hence what he had hoped we would be when he created us (despite being all knowing).

"if you can't live for Jesus now, what makes you think that you will die for Him tomorrow?"
I wouldn't. Thats the point.
Im only debating these points because im interested in your answers.


Sword legion :
I think most of your post can be addressed by what i already said, however a few precise points:
"As for Satan sinning. I don't think that God knew that Satan would sin."
so he is not all knowing?
Everyone can be knowing of the present, its already happened. Its the future that god is supposed to know.

The fish analogy:
well perhaps so, however I have not observed any giant hand from the sky.

"Alpha bits cold breakfast cereal"
I have never once poured cereal and had it say convert to christ, nor seen messages in the sky, or even so much as had a dream about christ.
With anything, i am sceptical without proof, not just religion. The idea that i would lower my requirements for something that would fundamentaly change my life is illogical.
The universe is very old, life would happen eventually. Maybe the odds of cereal forming words are greater, but they have fewer variables. What are the odds humans would make that cereal as it is? The odds of it being that colour? The odds of us using  a liquid like milk, allowing it to float?With each, the odds decrease, yet it still happened.


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SoL@R : So, any opinion on the debate between amillienial, Pre-mill and post-mill?

Sword legion :
thenumberone : (also summoning you since you were discussing with Sword about this)

Sword, that is an incorrect understanding of God's omniscience. God knows the future as well, whether if it is through God's plan or by our own actions and thoughts. That is the whole point about prophesies is that God knows what will happen in the future and was able to reveal to us what are things to expect in the future.

An example of this is when Jesus told Peter that by the rooster's third crow, he will deny Christ 3 times. Jesus straight up told him what will happen in the future, and Peter in knowing this, has the ability to not do what he did just by making sure that he doesn't deny Christ, but in the end, he still did by his own actions. God didn't do anything to influence him to deny Christ, so he did it at his own will. 

The ultimate example that God knows the future would be the fact that He proclaims a time that evil will be defeated.

God knows all things past, present and future, and knows what your actions will cause, whether if it is by your own decision or due to God.
SoL@R : So, any opinion on the debate between amillienial, Pre-mill and post-mill?

Sword legion :
thenumberone : (also summoning you since you were discussing with Sword about this)

Sword, that is an incorrect understanding of God's omniscience. God knows the future as well, whether if it is through God's plan or by our own actions and thoughts. That is the whole point about prophesies is that God knows what will happen in the future and was able to reveal to us what are things to expect in the future.

An example of this is when Jesus told Peter that by the rooster's third crow, he will deny Christ 3 times. Jesus straight up told him what will happen in the future, and Peter in knowing this, has the ability to not do what he did just by making sure that he doesn't deny Christ, but in the end, he still did by his own actions. God didn't do anything to influence him to deny Christ, so he did it at his own will. 

The ultimate example that God knows the future would be the fact that He proclaims a time that evil will be defeated.

God knows all things past, present and future, and knows what your actions will cause, whether if it is by your own decision or due to God.
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thenumberone :

"With anything, i am sceptical without proof, not just religion. The idea that i would lower my requirements for something that would fundamentaly change my life is illogical."

I'm a skeptical person too. I don't just accept things as fact. However, what I feel living inside me can't be denied. The proof? He is living in me, I am changed. I look around, everything I see screams "I am created!" Does that mean creation is talking to me? No! You mentioned variables, and how impossible those examples are. Well, they're not impossible if all this was created to work as it does. I mean, really, what proof is there that God doesn't exist? "There's so much pain and sadness in the world, how could a loving God let that happen?" Because God isn't just love. He's just. In case you're not familiar with how things work, every action has a reaction. What we do has consequences. If God worked everything so our lives would be perfect, we wouldn't be able to make our own choices. We'd be, basically, robots. Think about it. If God made everything fine and dandy, then He Himself would be un-just. Since God is just, He must punish us for our sins. While Jesus' work on the cross has saved us from eternal judgment, we will still have consequences for our actions here on earth. I want to ask you this question while assuming Christianity is false. If we, as Christians (remember, pretending Christianity is a lie), are getting cussed out, shunned, spit on, and scorned for our faith; why wouldn't we give it up? Why would we stick to it for so many years? What's the point? I wouldn't want to follow a lie, if it meant getting this treatment. However, because we're not following a random dude who pretended to be God, we stick to the truth. We believe in God because He lives in us.

