Prepare to get schooled, Christians. Because there is no hell, and the Bible clearly explains this.

Also, when you die, you won't get to heaven either. That too is in the Bible.

Now, when I link this. You are not going to like it. But if you are the Christian you say you are. Then you better damn well like it:

I watch David C Pack, who is the pastor for the "Restored Church of God" and he clearly explains in simple detail -STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE-.

Q: IS THERE AN EVER BURNING HELL?

A: http://www.worldtocome.org/player.html#!Item=558768,1

Detail: Read this Book: "The Truth About Hell": http://www.thercg.org/books/ttah.html

If you can not spend 30 minutes of your time watching this video. Then enjoy worrying for the rest of your life about Hell. Because there is no hell, and the next topic might scare you "Christians" because guess what?

Q: If I die will I go to heaven?
A: NO!

Detail Answer: Read this book "Do the Saved go to Heaven?" http://www.thercg.org/books/dtsgth.html

Introduction Video: http://www.thercg.org/landing_v_dtsgth.html


The Bible teaches not going into heaven or any of that nonsense. It teaches a resurection. Something many churches don't preach because you can't make any money off of this.

Why worry about hell? Start worrying about everlasting ignorance and darkness. The bible clearly says that when you die your thoughts perish. Look that up in your bible.

This forum is a joke to me sometimes. You fools think that you know your bible and this thread is one of them. When the pastor tought you about Hell did he quote the bible? Doubt it, because it's not in it. And if you share it. Tell me what God tought you. Did you really read your bible? Did you ask God to open up your eyes and tell him to have him speak to you what you should know about hell?

Asking god to Open your eyes is a God Commanding action, and it's also used when reading the bible.

Get your facts straight. Dare you to quote me on this.

bitmap sorta stole my thunder (we were writting at the same time) but hey I guess its a motherzebraing thunderstorm now

thenumberone : You are pretty much spot on when said that hell is originally a greek idea. From my studies and analysis I have concluded that a modern concept of hell wasn't in the Jewish culture until sometime during the Hellenization of Judaism and it certainly cannot be found in the Hebrew and Aramaic versions of the Torah/Pentateuch. At some point during the Hellenization taking place in Israel , Koine Greek became the official language and most Jews didn't speak any Hebrew at all. This is why they made a greek translation of the Pentateuch, called the Septuagint or sometimes called LXX because of the 70 scribes who translated it. Today it is called The Old Testament.

There are a couple words which got translated to hell or hades in the Septuagint and these are Sheol and Gehinnom. The two words are occasionaly used like they are interchangeable . Sheol generally means grave or pit and Gehinnom is where spirits go after death for a purification process that lasts up to 12 months before they go to Olam Ha-Ba or world to come. Certain sins are punished by the sinner being "cut off from his people" which means they are not allowed into the world to come and they cease to exist.



You made a suggestion that the fiery imagery of hell might be a scare tactic. It very well could be, but it has its basis in an actual event that took place near Jerusalem.  I am going to quote the Biblical Dictionary explanation found on http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Gehenna as it does a good job summarizing it.

"(originally Gebene Hinnom; i.e.,"the valley of the sons of Hinnom") ,a deep , narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech  (2Chr.28:3;33:6;Jer.7:31;19:2-6). This valley after wards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals , and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by a fire kept always burning. It thus in process became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by your Lord in Matt.5:22,29,30; 10:28;18:9;23:15,33; Mark9:43,45,47; Luke12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell",  the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin."

So Gehenna is a deep narrow valley where the city of Jerusalem burned all their garbage in a fire that was kept going. Then they burned the bodies of criminals there. To me this sounds alot like hell as we know it today.

Bitmap :

Ok, here's your quote:

Originally posted by Bitmap

---

When the pastor tought you about Hell did he quote the bible? Doubt it, because it's not in it.

