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gay marriage
09-03-12 02:08 PM
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Izziah : Agreed. However, what bothers me is that pretty much any politician who votes against this is making their vote based on their religious belief. This is supposed to be a government that separates church and state, but this is a prime example of how it does not do that. Except for reasons based on religious belief, there is no legitimate reason to vote against it. It just bugs me because not everyone is of a religion that is opposed to gay marriage, and our government has time and time again forced their religion on the whole country when they vote down gay marriage. Being a religious person myself, this never fails to frustrate me to no end. |
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(edited by rcarter2 on 09-03-12 02:10 PM)
09-03-12 02:46 PM
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rcarter2 : And I agree right back at you . It is unfortunate that it has to be this way, but I can think of no better system. If all politicians stayed strictly objective, then we would either be the most efficient system in human history or nothing would be decided at all. We were created to disagree. However, the other point that I would like to make is that the government is making decisions over gay marriage, something that was originally intended to be a religious thing(institution? No idea how to describe marriage). If one thinks about marriage in any sense other than a religious one, you are doing it an injustice. By government decree, people in certain states can be legally married (at least for the time being), but that doesn't mean that they are legitimately married. That power rests solely in the Church (or temple or whatever). My point is: yes, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, and yes, that separation fails at times like these. But if the people are calling for a decision to be made on topics such as marriage, then sometimes the government has to go back on its word. |
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09-03-12 03:00 PM
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Izziah : True. That is why I would never say that churches should be required to marry a gay couple. Fact is, that is where the churches have the biggest quarrel with this. There is a stipulation that this is some attack on the churches by forcing them to let gay marriage happen under their approval. I say that if a church does not want to marry a gay couple within their doors, that is their right to do so as they have freedom of religion. But nowadays, you don't need churches to be legally married. I think that a gay couple should be allowed to be legally married in the eyes of their state. That way, no churches are oppressed for their belief and gay couples have the political equality they lawfully deserve. |
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09-03-12 03:01 PM
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If someone loves another so much as to make an eternal vow of love, then does the gender of the two matter? I think not. Love is a precious thing, and should not be oppressed, no matter what shape or form it takes. If someone loves another so much as to make an eternal vow of love, then does the gender of the two matter? I think not. Love is a precious thing, and should not be oppressed, no matter what shape or form it takes. |
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09-03-12 05:30 PM
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rcarter2 : And that is where our discussion draws to a close, as I have nothing more to add to your ideas. I agree with you fully. The government should not force churches to allow marriage any more than they'd force a newspaper to stop printing, or a hospital to offer abortions (I suppose I shouldn't say that because that's another risky topic, but you get the idea). I enjoyed our discussion. We should have another one soon . See you around. |
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09-03-12 06:42 PM
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09-03-12 06:57 PM
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rcarter2 :
Theyre changing it here in scotland but the churches are still moaning despite being assured its not mandatory for them to conduct it. Clearly theyre very insecure if they think gays being married devalues there marriage. The catholic bishops are kicking up the bigges storm. Call me old fashioned but i dont really think that the matter of sex in law should be influenced by a group thats forbiden to have any. Nothing changes in marriage, if they have an issue with the mariage i can only assume they have a problem with gays, in which case theres plenty hate groups for them to join, like the british nationalist party or the neo nazis. Incidentaly, by your proposal to allow marriage by state i assume you mean if no church will marry them? Because thats the general point, most gays arent that concerned about being married, they just dont want to contribute equaly yet be treated as less. Kind of like the retarded seperate but equal laws they used to have. Theyre changing it here in scotland but the churches are still moaning despite being assured its not mandatory for them to conduct it. Clearly theyre very insecure if they think gays being married devalues there marriage. The catholic bishops are kicking up the bigges storm. Call me old fashioned but i dont really think that the matter of sex in law should be influenced by a group thats forbiden to have any. Nothing changes in marriage, if they have an issue with the mariage i can only assume they have a problem with gays, in which case theres plenty hate groups for them to join, like the british nationalist party or the neo nazis. Incidentaly, by your proposal to allow marriage by state i assume you mean if no church will marry them? Because thats the general point, most gays arent that concerned about being married, they just dont want to contribute equaly yet be treated as less. Kind of like the retarded seperate but equal laws they used to have. |
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09-03-12 07:17 PM
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thenumberone : That isn't what I mean, but the confusion might be because the marriage process might be different here than it is there. But I might be wrong on that. Here, the marriage process isn't really a religious one unless you choose for it to be. A church does not even have to be involved with your marriage. Even if you did do it through the church, you aren't officially married in the eyes of the government until you go to a court house, get a marriage license (which you must have 2 witnesses sign along with you). Often, people who don't want to have a wedding ceremony at all just go to the court house and get their marriage license to be legally married here. The problem is, gay couples are not even allowed to do that. So in my proposal, it isn't a matter of they can do it through the state if no church will marry them. A heterosexual couple does not need a church to marry them to be legally married. The church thing here is more of whether or not you want the church to recognize your marriage, but that has nothing to do with being legally married. It's more of a personal preference. So I see absolutely no reason why a gay couple here is not able to be legally married when being legally married here has absolutely nothing to do with the church. That is why it is frustrating when politicians continuously vote down gay marriage based on their personal religious belief when from a legal standpoint, this isn't a religious issue. |
