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  Views: 1,235,341,665     09-17-14 12:35 PM  

A serious question




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A serious question
- What would you do?
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Posted on 12-31-11 06:32 PM smotpoker86 is Offline     Post: 193 words - Spell checked - (ID: 521689) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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When I read and interpret the Bible I come to the conclusion that God's role in human being's lives is to guide them to live a 'good' life so they can get to heaven. Now this is fine and dandy, but I often feel like God isn't very effective at doing this if it is his prerogative and what he wants/expects of us humans. For being an all powerful entity I personally think he could do a better job at getting us to heaven or living a morally good life.

If I were God, I would make it impossible to sin. I would have made every human being with good morals and the inability to do anything that would disallow their entry into my kingdom. After all, I want to be with good humans who love me and each other, right? Above everything else, I would not use a few thousand year old collection of stories as the key that unlocks the door into my kingdom.

If you were God, how would you go about allowing entry into heaven? I'm sure most of you could do a better job than the current system.

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Posted on 12-31-11 07:24 PM rcarter2 is Offline     Post: 196 words - (ID: 521724) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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What you are saying over what you would do, you are taking away what is considered a gift from God. That gift is free will. If God just made it impossible for us to sin or made our morals for us, that would be basically controlling our future. If our free will was taken away like that and our actions were pretty much out of our control because our morals were set up for us, then there truly is no point in living here. 

As much as it pains me to quote this Bruce Almighty in a question such as this, it really works.

Bruce: How do you make so many people love you without affecting free will?
God: Good question. If you figure it out, let me know.

I honestly think that one small creation of God could possible figure out a way to do God's job better. So no matter how I would personally run it, I know that it would not be a better way. Otherwise, I would be claiming to have more knowledge and wisdom in my 24 years of life than one who has been around before the beginning of time.

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Posted on 12-31-11 07:38 PM smotpoker86 is Offline     Post: 221 words - (ID: 521727) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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rcarter2 : Yes I understand  the free will argument and knew it would eventually arise in this thread. However, my option to get rid of immorality does not necessarily get rid of the entirety of free will, just makes it so you couldn't choose to do bad things. There are all ready things we can't choose to do. I know this will sound kind of lame, but use free will to stop breathing (use any other instinctual aspect of our lives). You can't do it, so god has all ready limited free will. I am just saying he could limit it even further by not allowing us to sin.

If you think using ancient texts written by men and word of mouth is the best way to make people choose the right path than I don't think you are understanding my argument. For instance , god could reveal himself or talk to each one of us like he talks to people from the old testament. That would pretty much guarantee belief in him.

This isn't a question of God's will, it is a question of what you would do. Obviously God doesn't care if some of us burn for eternity because we don't believe ancient books , that is why I figure there is a better more effective way to do it.

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Posted on 01-01-12 12:21 AM rcarter2 is Offline     Post: 223 words - (ID: 521792) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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You use an example of trying to stop breathing and that you cannot do it. True, you eventually take a breath or you pass out and no longer have control. But if you really wanted to stop breathing, you could just as easily force your own head underwater and keep it there until you pass out there. So you still do have complete free will over things like that. If you truly want to, God is not forcing you to stop in anyway. The only thing that can stop you is yourself.

Also, God only revealed himself in the old testament when he deemed it necessary, not to make others believe him. Otherwise, there really aren't stories of people who actually saw him. They merely spoke to him in the way that people do today. That is what prayer is. The stories in the Bible simple tell the story of someone praying in a way that sounds like they were having face to face conversation. Simply revealing himself to everyone in some undeniable way rids your free will of faith because he would be making it to where people would have to believe in him.

I know it was a question about what I would do. My answer was that I would not take that responsibility because I know I am only human. 

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Posted on 01-01-12 03:19 AM JigSaw is Offline     Post: 303 words - (ID: 521845) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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I'm pretty sure if I were god people would volunteer to go to hell. But if I had to pick who goes where I would do the favor and send myself to hell for having too much power and authority over others.

Heaven reminds me of the white house, everyone is in suits and there are gates w/ secret service agents aka angels, following orders living in luxury.

Hell reminds me of jail, you disobey god aka government they send you away to hell for eternity.

I don't like the system so if I were god you wouldn't know I exist and you would not know where to find me Anyone trying to profit from me or start a religion on me is a scammer.

Heaven and hell is the smoke and mirrors to society, now wouldn't you want to escape that system and define option #3 for yourself? Or do you want to live in this 2 party system for life and beyond following someone elses law and order?

We already know what heaven and hell looks like so why not take the future in your own hands and become your own god? You don't need a following, mass amounts of money or power to be a god, all you need is a brain and ideas that are in opposition of those is absolute power.