---

There are plenty of scriptures in the KJV, if that's where you're reading from, that pertain to hell:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=hell&t=KJV&sf=5



I think you should not try and troll Christians here; we've already had too many problems in this forum and it's not necessary - this is not a forum for debate, it's for those who have Christian beliefs. Read the forum description: "Christian Tolerance Required!"

tRIUNE : Oh, I am so Glad you quoted this. I really am, and I already said you were not gonna like it. So allow me to go deeper.

Matthew 10:28: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him [God] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”


Are the dead Conscious?

Psalm 146:3-4: “Put not your trust…in the son of man…His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” When people die, their thoughts end immediately—“in that very day.”

So you are burning and hell and you are conscious? Oh the Bible says that. But you honestly believe you are going to feel it? Where does it say that in the Bible?

Not trolling you. I'm just giving you the facts. Read the bible. Moron.

E- I know you read this post. You mad bro? Did you even bother to read the entire post I made? Including videos (Which also has books, all free to read mind you) and yet you show me verses in the bible about hell which is fallacy about what the meaning of hell is and what YOU feel is true? Are you mad bro!?

I bet you are. And if you arent. You are lying to yourself. Meet a Christian who is judging you by your fruits. You have your facts wrong! All WRONG!

Just giving you some "Christian Tolerance". Hope you enjoyed it.

Bitmap :

In addition to fire, the New Testament describes hell as a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13). The very variety of hell’s descriptors argues against applying a literal interpretation of any particular one. For instance, hell’s literal fire could emit no light, since hell would be literally dark. Its fire could not consume its literal fuel (persons!) since their torment is non-ending. Additionally, the gradation of punishments within hell also confounds literalness.

Bitmap : I just saw this thread got more active, and I don't have the time right now to fully answer your question, but I would add from what tRIUNE said is from what Jesus says in Luke 16. He gave a literal description of what happens to Lazarus and the rich man after they died. Lazarus was consciously with Abraham in heaven, and the rich man was consciously in hell under suffering of fire, and begged Abraham to save him. The was spoken in a literal way because the way He spoke it was not written as a parable.

Again, read Psalm 146:3-4

I seriously want you to read those verses.

Matthew 25:30: Is simply a means of the theory "Death".

Matthew 11:20-24 simply speaks of "hades" or as we all know "A hole in the ground". Your grave.

Revelation 20:14 speaks of a "Lake of Fire" but get this, during a "resurrection" from your body! If you don't pass into the earthly kingdom (Which is also said in the Bible) Then you will be sent into the Lake of Fire. Where with iron rods Christians roam and will walk on the ashes of sinners.

Honestly, you are too funny. None of these are about Hell.

Every other verse you quoted I am going to save time and say that yes. Those are right. But that is not the Hell you were wanting to hear.

tRIUNE : I think what bitmap and I have said in our posts are entirely related to this discussion.  I don't think he is trolling as much as he is just being rude. Also, the threads I made to debate Christianity in the debate forum made people ask me why I didn't put it in this forum.

And about the discussion in the thread, the KJV translates sheol/grave into hell . That is the basic idea that I am trying to get at with my previous post. I personally don't care if you think Mutant Unicorns from Outter Space created hell, it doesn't change the fact that hell meant something entirely different in the older bibles.

Bitmap : I agree 100% with what you are saying, but there is no need to be rude. All it is doing is making a fool out of yourself thus making people less likely to listen to what you have to say.

smotpoker86 : You only view it as rude. Everyone here so far has got the idea of hell all wrong. Bible teaches to judge someone by their fruits and I am doing so.

Christian tolerance required.

Bitmap : Lemme ask you this, do you believe in the Rapture of the Church, or are you going to tell me that's wrong too?

tRIUNE : Tell me where Rapture is in the Bible and that will be my answer.

Bitmap : Interesting...you didn't respond to the one example I gave so far.

