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  Views: 1,271,287,636     10-21-14 05:22 AM  

Homosexuals




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Homosexuals
- How does your church handle them?
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Posted on 11-04-11 03:45 PM BTowns is Offline     Post: 233 words - Spell checked - (ID: 491547) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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kabenon007 :   So did God just change his mind then?  This being which is supposed to be absolute truth, his word is law, changed his mind?  If he can go back on what he says, then his word is neither absolute nor truth.  If he can change it, it is not absolute law.  If the OT is so flawed, why bother reading it?  Have you read anywhere in the NT that even talks about homosexuality?  Does the NT even say it's a sin?  From my research and having read them both myself, there's only about three passages in the whole NT that when taken out of context might be referring to homosexuality.  Too bad there isn't a single Greek word written in the NT that should be translated into English as "homosexual."  What about the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" and "love thy neighbor as thyself" stuff too?  It's not our place to make any comments or even to speculate on someone's sexual orientation, and it's definitely not our place to control how they live or dehumanize them by not affording them the same rights and privileges as heterosexuals.

EDIT:  For a nice little summary I just found, you can just go look it up on wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_New_Testament  I was right on my count of only three passages, but wow they're a lot more vague about homosexuality than I remembered.

(last edited by BTowns on 11-04-11 03:52 PM)

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Posted on 11-04-11 08:09 PM billythekidmonster is Offline     Post: 36 words - (ID: 491687) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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tRIUNE : I do not know what to do as this has slipped to Atheist hate time... I am summoning you to see if I am over reacting and if you can talk to them...

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Posted on 11-04-11 09:53 PM thenumberone is Offline     Post: 190 words - (ID: 491780) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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billythekidmonster : its hardly sliped into atheist "hate time." no atheist here has made a hate comment,they have simply stated that you cant pick and choose what bits of the bible to believe,because,by logic,if the bible is gods word then it must all be true,and if you dont accept this it must be aknowledged that there is the potential for the bits you believe to be wrong too.
I looked over levitacus the other day,and it recomended gay men should be beheaded,and that slavery is ok so long as the slaves are from another country.
The point people are making is that these things are put together yet most christians dont preach that.
The old testament is disregarded by most christians who,when quoted damning scripture,say,ah but thats from the old testament.
But the old testament is the only real area of the bible that condems it, so christians,following the new testament,really shouldnt carry that view.
This is the point being made,and it is neither hate or persecution,this whole debate is simply about weather its a valid CHRISTIAN belief.
Heck,on this site there are gay christians,and there are now gay ministers.


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Posted on 11-05-11 02:18 AM play4fun is Offline     Post: 993 words - Spell checked - (ID: 492029) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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Ok, everyone. Remember these two concepts: Old Covenant and New Covenant.

Basically, the Old Covenant was established under the time of Moses, which the basic idea of the consequences of the Old Covenant is this: "follow me and do what is holy, and I will bless you. Disobey and be evil, and I will curse you." The whole point is to establish a People of God, and to distinguish themselves from the pagans around them. This is quite common, especially in the Book of Judges, where you see that repeated cycle of God using outside civilizations to conquer Israel because of their disobedience, and then someone was called to deliver Israel, and then commanded them to follow God and be holy. The Old Covenant was broken by humanity. We did not hold to our side of the Covenant

But now, after Christ died on the cross, a New Covenant was established through Jesus, as declared in the Book of Jeremiah:

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

That is also why during the Last Supper, Jesus declared the New Covenant. Because of this New Covenant, we are forgiven through the cross and having faith in the saving power of Jesus. Instead of doing sacrifices, Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. Instead of following purity laws and circumcision, we are clean and are continually made clean through Christ. Instead of living under the power of the Law, Christians live under the power of God's Grace.

With that in mind, there are different ways to deal with OT Laws. All of them will get you to about the same result. The two that I am more familiar is the following:

1. The laws are divided into moral laws, civil laws, and ceremonial laws. Civil laws and ceremonial laws deal with issues and cultural backgrounds at that time, and is under the old covenant. Moral laws are God's moral standard and are unchanging from the beginning to the end on what is considered holy and God honoring, and what is considered sinful and an abomination. Simply put, civil laws and ceremonial laws don't apply (different covenant, different culture) but the moral laws still applies.
2. Anything that is repeated in the NT is considered valid in the New Covenant.