If people don't like it screw them let them hang you on a cross and tell them to go to hell, metaphorically speaking Just don't live life being a puppet... do something useful in life with good morals and you will be your own god like Jesus was. People will follow you, write about you, worship you for eternity well after your dead. Let the living be the judge because in afterlife it doesn't matter.

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Posted on 01-03-12 08:00 PM darkreaver101 is Offline     Post: 179 words - Spell checked - (ID: 524026) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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First off, the angels in heaven worship God and they do that on their own without God telling them to. Secondly, you can't escape that "system" because when you die you are going to one or the other depending on whether or not you accept God's gift. Finally, it's not smoke and mirrors. There is plenty of proof of God's existence. Look at the complexity of Creation and tell me how else it came about. We have the Bible, which is loaded with proof. (If you want proof from the Bible that backs my belief, or answers from the Bible to any questions, then just ask. I am sure that I am not the only one that could do so)

On the subject at hand, I would do the exact same thing because there is no way I could improve on perfection. Sin is not allowed into Heaven, so I could not allow anyone except those who accept God's gift. The way that works is when we accept it puts our sins on Christ's sacrifice, hence making us perfect.

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Posted on 01-03-12 11:26 PM smotpoker86 is Offline     Post: 151 words - Spell checked - (ID: 524251) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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darkreaver101 : Thanks for the reply! I was pretty sure I would get mostly " I wouldn't do anything different" posts. I wanted to raise a few points and ask a couple questions. You said "There is plenty of proof of God's existence. Look at the complexity of Creation and tell me how else it came about." Unfortunately , not understanding something that is complex does not prove a God's existence. Also, if you believe God exists  because of written words in the Bible, then surely you believe in Allah and Mohammad because they are written about in the Quran , right?

I appreciate your honesty in your reply to the topic. I personally believe this world would be better off without evil or "sins". I can't understand how sins are perfection. Do you not think the same thing? Is there seriously nothing you would change if you had the power of God?

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Posted on 01-05-12 02:58 AM darkreaver101 is Offline     Post: 185 words - Spell checked - (ID: 524975) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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Whether or not I understand the complexity of creation does not change the fact that it was made by God. What I was trying to say was that creation is made so intricate that it had to have a Creator. It's not just that words were written in the Bible about God. My way of explaining this would be the Bible is written in a sense by God. God inspired all scripture (2 Timothy 3:16). The meaning of the word "inspired" in this case means "breathed". God "breathed his words into those who wrote the Bible. If you want proof that the Bible is real making this passage a truth and thus backing up the Bible in it's entirety, then research the Dead Sea Scrolls. Also, we brought sin upon ourselves. It is our fault that we fell from perfection, and so we must penalty of sin, physical and spiritual death (Romans 6:23) However, God sent his only son, who lived a perfect life and died on the cross, which, if we just accept God's gift, saves us from the penalty of sin (John 3:16).

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Posted on 01-05-12 02:48 PM AuraBlaze is Offline     Post: 541 words - (ID: 525190) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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I really don't see how I can answer this without giving an answer you were expecting and already got. I'll just try to give my own explanation of this as best as I can. I hope you don't mind me quoting sections of your initial post and answering them, smotpoker.

"I come to the conclusion that God's role in human being's lives is to guide them to live a 'good' life so they can get to heaven. Now this is fine and dandy, but I often feel like God isn't very effective at doing this if it is his prerogative and what he wants/expects of us humans."

God does what he can to guide us, but he can't prevent us from sinning. As the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." If I was God, why wouldn't I want to test my creation to see if they remain faithful to me? I wouldn't want a whole bunch of people spending eternity with me just because they merely existed, I would want them to prove that they wanted to follow me.

"I want to be with good humans who love me and each other, right?"

Why would someone, who had the power to create the entire universe, want me to be with them for eternity. Because I freely chose to love such a creator and do what He said --even when it meant doing what I didn't want to and vice verses. Also, we humans do not have an exact idea of what is considered "good." Although we do have a consensus on a few things, our diversity is too great to have everyone agree even on one simple thing. For example, last year I downloaded an emulator and some Nintendo DS ROMs. I believed it was "good." I didn't think there was anything wrong with someone like me doing this --because I knew I would never actually spend my money on those things. Recently, I had second thoughts on this and believed that the "good" choice was to not do any of this because I could buy the handheld and games if I tried. Which action was the sin and which on wasn't? It depends on who you ask, and that is why I believe that we all have sinned no matter what we believe. I'm a little weary of discussing this one aspect, so please ask me any questions you have; I'll answer them as soon as I can.

"I would not use a few thousand year old collection of stories as the key that unlocks the door into my kingdom."

