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Faith vs. Reason

 

05-25-13 05:00 PM
play4fun is Offline
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Brigand : The quotation that I gave you doesn't describe the Crucifixion, but referred back to it when trying to describe who these Christians are. He was just stating it as a true event that actually happened. Sadly, we don't have the Annals during the time period when Jesus existed, but at the same time, since Tacitus focused more on writing about the Roman empire, and the Romans had little involvement to the events of Jesus until the crucifixion. Josephus have a more detailed account since he focused on writing about the history of the Jews during that time period.
Brigand : The quotation that I gave you doesn't describe the Crucifixion, but referred back to it when trying to describe who these Christians are. He was just stating it as a true event that actually happened. Sadly, we don't have the Annals during the time period when Jesus existed, but at the same time, since Tacitus focused more on writing about the Roman empire, and the Romans had little involvement to the events of Jesus until the crucifixion. Josephus have a more detailed account since he focused on writing about the history of the Jews during that time period.
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05-27-13 04:19 AM
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Let's just reign in the pony a bit, shall we?  I think we've digressed slightly from the topic.  I can't turn my back for a week and we're going off the rails ;p

@orionfoxgibson: I am saying this tongue in cheek  You should become a politician man.  Half the time I have no idea what you're saying and if you're serious or not.  I'm really glad though that I could "remind" you of your faith.  By that I hope you mean your faith in Christ, because people these days put their faith in many things.  Now stop reading and go to church already! 

invinible's statement, "Faith without reason is blind faith and would be a blasphemy against God." and play4fun's statement, "Faith and reason are cooperative to one another. We believe in a reasonable faith." sums it up nicely and the rest of play4fun's post explains it clearly.  I'll just be adding to things already said really.

The Bible indeed does not promote a belief in the irrational or any type of unwarranted "blind faith".  Some say, "Faith takes over where reason leaves off."  If you see it this way, then rationality is seen as a bridge that reaches only a part of the way over a chasm and faith is needed to complete the bridge to reach the other side.  People who see it this way say that Christianity cannot be proven.  We can only reason the way to God up to a point and then we must "make a leap of faith" in order to say that Jesus is Lord.  This is not what God's Word teaches about faith.
[play4fun] has already quoted Hebrews 11:1 in his first post, so scroll back to that and read it again  So as already stated, biblical faith is not blind, but it is strongly warranted confidence.  The phrase "hoped for" does not imply wishful thinking, like "I hope we'll have nice weather next week".  The Greek word of that phrase indicates a confident expectation.  The kind of confidence we have when we have a good reason to believe something.  Biblical faith is having confidence in something you have not experienced with your senses.  It is the act of believing in something unseen for which we do have a good reason.  God has proven many times in the bible that He keeps His promises.  When we believe that God will keep a promise, this constitutes faith, because we cannot "see" it and yet we have good reason for it.

As there are misunderstandings of faith, so there are misunderstandings of reason.  God has given us reason as a tool that allows us to draw conclusions and inferences from other information (as I am doing right now ).  Reason is a very important part of the Christian life.  God tells us to reason, " 'Come now, and let us reason together,' Says the Lord..." - Isaiah 1:18.  The apostle Paul also used reason as a tool, "Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there." - Acts 17:17.  I could not know that I am saved apart from using reason. The Bible says, "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9).  The Bible doesn't say anywhere, "SoL@R is saved" (although it would've been awesome ).  I have genuinely acknowledged that Jesus is Lord and I believe that God raised Him from the dead, therefore, I am saved.  I must use logical reasoning to draw this conclusion.  This is the kind of reasoning God expects us to use.  We are to reason from the principles of God's Word.  