Let me leave you with this. http://i.imgur.com/diI5v.jpg
thenumberone :

"With anything, i am sceptical without proof, not just religion. The idea that i would lower my requirements for something that would fundamentaly change my life is illogical."

I'm a skeptical person too. I don't just accept things as fact. However, what I feel living inside me can't be denied. The proof? He is living in me, I am changed. I look around, everything I see screams "I am created!" Does that mean creation is talking to me? No! You mentioned variables, and how impossible those examples are. Well, they're not impossible if all this was created to work as it does. I mean, really, what proof is there that God doesn't exist? "There's so much pain and sadness in the world, how could a loving God let that happen?" Because God isn't just love. He's just. In case you're not familiar with how things work, every action has a reaction. What we do has consequences. If God worked everything so our lives would be perfect, we wouldn't be able to make our own choices. We'd be, basically, robots. Think about it. If God made everything fine and dandy, then He Himself would be un-just. Since God is just, He must punish us for our sins. While Jesus' work on the cross has saved us from eternal judgment, we will still have consequences for our actions here on earth. I want to ask you this question while assuming Christianity is false. If we, as Christians (remember, pretending Christianity is a lie), are getting cussed out, shunned, spit on, and scorned for our faith; why wouldn't we give it up? Why would we stick to it for so many years? What's the point? I wouldn't want to follow a lie, if it meant getting this treatment. However, because we're not following a random dude who pretended to be God, we stick to the truth. We believe in God because He lives in us.

Let me leave you with this. http://i.imgur.com/diI5v.jpg
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mrfe :
You may feel so but that is not an acceptable level to quantify evidence, as any scienrist would tell you.
So you think that africans dying like flies is just?
As for why you stick with faith, muslim, jews, hindus, sikhs, they too stick with it. Are they all true?

Also that image is derogatory. 
On top of making little sense. 
mrfe :
You may feel so but that is not an acceptable level to quantify evidence, as any scienrist would tell you.
So you think that africans dying like flies is just?
As for why you stick with faith, muslim, jews, hindus, sikhs, they too stick with it. Are they all true?

Also that image is derogatory. 
On top of making little sense. 
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sonicmcmuffin :  "i want to enjoy my time on this planet and if that means i have to suffer immensely after i die then i have no problems with that..."

A mighty statement.  You do understand the meaning of the word "eternity"?  Let me ask you something -  A doctor offers you a million bucks to do an experimental eye transplant, the catch is your eye obviously needs to be removed and it will be replaced with a glass eye.  It will look  just as good as the real eye, but you of course won't be able to see through it.  You will be permanently blind in one eye.  Would you sell your eye for a million dollars, cash, tax free?  Here's the crunch, to do the transplant properly, the doctor actually needs fresh, matching pair of eyes.  He is willing to pay you 10 million dollars for each eye.  Wow, 20 million dollars! Now you can see the world! Nope.  Sorry.  You won't see a thing.  You'll live a life in total darkness.  I can almost guarantee you, you won't sell your eyes for 50, 70 or even 100 million dollars.  If your eyes are so precious to you, how much more precious is your soul?  If all the things in this world that you and me should prioritize, it's not your health or your eyes.  It's the eternal salvation of your soul.  Jesus said, "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" (Mark 8:36).



Sword legion :  "We can say that God is all -knowing, but not of the future. Or else we make a category mistake. Did that make sense?"

play4fun has already answered this,so I'll just be adding to the comments already made.  I'm saying this with sincerity - if you are saying that God is all-knowing and does not know the future, then you and I are not worshiping the same God.  God will be contradicting Himself.  There is only one God - God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, God of the Bible.  He has got many attributes, but I'll highlight 3.  