Sorry, but it is not merely a collection of stories that save my life. It is the belief that God sent his only son (Jesus) to die for my sins, and also that he rose from the dead three days later --because I believe Jesus is fully man and fully God. The reason we have these stories is just like anything else from history. Write it down on paper --anything-- so that future generations know the truth.

I apologize for giving a round-about way of saying this, but I would do exactly as God has done to allow people into heaven.

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Posted on 01-06-12 03:03 AM smotpoker86 is Offline     Post: 1009 words - (ID: 525826) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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darkreaver101 :   Complexity isn't evidence of a God especially in a biblical context. What we do understand of our complex universe varies greatly from what God "breathed" into the Bible.  I am by no means an expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls, but to my knowledge all they prove is that yes indeed the Old Testament is old and that the Jewish Essene sect had some radical beliefs.

"we brought sin upon ourselves"
I don't think we brought sin upon ourselves. Here is my interpretation of how sins happened in the Bible , feel free to correct me. God creates a fruit that if eaten by humans will turn us into sinners. He then allows a snake to convince Adam and Eve to eat the fruit even after he forbid them to eat it. (Which if rcarter is reading this post, shows that we still had freewill before we were capable of being sinners) Then thousands of years later he sends his son to remove the unwanted sins from us humans.

So yes we are responsible for our sins if by "we" you mean our original two ancestors, who are likely fictional I might add. It is clear that God doesn't want us to be sinners as he forbid Adam and Eve from eating the fruit and then sent Jesus to try and fix his mistake. Now if I were God I would either : A) Not have created the forbidden fruit in the first place or B) Sent Jesus sooner when Adam and Eve were the only people in the world, ending our inherited sins from their roots.

AuraBlaze : I actually prefer when people use quotes when they reply, as it is easier to tell exactly which parts they are replying too. So good job lol.

" If I was God, why wouldn't I want to test my creation to see if they remain faithful to me? I wouldn't want a whole bunch of people spending eternity with me just because they merely existed, I would want them to prove that they wanted to follow me."

This is honestly the best (and my favourite) response I have gotten in this thread thus far. Although it is a couple sentences it seems like you have at least thought about what I was asking and aren't just simply stating that "God is perfect" even though you probably do believe he is perfect. I don't personally see it as a test as much as God rewarding us for ridding our corruption / punishing us for not ridding our corruption.


"Sorry, but it is not merely a collection of stories that save my life. It is the belief that God sent his only son (Jesus) to die for my sins, and also that he rose from the dead three days later --because I believe Jesus is fully man and fully God. The reason we have these stories is just like anything else from history. Write it down on paper --anything-- so that future generations know the truth."

Where does your belief in God come from? Unless you were around when Jesus was alive and crucified than your beliefs come from the Bible. Now what I was implying when I said "I would not use a few thousand year old collection of stories as the key that unlocks the door into my kingdom." is that there are better ways than word of mouth to convert people to Christianity.  Just because something is written down does not make it true. Similar to what I said to darkreaver, you must believe in Allah and Mohammad also, because those stories were written "so future generations know the truth".


rcarter2 : Sorry I didn't see your response or I would have replied sooner. Some how I knew you would say "if you really wanted to stop breathing, you could just as easily force your own head underwater and keep it there until you pass out there. " , well actually I thought you would say that you can just put a plastic bag over your head. Talking with darkreaver made me realize a good argument that I should have brought up originally. When God created Adam and Eve they had the ability of free will even though they were not sinners. It was their free will that made them sinners as they had the choice to eat the forbidden fruit. Therefor the relationship between having free will and being a sinner is not mutual. If God doesn't create the forbidden fruit, then they would still have had free will, just not the ability to choose to eat some strange fruit that He didn't want them to eat.

"God only revealed himself in the old testament when he deemed it necessary, not to make others believe him. Otherwise, there really aren't stories of people who actually saw him. They merely spoke to him in the way that people do today. That is what prayer is. The stories in the Bible simple tell the story of someone praying in a way that sounds like they were having face to face conversation. Simply revealing himself to everyone in some undeniable way rids your free will of faith because he would be making it to where people would have to believe in him."

Apparently God doesn't deem making people believe in him necessary... I know that revealing him self is necessary for my belief in him. There is absolutely nothing else that would make me believe other than him revealing himself to me in some fashion. I don't care if he physcially shows himself, speaks to me or makes random objects appear out of thin air (like the tablets given to Moses). Have you even read all of the Bible? He is not just talking to people through prayer, although I'm sure he is doing that in some parts like the prophecies. There are numerous accounts where he reveals himself in some way. In one instance he lights a fire on command so a believer can prove he exists. How is that prayer?