But after reading the next few responses, I would like to say that you are not judging someone by their fruits, but you are judging by appearance, which is what the Bible says not to do: "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." (John 7:24) And if we are to talk about the fruits of a Christian, the Bible clearly talks about what the fruits of a Christian are: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..." (Galatians 5:22-23) So if you are a Christian, and you examine yourself (2 Corinthians 13:5), do you think you are practicing those types of fruits from the way you gave those responses?

Or are you displaying a sense of pride in your heart, a pride that you think you know everything (or more than) there is to know about scripture? Believe me, sir, for a guy like you at the age of 23, you still have a lot to learn. Even myself, a 20 year old, there is a lot more for me to learn about God and the Bible, and even if you know more about scripture than others, that is no good reason to be proud of yourself and call others fools, because every Christian continues to learn, continues to grow, and continues to live for Christ. And the Bible makes it clear: "The LORD detests all the proud of heart..." (Proverbs 16:5) and "Haughty eyes and a proud heart, the lamp of the wicked, are sin!" (Proverbs 21:4) and "...God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." (James 4:6)

Some of these people here are not saying that they know the answer, but suggesting what they thought or opinion. Also, it is quite a generalization and an exaggeration to say that people in this forum don't know their Bibles. (I'm sure there are some, but it is not enough to say that this forum is a "joke") There are some who come to this forum for answers and/or for encouragement in a Christian context. There is no room for such rudeness and arrogance in this type of forum. If you are really trying to show truth or the hope that lies within you, you failed to do so in a godly manner. For it is 1 Peter 3:15 that when you defending about the hope that lies within you, you "do it with gentleness and respect"

To add to that, you should know as well as me that Jesus warned against those who calls people fools: "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22) (--which, btw, also mentions about being in danger of the fire of hell. Jesus spoke of hell as a reality.) You should know that the word "fool" is specifically used for a certain group of people, and to call someone that when they are not "fools" is sinful. It was David who said that it is "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”" (Psalm 14:1) not because they are not smart or don't know the answer certain questions, or they are uneducated, but because they are what Romans 1 states "suppressing of truth" and because of this, they "proclaim to be wise, they became fools" Now, not everyone here is trying to suppress the truth. So for you to say a fool to someone is sinning, and I pray that you would confess and ask for forgiveness to God of such a sin.

So if you are truly ready to have an open and appropriate discussion about this, please respond to Luke 16.

play4fun : I was not judging by appearance. Fruits, is knowledge. I don't know what he looks like, I only know what he is preaching.

Also Tell me what I should look at in Luke 16.

If you are arguing that there is a hell then I know you were not reading my posts or you were ignoring them. If so, I have no time for you. And if you did read them; then you have to agree that there is no hell.

It's simple. Anything else is just humoring me.

E3- Also you are cute too Play4Fun, Honestly, you are. Do you know what a "Fool" is? What you are doing is basically calling someone that, and yet you are protesting through your own words what you feel has to do with the bible!

So that entire post you just made? You were calling me a fool. And oh so how wrong you are. Looks like you are going to hell!

Oh wait, there is no everlasting burning fire that burns when you are a sinner. You have your facts all wrong my friend. Try again.

Bitmap : I wasn't particularly talking about that type of appearance. I'm talking about just plainly look at the outside when making a judgment, but not judged rightly. Here you are judging from what is being posted that people here don't know their Bibles, which may be true for some people, because there is a variety of people here, but there are also people who actually read and study their Bibles and not just base it from what a pastor says. Which is interesting for you because you are linking us to David C. Pack of Restored Church of God, which is branched off from Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, which the teachings from these churches (some call it Armstrongism, based on the founder) has a bunch of pretty iffy teachings, and has been perceived as a cult. I personally didn't know much about it, but has some characteristics of one.

Looks like someone did not read my post before the recent post because I explained which part of Luke 16 I am talking about. I'm talking about Luke 16:19-31. I was responding to your other post about whether the person's soul would be conscious after death, and it shows here that Jesus claims that they do. Also I said that I couldn't read your link because I don't have the time at that moment. I need to sleep. I will read it soon and respond to it.