-Omnipotence - God has unlimited power to accomplish anything that can be accomplished (Reference texts:  Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:11; Jeremiah 32:17)

-Omnipresence - God is everywhere present in the fullness of His being.  By being present in ALL locations in the WHOLE of His being means that there is no place we can go where He is not present  (Reference texts:  Job 11:7-9; Jeremiah 23:23-24; Psalm 139:7-10)

-Omniscience - God knows all that there is to know.  God does not need to study or learn, for one cannot increase a knowledge that is already insurmountable. Probability also does not exist for God; all things either are or are not in His perspective. There is no maybe.  There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible that God has revealed to His prophets that has been fulfilled in detail.  The only way this is possible is because He can see the future and is of course, all-knowing.  (Reference texts:  Romans 11:33; Hebrews 4:13; Acts 15:18)



thenumberone :  I'll reply to your post separately, cause it's probably going to get long again  Just quickly and sorry if this is a stupid question, but I saw there at the end of your post you said that you are debating these points because you are interested in my answers.  You have made it clear that you're not a Christian and you don't believe in God - I'm asking this sincerely -so why are you here taking the time to read these kinds of posts and taking the time to reply to it when these things doesn't really matter to you?  



play4fun :

amillennial - Relies heavily upon two-age theology:  "The branch of theological study focusing particularly upon the already/not yet eschatology presented in scripture (e.g., the fact that we are already raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenlies (Eph. 2:6), but still await bodily resurrection (1 Cor. 15:50ff); or that we are already glorified (Rom. 8:30), but glorification is the last stage of our salvation and still awaiting consummation)."  I must have missed something huge somewhere, because looking at my body right now, it doesn't seem that "glorified" ;p 



premillenial - Unless I misunderstand this, this is what makes the most sense to me, biblically and I suppose because of its literal interpretation.  Rapture, Tribulation, Jesus comes down to earth, physically which marks the beginning of His 1000 year reign on earth - in that order.



postmillenial - This goes hand in hand with a partial-preterist interpretation of Revelation, which I do not hold to.



Ultimately we should just look to Jesus and our relationship with Him and what He wants for our lives.  All the differences will fade away if everyone could have this view
sonicmcmuffin :  "i want to enjoy my time on this planet and if that means i have to suffer immensely after i die then i have no problems with that..."

A mighty statement.  You do understand the meaning of the word "eternity"?  Let me ask you something -  A doctor offers you a million bucks to do an experimental eye transplant, the catch is your eye obviously needs to be removed and it will be replaced with a glass eye.  It will look  just as good as the real eye, but you of course won't be able to see through it.  You will be permanently blind in one eye.  Would you sell your eye for a million dollars, cash, tax free?  Here's the crunch, to do the transplant properly, the doctor actually needs fresh, matching pair of eyes.  He is willing to pay you 10 million dollars for each eye.  Wow, 20 million dollars! Now you can see the world! Nope.  Sorry.  You won't see a thing.  You'll live a life in total darkness.  I can almost guarantee you, you won't sell your eyes for 50, 70 or even 100 million dollars.  If your eyes are so precious to you, how much more precious is your soul?  If all the things in this world that you and me should prioritize, it's not your health or your eyes.  It's the eternal salvation of your soul.  Jesus said, "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" (Mark 8:36).



Sword legion :  "We can say that God is all -knowing, but not of the future. Or else we make a category mistake. Did that make sense?"

play4fun has already answered this,so I'll just be adding to the comments already made.  I'm saying this with sincerity - if you are saying that God is all-knowing and does not know the future, then you and I are not worshiping the same God.  God will be contradicting Himself.  There is only one God - God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac, God of the Bible.  He has got many attributes, but I'll highlight 3.  