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Posted on 01-06-12 03:28 AM epicpokenerd! is Offline     Post: 498 words - (ID: 525828) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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The thing is, He didn't make it impossible to sin, because if he did, we wouldn't have much choice in our lives. He wants us to lead our own lives, but wants us to make the right choices. If we had no choice in our decisions like that, everything would be perfect, and Earth pretty much would be heaven. Everyone would be considerate, there wouldn't be pollution, people wouldn't slack off, everything would be perfect, and then there would be almost no need for heaven. And if there were no sin, no one would die. The reason He made sin possible is because He wants us to make the right decision on our own, so that we can lead our own lives. And He does help us go to heaven. If he weren't helping us, then no one would get in, because no one would have the right motivation not to sin. There are many accounts when something amazing happens, and someone who lead a life of sin suddenly is turned around by one person. If that isn't God's help, then I don't know what is. My favorite account of a miracle happening is when a college university professor, who was atheist, was trying to get his students to admit that there was no proof of God's existence. He said that no one has seen, felt, heard, or smelled God, so there for He doesn't exist, and you have to take everything on faith. The student he was talking to said "Professor, has anyone here seen your brain?" everyone laughed. "Has anyone touched, smelled or heard it? The answer is no, so there for we don't know if it exists, and we can't take your words into account." the room was silent. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes."
"Professor, is there such thing as cold?"
"Yes."
"Wrong. The answer is no. It is merely the absence if heat, and cold is just the term we use for it. The coldest it can get is 450 below zero. If there were such thing as cold, we could make it colder then that." the professor was speechless. "Professor, is there such thing as light?"
"Yes"
Professor, is there such thing as darkness?"
"Yes."
"Wrong again. It is merely the absence of light. If darkness were real, then you could make it darker than pitch black. This cannot be, as darkness is simply the absence of light."
"This will be a good semester."
"Professor, is there such thing as good?"
"Yes."
"Professor, is there such thing as evil?"
"Yes."
"Wrong yet again. Evil is just a term. It is simply the absence of God's love." at this, the professor sat down.

Sorry I wrote it all out. I couldn't find the link. But my point is, If God wasn't there helping us, that couldn't have happened. There are many more stories like that than I can count. Keep this one in mind if you question God's help ever again.

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Posted on 01-06-12 09:22 AM rcarter2 is Offline     Post: 160 words - (ID: 525875) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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smotpoker86 : I didn't say that he never revealed himself in a way other than prayer. I specifically said that the times in which he did reveal himself in a physical way were for a specific purpose other than convincing others he is real. He came to Moses via burning bush because he needed him to free his people from Pharaoh, for example. I have read the Bible cover to cover, and I don't recall one story where he simply showed himself by a physical means just to show someone that he truly exists. The stories in which it talks about him saying specific things to someone, in which the Bible almost makes it sound like it were a conversation, I believe that it was through prayer that they received those messages. For the fire example you gave, if you look at that story, there was more to it than just showing everyone that he exists. Look at that story again.

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Posted on 01-06-12 02:35 PM darkreaver101 is Offline     Post: 118 words - Spell checked - (ID: 525996) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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rcarter 2: You said, "I have read the Bible cover to cover, and I don't recall one story where he simply showed himself by a physical means just to show someone that he truly exists."
I'm not disagreeing. I just thought that if you wanted to stretch it a little, God sort of showed himself to remove Thomas's doubts. It doesn't seem like Christ showing himself to prove his existence, but rather Christ proving to Thomas that he did indeed rise from the dead. In a way, it is Christ proving he rose from the dead, proving he was God, and this could be seen as Christ proving his existence as God. It's all a matter of opinion. (last edited by darkreaver101 on 01-07-12 07:58 PM)

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Posted on 01-06-12 03:53 PM AuraBlaze is Offline     Post: 229 words - (ID: 526040) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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Thanks for the feedback, smotpoker. It means a lot to me just to hear it. Now for more quotes!

"I don't personally see it as a test as much as God rewarding us for ridding our corruption / punishing us for not ridding our corruption."

Now this may sound contradictory to what I previously said, but I believe that none of us ever rid ourselves of sin. Still under my own belief that God tests us, I do agree to an extent that we are rewarded for our efforts of not sinning. I don't think I can go further right now without the risk of misrepresenting what my pastor said, or possibly offending other members here.

"Where does your belief in God come from? Unless you were around when Jesus was alive and crucified than your beliefs come from the Bible."

You got me there. What I meant to say is that it's what these stories are about, but I can't say that without admitting that these are writings in a book. Honestly, it never has been just one thing --not just the Bible either-- that gives me reason to put my faith in God. I wish I could explain everything, but this thread wouldn't exactly be the best place for me to do so. Too much time and effort, not enough personal patience and skill in writing.

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