I just told you what the Bible defines a fool to be: someone who say that there is no God, not because they are not intelligent, but because they are suppressing the truth. If you want to see the dictionary definition:

fool
noun
1. a silly or stupid person; a person who lacks judgment or sense.
2. a professional jester, formerly kept by a person of royal or noble rank for amusement: the court fool.
3. a person who has been tricked or deceived into appearing or acting silly or stupid: to make a fool of someone.
4. an ardent enthusiast who cannot resist an opportunity to indulge an enthusiasm (usually preceded by a present participle): He's just a dancing fool.
5. a weak-minded or idiotic person.

I'm saying it is a sin for calling someone a fool when they are not. And from these definitions, I did not say or imply that you are a fool (not yet until you show me otherwise). Of course, I don't know about No. 2 or No. 4 on the list, since I don't know you in person, but I did not say anything from the rest of the list that you are a fool. I know many arguments for annihilationism, and it is understandable that some Christians would see it that way, but I don't call them fools for it. I think they're wrong, but they're not fools for believing in annihilationism.

I do think that the response that you made were really prideful and arrogant. You don't respond to other people's replies with the type of gentleness and understanding that a Christian should have. Even smotpoker, who is an atheist, thinks that you are being rude. How are you setting an example of what it means to be a follower of Christ? How is the way that you type and say certain things ("Get ready to be schooled", "you're too funny", "dare you to quote me on this", "this forum is a joke" and even cursed at one part of your post) being a good witness for Christ? Seriously think about that.

What you are doing is basically flaming, and it states in the posting rules that you shouldn't flame. So just watch the way you are posting, and keep this forum smooth in terms of discussion.

Bitmap :

There are 3 words translated "hell" in scripture:
-Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; James 3:6)
-Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)
-Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)

You're saying that death ceases conscience existence, but scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell was conscious (Luke 16:19-31). He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn't asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment". If hell is a place of knowing nothing (your thoughts perish) or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, then Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell": where the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48).

The Bible refers to hell as:
-Shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2)
-Everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46)
-Weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:51)
-Fire unquenchable (Luke 3:17)
-Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish (Romans 2:8-9)
-Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
-Eternal fire... the blackness and darkness forever (Jude 7, 13)

Revelation 14:10-11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone... the smoke of their torment ascended up forever and ever: and they had no rest day or night". This doesn't sound like sleeping to me.

About the Rapture, see, you're claiming there's no hell and just a resurrection, but there are actually 2 resurrections, the Rapture being the first.

The word rapture isn't in the Bible. The Latin word "rapiemur" is the Latin translation of the Greek word "harpazo" which is translated into English in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "caught up". So from "rapiemur" we have coined the term "Rapture". The first resurrection is the resurrection of "the dead in Christ" at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign "with Christ a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4), but the "rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Revelation 20:5).

For believers, death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. While the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave "sleeping". At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, "I am in agony in this fire" (Luke 16:24).

First of all I want to clear something up, in a previous post I said I agree 100% with what bitmap said, and that simply is not the case. I do however , agree with the basic premise of his argument. The difference being I just look at what Jewish/Grecian/Christian texts and scholars say about "hell" from an atheistic viewpoint and he believes it because some minister or pastor or whotf ever told him. 

I am going to reply to some posts made to bitmap because it does relate to what I was saying in my first post.

play4fun : "Even smotpoker, who is an atheist, thinks that you are being rude." hey whats that supposed to mean?! hahaha

Anways, since bitmap hasn't tackled your question about Luke 16 I will give my interpretation of it. Essentially , I think it is a parable. The majority of the previous chapters of Luke has Jesus teaching lessons using parables , in Luke 17:6 Jesus uses another parable. Luke 16:19-31 is  very similar to "The Parable of the Shrewd Manager" as the NIV bible I am referencing titles it (Luke 16:1-14). The major difference I can see between the two is that Jesus names one of the characters in his parable as Lazarus. In Greek and Hebrew Lazarus, means "God is my help" which I find to be a very fitting name for that sick beggar. Maybe you could explain to me how this isn't considered a parable but Luke 16:1-14 is.