-Omnipotence - God has unlimited power to accomplish anything that can be accomplished (Reference texts:  Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:11; Jeremiah 32:17)

-Omnipresence - God is everywhere present in the fullness of His being.  By being present in ALL locations in the WHOLE of His being means that there is no place we can go where He is not present  (Reference texts:  Job 11:7-9; Jeremiah 23:23-24; Psalm 139:7-10)

-Omniscience - God knows all that there is to know.  God does not need to study or learn, for one cannot increase a knowledge that is already insurmountable. Probability also does not exist for God; all things either are or are not in His perspective. There is no maybe.  There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible that God has revealed to His prophets that has been fulfilled in detail.  The only way this is possible is because He can see the future and is of course, all-knowing.  (Reference texts:  Romans 11:33; Hebrews 4:13; Acts 15:18)



thenumberone :  I'll reply to your post separately, cause it's probably going to get long again  Just quickly and sorry if this is a stupid question, but I saw there at the end of your post you said that you are debating these points because you are interested in my answers.  You have made it clear that you're not a Christian and you don't believe in God - I'm asking this sincerely -so why are you here taking the time to read these kinds of posts and taking the time to reply to it when these things doesn't really matter to you?  



play4fun :

amillennial - Relies heavily upon two-age theology:  "The branch of theological study focusing particularly upon the already/not yet eschatology presented in scripture (e.g., the fact that we are already raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenlies (Eph. 2:6), but still await bodily resurrection (1 Cor. 15:50ff); or that we are already glorified (Rom. 8:30), but glorification is the last stage of our salvation and still awaiting consummation)."  I must have missed something huge somewhere, because looking at my body right now, it doesn't seem that "glorified" ;p 



premillenial - Unless I misunderstand this, this is what makes the most sense to me, biblically and I suppose because of its literal interpretation.  Rapture, Tribulation, Jesus comes down to earth, physically which marks the beginning of His 1000 year reign on earth - in that order.



postmillenial - This goes hand in hand with a partial-preterist interpretation of Revelation, which I do not hold to.



Ultimately we should just look to Jesus and our relationship with Him and what He wants for our lives.  All the differences will fade away if everyone could have this view
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SoL@R :
I enjoy a well thought out debate? Usually i slink off quite quickly in christian ones because people dont make an effort, but im still enjoying this one. Thats about all really. Hence why i pretty much stalk the debate forums.

SoL@R :
I enjoy a well thought out debate? Usually i slink off quite quickly in christian ones because people dont make an effort, but im still enjoying this one. Thats about all really. Hence why i pretty much stalk the debate forums.

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So essentially you are saying that one must not enjoy themselves one must devote their life to some unknown being... Also there's a difference between simply wanting to enjoy life and doing something for an easier life... no matter how you word it... 

Do i believe in god and the bible nope... if anything i see it as a bunch of fairy tales with the threat of if you don't believe this, you will suffer for all eternity. Kinda like spam on the internet really.





So essentially you are saying that one must not enjoy themselves one must devote their life to some unknown being... Also there's a difference between simply wanting to enjoy life and doing something for an easier life... no matter how you word it... 

Do i believe in god and the bible nope... if anything i see it as a bunch of fairy tales with the threat of if you don't believe this, you will suffer for all eternity. Kinda like spam on the internet really.





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SoL@R:
play4fun :

Ok, to understand why I believe what I believe, I may have to explain a lot regarding my beliefs about time and what time really is.
But first I will tell you what I believe a re the consequences of believing that "God knows exactly what I will do"

All matter in the universe follows basic rules, including brains which operate on intellect.
If God knew everything that would happen, from the beginning of time, Then why did he create humans who would eventually
go to hell? To say that God knows the future perfectly means that he knew that some of us would go to hell for sure.
So why didn't he do something about it? people might answer free will, but, God made us. He knew what we would choose with our
"free will". Quite bluntly, we are like dominoes, and God pushed the first one. some of us landed in the lava. God is responsible for
our damnation (not a cuss word used in this tense. . . uhh, right?) because He programmed us to do it, from the very beginning.

