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Vizzed Fantasy Football League 2011 - Discussion Thread

 

09-26-11 06:42 PM
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pacman1755 :

Actually, it doesn't seem to be broken =) He'll be fine.

trouble982 :

tough one. I can't really choose among the greats.
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09-26-11 06:53 PM
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legacyme3 : I was only asking because you seem to say that because Tom Brady had a 4 interception game, he isn't great. Montana had plenty of them and he is considered by many people to be the greatest. Manning has had multiple as well, and many people consider him better than Brady. Most NFL analysts consider Both Manning and Brady to be top 10 at their position all time. Just because he had one bad game doesn't mean he isn't great. He's still the best QB I've ever seen .
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09-26-11 08:46 PM
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trouble982 :

Steve Young, Joe Montana, John Elway, Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Dan Marino, Fran Tankerton, Johhny Unitas, Warren Moon.

There are 10 QBs on this list. None of them are Tom Brady. I consider all of them better.
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09-26-11 09:52 PM
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trouble982 : I definitely think Tom Brady is on the top 3 best active QB's in the NFL.  He's one of those QBs who is just really fun to watch.  I don't see him playing at an old age like Favre or like Peyton probably will.
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09-27-11 07:54 AM
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legacyme3 : This is my list of the top 10 QB's of all time:
1.Tom Brady
2.Dan Marino
3.Joe Montana
4.John Elway
5.Peyton Manning
6.Warren Moon
7.Steve Young
8.Kurt Warner
9.Brett Favre 
10.Johnny Unitas
Aaron Rogers hasn't done enough yet, but he may crack this list in the future if he stays healthy and continues to have good seasons. 

Davideo7 : I don't think Peyton Manning will ever play again personally. And if he does, I see maybe 1 or 2 more seasons. He is a very injury prone QB now, and I don't see that going away with age. Brett Farve stayed in the league way to long, and only had the 1 miracle season in Minnesota.
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09-27-11 10:10 AM
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trouble982 :

Putting Tom Brady on the top of that list is very biased, being you are a Patriots fan.

Personally, I think Aikman would deserve to be on the list, but I chose to leave him off in an effort to be more fair.

I didn't even count Michael Vick, who I believe is a better all around player. And that's with the knowledge he is injury prone.

There is no way Tom Brady is better than Dan Marino. Nor Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, John Elway, Warren Moon, Steve Young or Brett Favre. I can allow you to have Kurt Warner and Johnny Unitas.

But Kurt Warner doesn't belong on that list any more than Matt Cassel does, who by the way, proved that any QB can succeed in New England. It has nothing to do with QB skill, as he did fine considering the talent AROUND him.
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(edited by legacyme3 on 09-27-11 10:10 AM)    

09-27-11 10:32 AM
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legacyme3 : Aikman was alright, but not elite. And what are you talking about with Matt Cassel. Replacing Brady with Cassel caused the team to lose 5 more games than the previous season. 
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09-27-11 10:40 AM
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trouble982 :

But the Patriots still made the playoffs, even without their "elite" QB.

Look at what Cassel has done since.

I wouldn't say Brady is elite. Maybe very good. But no more elite than Aikman.
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09-27-11 11:09 AM
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legacyme3 : When did the Patriots make the playoffs without their "elite" QB?
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09-27-11 11:17 AM
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trouble982 :

I was pretty sure they made it back when Cassel was QB'ing, but maybe I'm wrong. It's possible since that was the best year EVER for me.

Didn't have to see Tom Brady's mug for a whole f***ing year. Maybe I sort of thought, "Yes, he's not playing, they are a much more fun team to watch now."

Which they were. I honestly might like the Patriots. If it weren't for Tom Brady.
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09-27-11 01:14 PM
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trouble982 : Actually Peyton Manning is considered one of the toughest QBs next to Favre.  He's has the 2nd most consecutive starts for a QB, just a little over 200.  Also keep in mind that the really good season Favre had with the Vikings, he was 40.  I think some players can play good at an old age, Jerry Rice played until he was 44 and is considered by some to be the greatest NFL player of all time.

I think the success of the Patriots has a lot to do with Tom Brady but it has more to do with Bill Belichick because he's easily one of the greatest coach of all time, right up there with Vince Lombardi.  Also remember that the Patriots went 11-5 without Tom Brady in 2008 when he got injured and was out for the season.

legacyme3 : You might like to here the above stat.
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09-27-11 01:20 PM
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Davideo7 :

I like that little stat, since 11-5 is a pretty damn good record.

Another note, is that while Tom Brady is helpful in their success, and Bill Belicheck is an AMAZING coach, you cannot discount their wide receivers.

They are probably the best group of wide receivers in the NFL right now, and that is something all QB's would KILL for. It takes a QB to throw the ball... but a receiver to get in the right position to actually catch it and go for yardage. The game is won when a receiver can outsmart the defender.

I'll take a wager here and say that even TONY ROMO (yes, him) would be a success with the Patriots core around him.
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09-27-11 01:58 PM
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Davideo7 : Remember that 11-5 is 5 wins worse than they did the previous year. A 5 win drop is pretty significant, especially because...
legacyme3 : It kept them out of the playoffs that year. No, normally 11-5 wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's a 5 game difference from the year before. If they had gone 13-3 or 14-2, your argument would have more sticking power. But 11-5 is quite a leap. If they had gone 13-3 the year before and had fallen to 8-8, this discussion would be different in your eyes because 8-8 is bad. But it's the same 5 game leap that happened when Brady got hurt. 