If Luke 16:19-31 is to be taken literally than people who go to hell can expect to communicate with beings in heaven.

tRIUNE : I found this site http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStudy/HellCharts.htm. It is a chart with all the references of "hell" in the bible, and it lists the different translations between versions of the Bible. Very interesting and helpful in this type of discussion. It also distinguishes between Gehenna , Hades, and Sheol in the Old and New Testaments.

Although they all translate to Hell for example as they do in the KJV, there is a clear distinction between them. Mostly between Gehenna and Hades.

It should be noted that there is only Sheol in the old testament ( the original Hebrew/Aramic aswell as some literal translations). For obvious reasons Hades first shows up in the Greek translations. They probably spoke sheol as hades before the Septuagint was written but it would definetly be after the inital start of the Hellinistic period, again for obvious reasons. There is mention of Gehenna in the old testament but only when refering to the valley south of Jerusalem, or Gehinnom as it would have been called in the Hebrew versions.


Now in the New Testament, there is no Sheol but Hades and Gehenna instead. This is probably due to Israel speaking Greek for a few hundred years.(exactly the same reason why the greek version of the old testament uses hades instead of sheol.) There is also a difference between Hades and Gehenna that can be seen in the NT. The best verse, I find,  to show this is Revelations 20:14-15.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. "

The best explanation I have found for the difference between hades and Gehenna is that hades is sheol as found in the OT and Gehenna is well its the valley where they burned criminals bodies. Gehenna is synonymous with "Lake of fire". According to ancient Jewish folktales, there is a lake of fire below the physical valley of Gehinnom.

In my opinion that verse makes much more sense when sheol (and its traditional Jewish meaning) is used instead of hades. Sheol in the OT is the place where everyone goes, both righteous and unrighteous. In the OT and even most modern Jewish sects, there is no "hell"...there is either eternal life or death. A good example of this would be Psalms 16:9-10 where David says "That is why my heart is glad and my soul rejoices. My body rests securely because you do not abandon my soul to the grave (shoel/hades in other versions or hell in KJV) or allow your holy one to decay."

I am not trying to refute that there is an eternal punishment or torture in the NT, I am simply saying that the concept of hell is completely missing from the OT. For whatever reason Judaism transisitioned or evolved from the OT and incorporated Gehenna into it. This could have something to do with either Grecian or Roman influence in Israel but I am not certain. It likely happened before Jesus as Gehenna was used before his time.


Anways , tRIUNE, just some my response has mostly just been food for thought. Feel free to respond on to respond to any of it. Its completely understandable if you don't reply, a lot of what I am talking about is Judaic and not Christian so I don't expect you to know exactly what I am talking about. Edit - Wow I sure butchered that sentance haha. Anyways I will leave it up for others to laugh at too.

smotpoker86 : Yeah, both righteous and unrighteous in the OT were sent to the same place, but they were in different parts. The term "Abraham’s bosom" is found only once in the New Testament, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which Jesus was teaching about was the reality of heaven and hell. "Abraham’s bosom" in this story is also translated "Abraham’s side" (NIV, ESV), "next to Abraham" (CEV), "with Abraham" (NLT), and "the arms of Abraham" (NCV). These various translations speak to the enigmatic nature of the Greek word kolpos.

All these translations are attempting to convey the sense that Lazarus went to a place of rest, contentment, and peace, almost as though Abraham (a highly revered person in Jewish history) was the protector or patron. In a sad contrast, the rich man finds himself in torment with no one to help, assist or console him.

This was before Christ; when he was crucified he was "in the earth" (Abraham's Bosom) for 3 days, and now Abraham's Bosom is non-existent, since we either go to be with Christ when we die or a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation.

So yeah, fascinating stuff to ponder.