When you try and frame your views of the world, disregarding God's Word, reason is misused.  Reason is then treated as either its own ultimate standard (replacement of God's Word) or it's tossed aside as irrelevant to faith.  Neither of these is biblical.  We are never to attempt to reason in opposition to the Word of God.  It cannot be treated as a mere hypothesis that is subject to our limited, fallible understanding of the universe.  Sorry ladies ;p, but Eve made that mistake in the Garden of Eden when she attempted to use her mind and senses to judge God's Word (Genesis 3:6).  She was trying to use a fallible standard to judge an infallible one.  Reason should never be used in such an absurd and sinful way.  We are supposed to reason from God's Word, taking it as the Christian's ultimate, unquestionable starting point.  Reason is also not a substitute for God - it's a gift from God.  We shouldn't reject reason.  God is rational and we should be too:  "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children." - Ephesians 5:1.  We are commanded to seek wisdom and understanding: "Get wisdom! Get understanding! Do not forget, nor turn away from the words of my mouth.";  "Wisdom is the principal thing; Therefore get wisdom. And in all your getting, get understanding." - Proverbs 4:5, 7
God wants us as Christians to use our minds that He has given us, but He wants us to use it properly in a way that is honoring to Him.  

So, faith is a prerequisite for reason.  In order to reason about anything, we must have faith that there are laws of logic which correctly prescribe the correct chain of reasoning.  Since laws of logic cannot be observed with the senses, our confidence in them is a type of faith.  For the Christian it is a reasonable, justified faith.  
Let's just reign in the pony a bit, shall we?  I think we've digressed slightly from the topic.  I can't turn my back for a week and we're going off the rails ;p

@orionfoxgibson: I am saying this tongue in cheek  You should become a politician man.  Half the time I have no idea what you're saying and if you're serious or not.  I'm really glad though that I could "remind" you of your faith.  By that I hope you mean your faith in Christ, because people these days put their faith in many things.  Now stop reading and go to church already! 

invinible's statement, "Faith without reason is blind faith and would be a blasphemy against God." and play4fun's statement, "Faith and reason are cooperative to one another. We believe in a reasonable faith." sums it up nicely and the rest of play4fun's post explains it clearly.  I'll just be adding to things already said really.

The Bible indeed does not promote a belief in the irrational or any type of unwarranted "blind faith".  Some say, "Faith takes over where reason leaves off."  If you see it this way, then rationality is seen as a bridge that reaches only a part of the way over a chasm and faith is needed to complete the bridge to reach the other side.  People who see it this way say that Christianity cannot be proven.  We can only reason the way to God up to a point and then we must "make a leap of faith" in order to say that Jesus is Lord.  This is not what God's Word teaches about faith.
[play4fun] has already quoted Hebrews 11:1 in his first post, so scroll back to that and read it again  So as already stated, biblical faith is not blind, but it is strongly warranted confidence.  The phrase "hoped for" does not imply wishful thinking, like "I hope we'll have nice weather next week".  The Greek word of that phrase indicates a confident expectation.  The kind of confidence we have when we have a good reason to believe something.  Biblical faith is having confidence in something you have not experienced with your senses.  It is the act of believing in something unseen for which we do have a good reason.  God has proven many times in the bible that He keeps His promises.  When we believe that God will keep a promise, this constitutes faith, because we cannot "see" it and yet we have good reason for it.

As there are misunderstandings of faith, so there are misunderstandings of reason.  God has given us reason as a tool that allows us to draw conclusions and inferences from other information (as I am doing right now ).  Reason is a very important part of the Christian life.  God tells us to reason, " 'Come now, and let us reason together,' Says the Lord..." - Isaiah 1:18.  The apostle Paul also used reason as a tool, "Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there." - Acts 17:17.  I could not know that I am saved apart from using reason. The Bible says, "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9).  The Bible doesn't say anywhere, "SoL@R is saved" (although it would've been awesome ).  I have genuinely acknowledged that Jesus is Lord and I believe that God raised Him from the dead, therefore, I am saved.  I must use logical reasoning to draw this conclusion.  This is the kind of reasoning God expects us to use.  We are to reason from the principles of God's Word.  