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(edited by rcarter2 on 09-03-12 07:17 PM)
09-04-12 05:00 AM
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09-04-12 05:22 PM
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thenumberone : Oh, of course. Just as long as no church is 'forced' to perform them. But if a church is fine with it, then awesome for them |
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10-03-12 07:06 PM
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Call me a hypocrate, but I dislike gay marriage. The idea of two guys getting married makes me sick to my stomache. Yet I signed a proposition to legalize gay marriage in my state (I won't say which ). The reason why is because I believe that my own prejudice doesn't give me the right to discrimminate. Call me a hypocrate, but I dislike gay marriage. The idea of two guys getting married makes me sick to my stomache. Yet I signed a proposition to legalize gay marriage in my state (I won't say which ). The reason why is because I believe that my own prejudice doesn't give me the right to discrimminate. |
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10-03-12 07:12 PM
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It does bother me a lot in my mind, but I won't stop it. People can do whatever they want in their lives. I will probably try to support it when I could legally vote. |
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10-05-12 08:07 PM
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Now I believe that what people wish to do with their lives in order to be happy that they should be allowed to do it. Obviously there are some things people should just morally not do like slaughter millions of people; but this is just not that type of situation. I think that I am not the final judge to humanity, but anyway my two uncles (well one is really my uncle and the other is now his husband/partner what have you) finally got married when my state legalized gay marriage. They weren't in your face; they had a lot of class about their choice in romantic gender. We shouldn't force people to live a certain way and be considered anything less than a hypocrite. Do not judge others, and to love all of God's creatures. I'd vote for it if it came up again. |
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10-05-12 08:14 PM
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Oldschool41 :
Mobouis1 : Y'know i have a totaly different reaction to gay marriage in that it dosent disgust me at all but theres nothing but respect you believe in allowing others there rights. More people need to think that way. Mobouis1 : Y'know i have a totaly different reaction to gay marriage in that it dosent disgust me at all but theres nothing but respect you believe in allowing others there rights. More people need to think that way. |
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10-05-12 08:20 PM
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thenumberone: I totally agree, but with all the church people saying that its immoral and sinful, it would take the United States Supreme Court to set any precident (which I hear the Court is going to finally take up the issue). Even thou the church people shouldn't complain as churchs are classified as a private institution, so if Gay Marriage is considered legal then it wouldn't effect them as the Church can deny allowing for Gay Marraige services as private are protected under the Freedom of Associate clause (see Boy Scouts of America vs Dale for more information.) thenumberone: I totally agree, but with all the church people saying that its immoral and sinful, it would take the United States Supreme Court to set any precident (which I hear the Court is going to finally take up the issue). Even thou the church people shouldn't complain as churchs are classified as a private institution, so if Gay Marriage is considered legal then it wouldn't effect them as the Church can deny allowing for Gay Marraige services as private are protected under the Freedom of Associate clause (see Boy Scouts of America vs Dale for more information.) |
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10-05-12 10:08 PM
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I don't agree with gay marriage its maybe because i see a lot of gay dudes that is always trying to talk to me. I also believe in the bible and i think some where in there it says gay marriage don't cut out for him. |
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MegaRevolution1 : Please show some respect to mr.keys for what he believes in. If he believes in the bible and that bible says that gay marraige is a sin; then that is what he believes. It should be the duty of those who say gay marraige should be legalized, then you should convince him with facts and storys of hardships that gay people expierenced growing up/being gay. You shouldn't insult the person by calling him ignorant and unintelligent for having an oppinion that is different then yours; that is how violence starts. mr.keys : I'm a little confused on the part where you mentioned that gays dude are talking to you. Did you mean that when you say that gay dudes talk to you; you mean that they are hitting on you? Cause there is nothing wrong if other dudes talking to you if they are not trying to hit on you. Either way I'll respect your opinion on your stance. MegaRevolution1 : Please show some respect to mr.keys for what he believes in. If he believes in the bible and that bible says that gay marraige is a sin; then that is what he believes. It should be the duty of those who say gay marraige should be legalized, then you should convince him with facts and storys of hardships that gay people expierenced growing up/being gay. You shouldn't insult the person by calling him ignorant and unintelligent for having an oppinion that is different then yours; that is how violence starts. mr.keys : I'm a little confused on the part where you mentioned that gays dude are talking to you. Did you mean that when you say that gay dudes talk to you; you mean that they are hitting on you? Cause there is nothing wrong if other dudes talking to you if they are not trying to hit on you. Either way I'll respect your opinion on your stance. |
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10-07-12 09:08 PM
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Oldschool41 : i don't think that Mega was insulting him for believing the Bible. I know Mega enough that she respects that of people. I think the thing she called ignorant and belligerent was "I don't agree with gay marriage. Maybe because I see a lot of gay dudes always trying to talk to me". (I cleaned up the grammar a bit). That really is ignorant and belligerent. It's fine if he is against it on a religious base, but the fact that gay people talk to him being any part of the reason for being against it is borderline bigotry. |
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10-07-12 09:37 PM
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I have always maintained that it's none of the law's business who married whom, as value judgments are not what the law is designed for.