Overall, OT laws like dietary, specific sacrifices, clean and unclean laws, government practices, etc. They don't apply to Christians, let alone modern times. Those laws were given at that time under a different culture and a different covenant. In fact, I remember a verse in Leviticus that sums up the whole point of the Israelites following those laws: to distinguish who are God's people from those who were not. To stress that God is holy. Understand this context, and you would understand OT laws, and understand that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. (gotta love going back to Jesus on everything )

The Bible is the Word of God, which means that the Old Testament is included in that. Anyone who pick and chooses scripture and usually those who do so to support a certain view of their own would contradict biblical doctrine and were considered heretics. One historical heretic that I can think of would be Marcion, who decided to get rid of most of the Old Testament just to support his views. So again, you need to the OT in order for the NT to make sense. If you don't understand Leviticus, then you won't understand Hebrews. You don't see distinctions in Daniel, then it would be harder to understand Revelation or 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

Now in terms of homosexuality, it is mentioned in the New Testament, like in Romans 1, where it is call "sinful desires" of "sexual impurity" and it is describing "women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another." It is here that describes the act of homosexuality to be sinful. It is also in 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 where homosexuality is spoken in the same sentences with other sins, like idolatry, adultery, greed, thievery. Anyone who is practicing these sins in their lifestyle is said to not inherit the Kingdom of God. In connection, with homosexuality stated as sexual immorality, it is antiparellel to the list of the fruits of the spirit in the book of Galatians, which is "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" So there are enough references in the NT stating that homosexuality is a sin.

BTowns : The specific comment about judging. The first verse you referred to is talking about judging hypocritically. There is nothing wrong about telling others what is a sin and what is not. In fact, it is more loving for a person to confront someone about their sins than to let them continue sinning. The Bible shows so many areas where confronting sin is shown: Jesus calling out on the Pharisees, Paul confronting Peter concerning his discrimination against Gentiles, Nathan rebuking David's affair, etc.
(last edited by play4fun on 11-05-11 02:19 AM)

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Posted on 11-07-11 05:07 PM tRIUNE is Offline     Post: 50 words - (ID: 493347) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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billythekidmonster :
Personally I believe homosexuality is wrong according to what I read in the Bible; if people want to disagree, that's fine, but from what I read, I get that discernment.

This thread has a potential to get to the point of an argument, but that's not my intention.

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I love how everyone is so chilled out about this subject on here usually they are trolling pretty bad on each other and I was raised to accept everyone the way they are and not try to change them if people want to be gay go ahead just don't  do it in front of me .

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Posted on 11-10-11 11:12 AM jzrozzn8706 is Offline     Post: 184 words - Spell checked - (ID: 495192) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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Man. I hate when churches will dis and tear down homosexuals or anyone just because they are either not right to them or because they see someone as who they are instead of what they do. One church comes to mind: Westboro Baptist Church. These guys should never have any affiliation with the name "Baptist". I can't believe all the crap they get away with.
Growing up, I've been good friends with homosexual guys because they knew that I wouldn't ever condemn them, though I would try to talk about their behavior sometimes. And for this, my brothers and their friends, and some former friends I had totally rejected me for not being a "gay-basher" like they were. It really sucked to see how they would treat people just because they weren't comfortable around them. I could clearly see they were missing out on God's love. So, yeah. I agree with billy and triune about how the Christian attitude should be around homosexuals. Make sure they feel just as accepted and loved as any straight person is, though we cannot approve of the sin.

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Posted on 01-02-12 12:56 AM BNuge is Offline     Post: 673 words - Spell checked - (ID: 522205) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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I'm surprised I didn't find this thread sooner. Anything I say reflects my opinion. I don't mean to offend anyone. I want that to be clear.

Well, the church I used to go to regularly is somewhat anti-homosexual. The woman who ran my CCD program openly announced to all of the students that as long as she was at that church she would not allow a gay wedding to take place there. That bothered me.

My brother goes to a Liberal Catholic church. They are completely accepting of homosexuality and bisexuality. Apparently, the priest there found a verse in the Bible that actually permits homosexuality. I have to talk to him to find out what that is. That church encourages homosexual and bisexual people to be themselves.

Regardless, that priest said something that actually makes sense. "You don't choose who you're attracted to. You choose who you fall in love with."

When a church aims to turn homosexuals actually kinda bothers me. My uncle is a born again Christian who tried to 'save' his own brother. In my opinion, it's offensive that he would go to his brother and tell him he's going to hell if he won't change a part of who he is. I don't mind people who think it's wrong as long as they don't bother me.