When you try and frame your views of the world, disregarding God's Word, reason is misused.  Reason is then treated as either its own ultimate standard (replacement of God's Word) or it's tossed aside as irrelevant to faith.  Neither of these is biblical.  We are never to attempt to reason in opposition to the Word of God.  It cannot be treated as a mere hypothesis that is subject to our limited, fallible understanding of the universe.  Sorry ladies ;p, but Eve made that mistake in the Garden of Eden when she attempted to use her mind and senses to judge God's Word (Genesis 3:6).  She was trying to use a fallible standard to judge an infallible one.  Reason should never be used in such an absurd and sinful way.  We are supposed to reason from God's Word, taking it as the Christian's ultimate, unquestionable starting point.  Reason is also not a substitute for God - it's a gift from God.  We shouldn't reject reason.  God is rational and we should be too:  "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children." - Ephesians 5:1.  We are commanded to seek wisdom and understanding: "Get wisdom! Get understanding! Do not forget, nor turn away from the words of my mouth.";  "Wisdom is the principal thing; Therefore get wisdom. And in all your getting, get understanding." - Proverbs 4:5, 7
God wants us as Christians to use our minds that He has given us, but He wants us to use it properly in a way that is honoring to Him.  

So, faith is a prerequisite for reason.  In order to reason about anything, we must have faith that there are laws of logic which correctly prescribe the correct chain of reasoning.  Since laws of logic cannot be observed with the senses, our confidence in them is a type of faith.  For the Christian it is a reasonable, justified faith.  
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05-28-13 08:03 AM
thenumberone is Offline
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play4fun :
my point was that there are a ton of primary sources for caesar, as in people who were there, in his court, serving under his leadership (when he was a general), fighting for him after his crowning etc.
most references to jesus ( primary ) ate in the bible.
when validating things, you must cross analyse. one book is not enough.
of course people reference jesus outside the bible, but the vast majority are secondary sources, and hence what they say cannot be rubustly declared fact.
hence, faith.
considerations for texts:

author
purpose
exageration?
accuracy (cross analysis with proven facts)
content
history (is this supported by other texts, peoples, what has the authors past works entailed)

bible:
author:several, evidence they wrote or said what is claimed:varies by person

purpose:conversion to christ. cannot be considered un biased, ergo needs conjunctive support for damning argument

exageration: by science, history, general logic, would be seen as heavily exagerated. some events unsupported, others far more minor than statef in bible.

accuracy: highly, highly debateable.

content:
contains many contradictions. men with long hair are an abomination, a man with short hair is an affront to god etc

history: very sketchy, im not aware of anyone particularly significant outside christianity that has produced tangible evidence of the bible.
evidence of some things such as floods and parting the sea etc, however not as stated in the bible.

if this was a text on a scientific theory no one would accept it.
it cant be out and out disproven, neither is it particularly well proven.

hence, faith.

edit I wasnt saying jesus didnt exist. I was arguing it, and the bible, are prinarily faith based.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if he was real, and crucified. but resurrection and after I dont believe
play4fun :
my point was that there are a ton of primary sources for caesar, as in people who were there, in his court, serving under his leadership (when he was a general), fighting for him after his crowning etc.
most references to jesus ( primary ) ate in the bible.
when validating things, you must cross analyse. one book is not enough.
of course people reference jesus outside the bible, but the vast majority are secondary sources, and hence what they say cannot be rubustly declared fact.
hence, faith.
considerations for texts:

author
purpose
exageration?
accuracy (cross analysis with proven facts)
content
history (is this supported by other texts, peoples, what has the authors past works entailed)

bible:
author:several, evidence they wrote or said what is claimed:varies by person

purpose:conversion to christ. cannot be considered un biased, ergo needs conjunctive support for damning argument

exageration: by science, history, general logic, would be seen as heavily exagerated. some events unsupported, others far more minor than statef in bible.

accuracy: highly, highly debateable.

content:
contains many contradictions. men with long hair are an abomination, a man with short hair is an affront to god etc

history: very sketchy, im not aware of anyone particularly significant outside christianity that has produced tangible evidence of the bible.
evidence of some things such as floods and parting the sea etc, however not as stated in the bible.

if this was a text on a scientific theory no one would accept it.
it cant be out and out disproven, neither is it particularly well proven.

hence, faith.

edit I wasnt saying jesus didnt exist. I was arguing it, and the bible, are prinarily faith based.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if he was real, and crucified. but resurrection and after I dont believe
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(edited by thenumberone on 05-28-13 08:06 AM)    

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