Sura [9:30] The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? http://quran.com/9

From the Authorized English Translation of the Qur'an: [9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated. http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.html

At the top of the page it states that Sura 9 Has no Basmalah. Every Sura in the Quran opens with the statement "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful," known as the Basmalah, with the exception of Sura 9. Here it says, 'now we learn that the missing Basmalah plays a significant role as a glaring sign from the Most Gracious, Most Merciful, that Sura 9 has been tampered with and must be purified.'

Here, http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html is another translation:
[9:30]
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Please keep in mind that ANY translation of the Qur'an will most definitely contain errors, USC's List of Corrections, also here is Wikipedia's article on the At-Tawba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba

Perhaps these translations have been corrupted by man from the original Arabic language but they all state the same concept, thus the difference between Muslims and Islamic extremists, are the ones who are leaving it up to God 'to condemn, curse, fighteth, destroy the Jews and Christians,' or who are taking it into their own hands. Aside from all of this, I'm not condoning the burning of the Koran. [Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.] -Romans 12:19

What exactly did I take out of context? Praytell, enlighten me. And honestly, from what it sounds like, you think you know a few things about religion but do you really? I can quote scripture fron the Torah or the Bible but do I really know about the motivations behind all Jews or Christians based on that? No, without the history of the specific people I am looking at I can know nothing.

You want to know why these Islamic radicals exist? They are not trying to kill people because they are Jewish or Christian. They do it because we are members of the Western world, a group that has repeatedly attacked them, taken their lands, and defaced their shrines. Example 1: the Crusades... the supposed holy wars were really a land grab and excuse to slaughter a people of a different faith. Remember, Jews were persecuted and murdered too at this time... all non-Christians were. Example 2: the division of the Ottoman Empire after WWI amongst the European powers, mostly Britain and France. Guess who got persecuted? Example 3: Israel's creation after WWII. Britian controlled the area at the time, kicked the Palestinians out with no discussion and gave the good land to the Jews... the European Jews. Then relenquished control of the region. So what do the native people see? That's right, white people coming in yet again and taking their land. Most of the fighting between Israel and the Palestinians is over land and water, as well as access to Jerusalem and other holy sites. If they had divided Israel at the start to give Palestine good land and water as well then most of the problems there would not be happening. If they had talked with the Palestinians before taking the land this would not be happening. These are all things I have heard said by Jewish people, by supporters of Israel!

Hoochman : *sigh* I am tired of this. It is going no where. I think it would be easier for me to convince a coke to turn into a pepsi than to explain to you why what you say has flaws. You act like everyone else is blind or stupid and just won't even listen to what anyone says. Is there a difference between what the zealots burning these books are doing and what the nazis did? no. none at all, they can say whatever they want but its obvious they hate Muslims. I have shown you passages that show they believe in forgiveness, I have shown you bible verses showing that the bible says even if some of them do burn the bible its not right to do it back. I have shown you scripture that shows Christianity said a lot of the same things about them as the Koran did about Christians. I get tired of debating with someone who obviously isn't listening and won't ever budge no matter how many people try to explain why he is wrong. What they want to do is Religious Oppression, it violates the First Amendment, and is just plain wrong. but I am done with this thread.

Elara has got a good point there is more to it then just one religion hating the other. If people in Iraq where doing what we are doing over here in the USA we would be just as extremist as them. We would be shooting people to protect our own land.

I'm no history expert but if you look back in time, all bloodshed results in similar fashion whether someone is provoking someone else or if they are occupying something they should not be occupying.

KKK for example wanted to protect America and preserve whites because blacks were occupying their territory. They probably could care less about blacks in other countries but when they are invading their land it got bloody.

Now we have a black president and illegals have taken over this country. People are looking at it the wrong way, doesn't really have anything to do with race or religion most of it is people occupying territory that they should not be.

When whites hate Obama we get labeled as KKK, but the truth is he does not belong in there he is a puppet for Wall Street and the bankers. But people continue to pull the race card or religious card when it has little to do with the real problem at hand. The real problem is illegals invading our country and corporate america using them to make profits.

I don't care what race or religion you are if you break in my house I will shoot you that is the general concept here all about territory that is what war is all about; territory and power. Race and religion are just the back bone to help progress the hidden agenda.

All I'm pointing out is that these guys on the videos are no better than the Islamic radicals. I do know that there is a minority of Quran-only Muslims that don't believe in the Hadith. The Hadith may teach of peace concerning the violent scriptures of the Quran, but nowhere do they remove "Jews and Christians" from [9:30]. All Muslims have to make an individual choice of how to interpret and apply "Jews and Christians."

While the Qur'an may have originated in the experience of Muhammad, it does not read like history, as the Bible does, but like a series of general pronouncements intended for individual and communal instruction and guidance. This is certainly how Muslims have applied the Qur'an over the centuries. There has been much discussion and dispute among Islamic scholars as to which verses (usually later, Medinan ones) abrogate others (usually earlier, Meccan ones), but the message itself is considered timeless and not limited to specific social conditions or historical situations.