A year ago I would've told you that nonetheless I find the practice of homosexual sexual activity (the act, not the thing itself: desire is involuntary and action isn't) to be immoral, and not primarily for religious reasons. It's none of my business, it won't make me hate you, but I didn't approve all the same. In fact if memory serves I thought the same thing when I was an atheist. Modern day society has absorbed the letter of the flower children's "do your own thing" attitude while cluelessly omitting the spirit. Nowadays it's *literally* "if it feels good, do it". Nobody sees anything wrong with anything that "doesn't hurt anyone" anymore. Such a simplistic concept of ethics makes me cringe. As a result of this attitude the biological aspect of a biological process is treated like a meaningless little technicality, virtually a trifle--never mind that it is the thing which begins life we're talking about here. I still think there's something to that in terms of a causal account for our current zeitgeist on the matter, and I maintain what I have said from the start--this is directed at none of you--that to call someone a bigot simply for disagreeing with your own opinion or philosophy is itself an act of bigotry. I don't call all non-Muslims Islamophobes, but anyone who disagrees with the practice of homosexuality is branded a "homophobe" just on general principles, for daring to hold a contrary viewpoint. This is revolting. All the same, I have begun to rethink my position on (the practice of) homosexuality itself. It occurred to me recently, kind of out of nowhere, that if gay sex is automatically wrong then so is adoption. *That's* based around a biological process too but the parent-child relationship can still be psychologically and spiritually legitimate nonetheless. So I suppose it's no different with gay couples. However, I still do not condone people who "switch"--people for whom homosexuality *is* a choice, because they've discovered it through "experimenting" and found that they prefer it. This, from the way Lot (P) talks in the Koran, appears to be the real vice. Your body is not a science lab. [EDIT: To put it less hastily, anyone who is honest with themselves shouldn't *have* to experiment and these people Lot (P) preached against were cheating on their *wives* just to experiment, which was just one of many vices listed in the text.] However, I will again stress that it's none of my business, that we all do wrong things, and that the law needs to butt out when it comes to these things. I have always maintained that it's none of the law's business who married whom, as value judgments are not what the law is designed for.
A year ago I would've told you that nonetheless I find the practice of homosexual sexual activity (the act, not the thing itself: desire is involuntary and action isn't) to be immoral, and not primarily for religious reasons. It's none of my business, it won't make me hate you, but I didn't approve all the same. In fact if memory serves I thought the same thing when I was an atheist. Modern day society has absorbed the letter of the flower children's "do your own thing" attitude while cluelessly omitting the spirit. Nowadays it's *literally* "if it feels good, do it". Nobody sees anything wrong with anything that "doesn't hurt anyone" anymore. Such a simplistic concept of ethics makes me cringe. As a result of this attitude the biological aspect of a biological process is treated like a meaningless little technicality, virtually a trifle--never mind that it is the thing which begins life we're talking about here. I still think there's something to that in terms of a causal account for our current zeitgeist on the matter, and I maintain what I have said from the start--this is directed at none of you--that to call someone a bigot simply for disagreeing with your own opinion or philosophy is itself an act of bigotry. I don't call all non-Muslims Islamophobes, but anyone who disagrees with the practice of homosexuality is branded a "homophobe" just on general principles, for daring to hold a contrary viewpoint. This is revolting. All the same, I have begun to rethink my position on (the practice of) homosexuality itself. It occurred to me recently, kind of out of nowhere, that if gay sex is automatically wrong then so is adoption. *That's* based around a biological process too but the parent-child relationship can still be psychologically and spiritually legitimate nonetheless. So I suppose it's no different with gay couples. However, I still do not condone people who "switch"--people for whom homosexuality *is* a choice, because they've discovered it through "experimenting" and found that they prefer it. This, from the way Lot (P) talks in the Koran, appears to be the real vice. Your body is not a science lab. [EDIT: To put it less hastily, anyone who is honest with themselves shouldn't *have* to experiment and these people Lot (P) preached against were cheating on their *wives* just to experiment, which was just one of many vices listed in the text.] However, I will again stress that it's none of my business, that we all do wrong things, and that the law needs to butt out when it comes to these things. |
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Affected by 'Laziness Syndrome'
Registered: 08-22-12
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Lurker on the Threshold of the Forum |
Affected by 'Laziness Syndrome'
Registered: 08-22-12
Last Post: 4130 days
Last Active: 177 days
(edited by RalphTheWonderLlama on 12-30-12 09:55 AM)
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