People also need to develop their own opinions. If someone is raised in a racist family, they will probably grow up believing that n*gger is an appropriate word. They don't know any better and they won't know any better until they develop their own opinion rather than taking the opinions of others as their own.


Just to be clear (and I mean this with the utmost respect), I have no intention of doing anything, but embracing my homosexuality.


Hoochman :

http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=424004
If someone was 'turned,' then they probably were never 100% gay to begin with. You can't talk someone into being sexually attracted to a gender apart from their own natural attraction. It's just not how people work. If someone was 'turned,' they are either faking it or they're bisexual. The odds of them being talked into being completely straight are very small.


p0tt34 :

http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=424703
I'm not even remotely stereotypical. I've only had 3 or 4 people guess that I'm gay and they're all people who didn't know me. My brother is bi and I came out to him about a week after he decided he was going to try to set me up with one of his female friends. He didn't have a clue.


epicpokenerd! :

http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=484041
Too many people hate the sin and use that hatred to harass the sinner. They don't hate the sinner, but they do persecute the sinner.


NotJon :

http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=490874
I love you ♥ jk

NotJon-
http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=490885
I love your opinion on that. Overpopulation is a concern. Allowing homosexuality would actually help since homosexuals also generally turn to adoption if they want a family.


Annette :

http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=490934
I love you for finding that
I did hear at an actual mass that if a woman remarries after her husband dies, then she is technically cheating on her dead husband.


tRIUNE :

http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=491024
First of all, you should know that I respect you. Now, on to the point.
You are saying that parts of the Old Testament no longer apply. Who decided which parts matter and which parts don't? Furthermore, why would they decide that God's dislike of handicapped people is no longer valid, while God's dislike of homosexuality is valid? It seems very coincidental that that is exactly how people evolved. It's almost as if the opinions of the Bible changed to fit the opinions of the people reading the Bible.
Again, I mean this in the most polite way possible.

Note- I did read play4fun's post, but I'm interested in your opinion.


play4fun :

http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=29257&pl=492029
If the Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians or modern times, then why do so many Christians refer to passages from the Old Testament when presenting arguments regarding modern society?
(last edited by BNuge on 01-02-12 12:57 AM)


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BNuge : Not likely. All homosexuality is, is a sexual attraction to the same sex. After time with proper therapy and counseling, it can be resolved like any sexual or emotional insecurity.

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Hoochman :

That suggests that it is an insecurity that needs to be resolved. It's not practical, but I could take your argument and turn it around. By your logic, we could teach everyone in the world to be gay and to completely forget their heterosexual insecurities. Babies could still be made, but they would be raised in homosexual families. Society would go on.


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From what i know, there are no homosexuals in my church....unless someone is hiding in the closet. But if someone did announce that they were attracted to the same sex in my church, they would most likely be treated the same, but looked opon differently...sad to say, but that's just how hypocritical people can be :/
Saying not to discriminate, but they are masters of doing so.

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Posted on 01-02-12 05:04 PM thenumberone is Offline     Post: 54 words - (ID: 522778) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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Hoochman : as bnuge said, whos to say gays are insecure, if they were insecure wouldnt making themselves stand out by being different be counterproductive to them and hence result in no people being gay.
the only sexual preference insecurities is the fear people will persecute you for it which,sadly, is a very valid fear.


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BNuge : "That suggests that it is an insecurity that needs to be resolved." Yes I suggest that. I

"but I could take your argument and turn it around." Go ahead.

What society needs is a strong family backing, which I don't believe homosexuality provides. But what I really think is detrimental to society is when we keep pushing legislation down our throats when gays already have rights of any other citizen along with the media and government as well as a sizable chunk of the population already on their side.





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Hoochman :

Things have gotten better, but "gays already have rights of any other citizen along with the media and government" is nowhere near true. Citizens have the right to marry, but churches openly reject the very concept of it.

The 'It Gets Better' project was certainly a nice bit of media attention. Unfortunately, the reason behind it was convincing gay people not to kill themselves based on persecution.

And as far as government goes, there are some gay politicians, but there's a reason for all of the gay rights groups. Repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" caused an uproar. If gays had as many rights as everyone else, then the repeal would have been one of those two-minute side stories on the 11:00 news. Instead, it made headlines.