Many verses in the Qur'an and teachings in the Hadith speak very disparagingly of Christians and especially of Jews. For the most part, when Muslims hear these verses chanted or these teachings expounded in Friday sermons, they are not encouraged to believe that these words apply only to the Jewish tribes in Medina during the lifetime of Muhammad. On the contrary, such verses and teachings are often applied to Jews living today. No less than an Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca explicitly applies Qur'an 5:60 to today's Jews and calls them "apes and pigs." This projection of Muhammad's context onto today's context is far from unique. Islam as it has evolved is a religion that decontextualizes history. Muslims frequently ignore the historical context when applying their own scriptures, and so they have no cause for complaint when others do likewise.

Restoring the textual context to some verses often makes the Qur'an seem even more harsh and intolerant. Muslims themselves - and not just so-called "extremists" but established authorities - have always quoted verses from the Qur'an apart from their historical context and have applied them to contemporary issues. The many verses quoted in the Shari'a have been used throughout history by Muslims to justify their conquests. They have been used by Islamic scholars and jurists precisely the way Islam's apologists admonish non-Muslims not to use them. They have been used to justify violent jihad.

Since Muhammad was involved in many battles, the Qur'an has much to do with fighting. But far more numerous than verses encouraging Muslims to fight are verses expressing religious intolerance and God's hatred and rejection of the nonbeliever. While the later Suras tend to be more violent, religious intolerance is sprinkled throughout the Qur'an. And yes, I can list all the violent scriptures. All I'm saying is that the guys on the videos have the mentality that the peaceful Muslims have the potential to come to a "deeper understanding" of what the Qur'an teaches, so they want to eliminate that possibility but in so doing they become radicals themselves.

Wow. That's wicked close-minded of him. Burning Qu'rans isn't going to solve anything. In fact, it's more than likely going to make things worse. Bashing another person's religion doesn't move things forward. It just keeps us in an eternal standstill.

Plus he has some sort of vendetta against a group he thinks he knows everything about, but is missing a good 60% of the facts. :| I am disappointed in him. I thought adults were supposed to act mature.

You would think that, iBock, but the truth is often disappointing.

Jigsaw... not going into off-topic argument but just stating I disagree with the Obama statements you made. Also, your real problem existed long before he was elected. But yeah, anyway.

I think metal has a good idea.

No iBOCK you just don't like to acknowledge the truth about Islam.
And if being close minded is about acknowledging the cold truth than I gladly am a part of that crowd.

metal572 : Its not that I haven't listened. I have to listen to that same argument almost everyday. I just know that bull being sold isn't true. Oh and you take Such Old Testament verses out of context. Christians don't live by the OT anymore because it was for Israel, and is still passed down in memory of the past, but we and Israel is not under the OT anymore. I already explained why these people are different than Nazis and I'm tired of constantly explaining in every post.

Elara : They deserve no sympathy. And that is a load of crap that we and Israel have been oppressive to them. All we've done is defend against those murderers. And no Israel and the Arabs actually hate each other because of them both being sister races as they are both descended from Abraham and they both think they are under covenant.

Hoochman : ok i was going to leave but I cant let this one go. You and those book burning people are oppressive, and if being blind means i judge people fairly as individuals and can understand how they as a whole are given a bad name by extremists than I love being blind. You have 0 tolerance for anyone who views something differently. Nazi's did not like different view points and neither do people supporting this. the nazis burned anything against what they said which is what these people are doing. These people must think we are stupid to believe they have no problem with Muslims. Also I will once again show you this bible verse
“Do not repay evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord’. No, ‘if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads’. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12: 17-21)

now tell me how you justify it now? you are a christian and Christians live by the bible right? show me the justification for ignoring this verse.

geeogree : This thread should to be closed. Even I can't look at this without getting mad.


metal572 : Now you're really spouting bull crap about me. Really keep going, after the week I had I could use a good laugh. I'm not intolerant or oppressive, I just don't appreciate how Islam has ordered genocide. WRT the verse, these people aren't taking revenge and it says to live by peace if possible. Again it is possible to love a person without condoning what he does. Taking revenge would be these people murdering Muslims just like what they do to us.

Hoochman : Either party has the right to burn whatever they want, but the fact that they are making a public proclamation of it is instigating violence which is contrary to what Jesus taught.

tRIUNE : I still have no problem with burning Quarans. It depends on the motives of these men. If I felt they had personal malice against Muslims, which I only think the guy in second video has, I'd be against it. Other than that, the act of burning a Quaran is of no bother to me.

Hoochman, I have centuries worth of hard evidence and historical records as well as a college degree to back up my statements. You have blind ignorance, racism, and hatred to support yours. You ignore quotes from scripture, from the Koran, from historical text. It is obvious that you refuse to see truth or even consider the merits of the arguments of others. For that, I can only pity you.

while that statement was a flame I see this thread going nowhere and becoming a problem.

I think we can all agree that burning the Koran is not going to produce any positive results.

I'm gonna close this thread before it gets out of hand. If anyone has something really important to say then tell me and I'll consider opening the thread again.