Or you could believe that humans have a something different about them. A spirit capable of
real free will. A will
that allows us to make real decisions based not just on intellect and environment.
Basically, my definition of all-knowing is different from yours. As for the Bible references, I really appreciate them,
I like it when someone actually quotes the Bible to reinforce their belief.
In the verses I didn't see anything in them against my beliefs. While we are spiritual beings, God can look at our mechanical
side make very accurate predictions, or even warns us of what our nature might make us do. . . unless we resist it.

Now, regarding my belief of time.

Time is an illusion.

it is a unit of measurement like an inch.

Do inches exist in reality?

No, they are a product in our mind, we made them up to help measure objects like a two by four.

We use time to measure how long it take an action to happen, or how long something lasts.

ie this two by four took five years to rot.


I do not believe in a continuing time stream or something like that, I certainly don't believe in a
time stream that can be traveled through any faster than we are traveling, or that can be traveled through backwards.

All that exists is matter and energy reacting in various ways.

The future has not happened yet.

Now, if time does not exist, how do we know what will happen in the future?
We can analyze the current state of something and it's circumstances to figure out what might happen next.
However, we don't have access to all the information that is going on into the world right now.

God, being all knowing, does.

God can predict animals action with 100% accuracy (unless you bring a soul into the equation) because an
animal's decisions come from instincts, environment, and basic intellect.

Humans and angels have free will and are able to operate on a spiritual level. the spirit is able to make unforseen decisions
even by God due to it being a quality of free will's nature.
SoL@R:
play4fun :

Ok, to understand why I believe what I believe, I may have to explain a lot regarding my beliefs about time and what time really is.
But first I will tell you what I believe a re the consequences of believing that "God knows exactly what I will do"

All matter in the universe follows basic rules, including brains which operate on intellect.
If God knew everything that would happen, from the beginning of time, Then why did he create humans who would eventually
go to hell? To say that God knows the future perfectly means that he knew that some of us would go to hell for sure.
So why didn't he do something about it? people might answer free will, but, God made us. He knew what we would choose with our
"free will". Quite bluntly, we are like dominoes, and God pushed the first one. some of us landed in the lava. God is responsible for
our damnation (not a cuss word used in this tense. . . uhh, right?) because He programmed us to do it, from the very beginning.

Or you could believe that humans have a something different about them. A spirit capable of
real free will. A will
that allows us to make real decisions based not just on intellect and environment.
Basically, my definition of all-knowing is different from yours. As for the Bible references, I really appreciate them,
I like it when someone actually quotes the Bible to reinforce their belief.
In the verses I didn't see anything in them against my beliefs. While we are spiritual beings, God can look at our mechanical
side make very accurate predictions, or even warns us of what our nature might make us do. . . unless we resist it.

Now, regarding my belief of time.

Time is an illusion.

it is a unit of measurement like an inch.

Do inches exist in reality?

No, they are a product in our mind, we made them up to help measure objects like a two by four.

We use time to measure how long it take an action to happen, or how long something lasts.

ie this two by four took five years to rot.


I do not believe in a continuing time stream or something like that, I certainly don't believe in a
time stream that can be traveled through any faster than we are traveling, or that can be traveled through backwards.

All that exists is matter and energy reacting in various ways.

The future has not happened yet.

Now, if time does not exist, how do we know what will happen in the future?
We can analyze the current state of something and it's circumstances to figure out what might happen next.
However, we don't have access to all the information that is going on into the world right now.

God, being all knowing, does.

God can predict animals action with 100% accuracy (unless you bring a soul into the equation) because an
animal's decisions come from instincts, environment, and basic intellect.

Humans and angels have free will and are able to operate on a spiritual level. the spirit is able to make unforseen decisions
even by God due to it being a quality of free will's nature.
Trusted Member
Dark knight of the blackened sun. I am Sword Legion, one of many. My mask is thick, and my armor is strong. All the more necessary in a world such as this. . .


Affected by 'Laziness Syndrome'

Registered: 09-27-12
Location: Faxanadu
Last Post: 988 days
Last Active: 426 days

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