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BNuge : and during the dadt repeal a soldier saw 2 guys in the same bed (not even naked) and in all his non confused/ non insecure straightness felt compeled to run off and report it.
Hoochman : i dont recall people being linched/ beaten for being straight,yet gays?happens all the time.
How do they have the same rights?they only just became eligible to fight for there country,its illegal to be gay in many us states and illegal for gay marriage in many more.
You talk of famill values, gays cheat on each other far less, they teach kids not to persecute,and in areas where gay marriage is permited there devorce rate is far lower than that of hetrosexuals.
They just introduced gay marriage in scotland and the catholic church started causing trouble (as if its any of there buisines) but imediately the health of gay men improved and the visit to gps significantly reduced.thats saving the taxpayer money,great,why wasnt this done sooner.


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BNuge : I respectfully disagree. You have the right to free speech. You have the right to bear arms. You have the right to peacefully assemble. You have the right to vote. The truth is sir, you have most rights that any other citizen has. Anything less is unconstitutional. Don't ask don't tell shouldn't have been repealed. The military is for serving a country. Its not for people trying to make a social statement.

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Hoochman : There are actual studies and real testimonies show that homosexual families are just as good, if not better than straight families. And not every homosexual comes from a broken home or a dysfunctional family. I know plenty of my gay friends who had perfect families, yet they were gay. 

Yes, we have the very basics of rights, but then again, you can get married, you don't have to worry about being fired from your job or kicked out of your house/apartment just for being straight. You don't have to worry about being able to visit your future wife if she were to become sick or deathly ill in the hospital. However, I have to worry about all those because I'm not "normal" to most people.

Also, I am glad DADT was repealed. During the many years that it was instated, do you realize how easy it was to get a rival or someone you didn't like out of the military? All you'd have to do is go to your CO and say you saw them with a gay prostitute or something and they would be in trouble. What we need is people who are willing to fight for our country, not having to worry about, "Oh did I seem too gay, am I going to get kicked out...I just want to serve our country." Having DADT is beneficial because it lets all of our LGBT soldiers serve without fear of being kicked out and dishonorably discharged. You do realize that being dishonorably discharged is a really bad thing that follows you around for the rest of your life?

thenumberone : Just to correct you, it's not illegal to be gay in this country, however it is easier to be discriminated against if you are gay. 


And to top this long post off...
Honestly, I don't even care about gay marriage...I would not mind a term called Civil Marriage where we don't have to get married in a church (so the extremist Christians don't have to worry about the "Sanctity of Marriage" [That is another topic for which I will leave until later]) just so long as we had the exact same rights and benefits in the Government's eyes as a Straight couple. 

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BNuge : I'll say basically what play4fun has already said. But I'll try and put in other words. Does the law of the Old Testament apply to us today? No because Christians aren't under that law, they're under the law of Christ. Those laws in Leviticus were given to the nation of Israel to follow. The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. When Christ was crucified he fulfilled that law for us, Colossians 2:14 says he wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. He's the fulfillment of that law which we aren't able to keep - the Bible says if you break any bit of that law then you have broken all of it and are deserving of death, but Christ died in our place to take that punishment for us if we have faith in him for the remission of our sins.

In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind...and to love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:40). This doesn't mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today though. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of "loving God" and "loving your neighbor." The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor.

Now, if you want to be technical and say the laws of Leviticus, specifically 18:22 "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman" and 20:13 "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable; they are to be put to death" were only for the nation of Israel at that time, the New Testament also echoes that in 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men".

This isn't saying that homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom, it's saying that homosexual "offenders" won't, the 'men who have sex with men' or women with women. The Bible doesn't describe homosexuality as a "greater" sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshiper, murderer, thief, etc. He promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, if you have faith in Christ.
(last edited by tRIUNE on 01-03-12 05:42 PM)

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Posted on 01-03-12 09:56 PM BNuge is Offline     Post: 72 words - Spell checked - (ID: 524170) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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Hoochman :

"you have most rights that any other citizen has"

Not all. Most. People who are straight naturally get more rights.


"The military is for serving a country."

With DADT active, a gay person can not serve the country without denying who they are. Repealing it makes your statement more accurate. With it repealed, anyone can join the military and serve out country.


tRIUNE :

That does make sense. Thanks for explaining it.


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Posted on 01-10-12 06:05 PM catfight09 is Offline     Post: 10 words - (ID: 528788) - Post Rating: 0 - Report Abuse | Link
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I've never asked my pastor about it at all honestly.

Larry Koopa
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