Eric Mangini was on ESPN First Take the other day. One of the questions that they asked him was "Some people say Tom Brady is only good because of the system Bill Belichick has in place. What do you have to say to that?". And he responded by talking about how Tom Brady IS the Patriots system. He's the reason it all works. Bill Belichick tried to run this "system" in Cleveland, and it didn't work. Many understudies have tried to run the same systems in places like New York, Cleveland, Denver and Notre Dame. It hasn't worked anywhere else or with any other QB. Tom Brady IS the Patriots system, not the other way around. That system doesn't work as well without Tom Brady.

Also, why are you bashing Tony Romo leggy. He's an awesome QB. The Patriots only have the best Wide Receivers because Tom Brady makes them the best. Chad Ochocinco hasn't done almost anything. Wes Welker couldn't find a spot anywhere else in the NFL until Tom Brady started throwing to him. Deon Branch got traded away from the Patriots, and couldn't do ANYTHING without them. The Tight Ends were lucky, and got brought up getting thrown to by the best in the NFL. 

Do remember, Brady never really had a good receiving core until 2007. That was the first year that he ever really had a GOOD core group of receivers. And what did he do? He demolished single season records placed by Manning and others. 

One more thing to David. Jerry Rice is just a rare exception. I don't think we will ever see another Jerry Rice. Randy Moss would have been the closest thing if he had played every play instead of being lazy.  
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09-27-11 02:19 PM
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trouble982 :

Keep in mind I am a Cowboys Fan.

Tony Romo is the Alex Rodriguez of football. He chokes in the playoffs.

Regardless of how the Patriots played the previous season, you had to expect a drop off. 16-0 is impossible to repeat basically. Good luck convincing me otherwise.

Even if they had gone 15-1 you would argue it was because Tom Brady wasn't playing.

I'm willing to bet you, had Tom Brady played that season, they'd have only gone 12-4. ONE WHOLE WIN BETTER.

Tom Brady is better than Matt Cassel... but seriously. Matt Cassel is basically substandard, a lot of QB's are better than him.

The point is he brought the Patriots to 11-5. 11 wins. From a subaverage QB.

BECAUSE HIS WIDE RECEIVERS WERE AMAZING.

It had nothing to do with Tom Brady that season, nor any other season.

The receivers are the best because they are the best at fooling oppenents defenses. Not because Tom Brady is good at throwing.
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09-27-11 02:23 PM
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legacyme3 : I wouldn't be arguing that if they had gone 15-1, 14-2, or 13-3. Matt Cassel is STILL a starting QB in the NFL, even after being let go from the Patriots. Those Wide Receivers are the best because Tom Brady makes amazing passes that only they can catch (usually, obviously their are bad games like he had Sunday). They would not have let go of Drew Bledsoe if they didn't know Tom Brady was great. Drew Bledsoe was an awesome QB who get's a bad rep because of his time in Buffalo and Dallas. Also, remember back when the Patriots won those Super Bowls? They had no-name receivers other than Troy Brown, who was considered an all right NFL receiver. 

Edit: Also, you're telling my you think they would have gone 12-4 with Tom Brady. So basically what you are saying is that Tom Brady would have been the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs. That pretty much proves my point. Thank You. 
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(edited by trouble982 on 09-27-11 02:25 PM)    

09-27-11 02:24 PM
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legacyme3 : Yeah Matt Cassel isn't very great so the fact that the Patriots did that good with him is saying a lot.  I will disagree with you on one thing though, I think the Packers probably have the best group of Wide Receivers in the NFL at the moment.  Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Jermichael Finley and Donald Driver, definitely future hall of famers.
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09-27-11 02:27 PM
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Davideo7 : Other than maybe Jordy Nelson, who could still become hall of fame material, I would tend to agree that the Packers have the best receiver core in the NFL. Finley is crazy good. So, does that mean Aaron Rogers isn't that good because he has great wide receivers? That's kind of what Leggy has been saying about the Pats .
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09-27-11 02:28 PM
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Davideo7 :

I can see your argument on that, I really can.

The argument I'm making is that the Patriots WR must be the best or close because they clearly can succeed no matter the QB.

I think the Packers WR core really relies on Aaron Rodgers as a whole, who is among the top QBs along with Vick and Manning. Maybe better, who can tell really?

trouble982 :

The fact remains he was still the PATRIOTS QB AT ONE POINT

He won. WITH THE PATRIOTS. They won. WITH HIM.

They won without Tom Brady. Sure they missed the playoffs, but they were still a really good team without their "elite" QB.

The argument remains that Tom Brady is not this uber amazing QB. He's better than Cassel, but a lot of players are.

It would have made the difference, but only a slight one. BECAUSE THE PATRIOTS WIDE RECEIVERS ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE UP THE SLACK.
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09-27-11 02:38 PM
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lol I haven't had this long of a discussion on vizzed in a while.  Maybe we should get back to talking more about the fantasy football stuff?
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09-27-11 04:35 PM
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legacyme3 : They won a lot LESS with him.It was a drastic 5 games less than the previous season. They wen't from elite to pretty good. That says a lot about the QB. Also, would you say Peyton Manning isn't as good as people make him out to be because he's had a great receiving core his entire career?

Davideo7 : Something fantasy related...hmm...Tom Brady is by far the Fantasy leader this year .
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